Gardening Energy UP, Pain and Depression DOWN

That's interesting, pix. Please, no one, take my comments as anything other than must my unmaliced thoughts, OK? This is all fascinating to me on an objective front, and probably extremely helpful on a practical front.

Katie & Pix are treading on expert ground that goes SO far beyond anything I can figure out, but here's my problem with the same service/policies: Perhaps I don't think people should be able to bill insurance for multiple (or even one) in vitro procedures? What if, based on my lifestyle, I don't expect to need a liver transplant so don't want to subsidize those who do? What if I'm thin & don't think bariatric procedures for someone who eats more than I do should be covered? What if I think that a person should be kept medically alive until the electricity accidentally gets shut off?

OK, the above is NOT necessarily me; I'm just trying to think of areas where demand for/expectations of what we are owed medically would differ wildly.

I would like to proffer another point, with my memory jogged by something I just posted elsewhere:

Maybe chiropractors are legit & help people. For me, they don't. I was treated for awhile over a pinched nerve in my shoulder blade or neck that nearly immobilized me. Massage & chiropracty would relieve the pain for awhile but it seemed chronic.

And then I discovered yoga. Yoga will stop ANY back pain in its tracks, in my experience. (Of course, I don't have missing discs or anything.) But in the classes I've taught, there were always people who insisted that their unique situation precluded them gaining any benefits from yoga, they were too special, their problems too entrenched. Now, these were people with serious problems, no doubt about it. But it seemed pretty clear to me that they didn't want to do the "work" that required to heal if it meant consistently changing their behavior & committing to the discipline of something like yoga. They wanted the outside world to fix the problem.

Why am I ranting about this? Oh yeah -- if insurance covered yoga for back problems, would that solve some of the problems we're talking about? I think not, because it requires people to take responsibility for some of their health issues. And getting back to katie, that's what I meant about my overweight friends who, as I've said elsewhere, are exhausting the medical community with their many & varied illnesses, but not doing anything personally to change their circumstances.

SK, funny, I'm kind of like you as far as health care goes. I avoid antibiotics and antibacterial products ( big believer in the "hygiene hypothesis"). I, however, was sick a lot as a kid. (I think my mother's heavy menthol smoking had a lot to do with it, however). But, I'm not taking chances with tetanus.

I cannot for the life of me imagine wanting to spend time hanging out at a Dr's office or hospital. What I want when I go to the Dr. is to have them do what I ask them to do and resolve any real problems that may turn up. I also expect them to take me seriously and take the time to answer or address questions or concerns if I have any. Plus I don't want them doing extra or unneeded tests. I'd also like it if they bill correctly. I will get very worked up if I get into dealing with insurance companies, so I think I won't. Let's just leave it at "frustrated".

I do think that they key to improving health care is to change to a focus on regular, basic preventative care and health education for everyone. Everyone should have the ability to get little things taken care of, to do the prevention before it gets to the expensive part. That alone would relieve a huge amount of the costs that get spread around rather unevenly. Lots of towns are experimenting with interesting variations on this and are getting good results.

Pix, any chance your Dr is part of some kind of statistical analysis or other study on the prevalence of std's?

One thing I am having an interesting time watching right now is the difference in what aging can be like when you take care of yourself and when you don't. The differences are striking and are making me want to make more changes to how I'm living my life. Not by hanging out at the Dr's office, but changing how I approach taking care of myself other ways.

And, I love yoga! It's made all the difference in the world in my tight, sore hips. Still working on back/shoulders, but oh, starting yoga is definitely up there on smarter things I've ever done. (Still a beginner, though) I cut back a lot over the summer and all that's done is reinforce how beneficial it really is. I start again on Monday-yay!!!!

Chiropractic healed Dh's back and bulged disc enough that it never ruptured. Two epidurals and threats of surgery before chiro. Now, periodic chiro visits and that's all-and less chiro when he's doing yoga also. Chiro helps me with the residuals from a mid-back injury I got from lifting something too heavy the wrong way, but I need it less with yoga as well. The chiros we see actually encourage yoga and can tell the difference in my back, etc, when I'm going to lots of classes or not.

I've never had a professional massage, though. I'm a little uncomfortable with it and don't know how to find someone I'd be comfortable with.

Interesting discussion, and many differing opinions, which support the fact that healthcare is not a one-size-fits-all thing. Each of us has to find what works for us and whatever stage of life we are in. Myself, I make sure I get all the regular exams like mammo, colonoscopy, eye exam, blood work, yearly physical with both my internist and gyn. Those visits and tests are my birthday presents to myself. My celiac disease I handle myself with lots of research and self care, after consulting with the gastroenterologist who does my colonoscopy every three years. I avoid antibiotics unless I am on death's door, exercise lots, and never weigh myself unless my size 8 Levis get tight. So for me, it's all about preventive care and at age 62 I feel that's appropriate.

Now, I will bare my soul a bit, and this is something I have told to very few people. About 15 years ago when I was still married to a physician, I went to my gyn for my regular exam. I had been her patient for at least 4 years and she knew my husband as well. I was a very faithful wife with 7 kids and working as an architect (who has time to fool around?) and I assumed my husband was as well. Several days after my exam she called me in my office and asked me to stop by after work. She would not tell me anything over the phone. She had heard a rumor about my husband and decided to do an std test, and it was positive for something that has the capability of causing cervical cancer. I had my cervix frozen twice, which was not a big deal, but I also realized that my husband, who proclaimed his undying love for me and our family, was not such a good guy after 25 years of marriage. Three years later we divorced but not only as a result of his infidelity - there were other issues as well. I am so appreciative of my doctor's sensitivity to my situation and to her intuition. Today I am happy and healthy.

My favorite quote:
"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." Anais Nin

Dittos Judi - not all of us are alike: one size fits all works well with very few things, with the exception of tents.
My philosophy is based on diet & the old adage - you are what you eat. For me, food is fuel, not an event. Exercise in the sense of "movement" is also key. I don't think it's necessary to work out at a gym, but movement is. The level of intensity being left up to the individual.
If the individual does not want to invest time in learning about & providing optimum care for themselves, then they will seek out someone who will do this for them. I don't expect anyone to subsidize me, and I sure don't want to subsidize those who don't care about the health of their own system (body).
Balance in everything.
I have been involved with alternative medicine for 35 years, and it has worked quite well for me.
I do not have annual anything, with the exception of having complete bloodwork done every 4 - 6 months, and visits to certain Nurseries, LOL.
Your body is a vehicle in which you navigate life. At this point in time, we only get one; some replacement parts are available. My preference is to do anything I can to strengthen myself physically, in order to prolong my ability to move. Discovering I was borderline diabetic at the age of 35 years ago shook me out of my complacency. The investment of time & energy to seek excellence in health has been worth it. My health is my responsibility.

Sue, nope, no study. And no rumors about my dh, either. I would have appreciated being given the option and if I were more in charge of what my insurance dollars are spent on, I think I would save them some money.
And yes, portland is right that this discussion only highlights the facts that healthcare is not only NOT a one-size-fits all, but it pays to try lots of things if you have a condition that seems 'chronic' or 'like it can't be fixed'. Add yoga to the clinic of my dreams as I completely agree with summerkid about that. But the value of yoga has nothing whatever to do with the value or lack thereof of a good chiropractor. There are quacks in every profession. I go to mine when I feel like I need to and can benefit. I've never been disappointed. He also recommends yoga.
Now summer's hypothetical questions can be a bit of a slippery slope. Take them out of the insurance field and see how they look.. I send my kids to private schools and always have. I guess I shouldn't have to pay taxes to send other people's kids to public schools. Katie59 doesn't have any kids so I guess she shouldn't have to pay those taxes, either. Likewise I never, ever use most of the public parks in this county, not to mention the entire state. I use only a few out of the many available to me. I shouldn't have to pay just because other people want to use them or just because they haven't made all the 'right' choices and so they don't have a really big yard for their kids to play in. Or how about this: I work less than 5 miles from my office and use the highway only occasionally when I'm forced to do so by lack of other roads available. Maybe I shouldn't have to pay for those, either, just because there are some people who must just want to suffer more by driving to Seattle every day. Oh, and, of course, both my kids were born healthy because I took care of myself while pregnant and was extremely lucky. Premature babies are very expensive. Why should I pay for that?
Just playing devil's advocate here because I'm not sure I would want to live in a world where everyone was left to completely fend for him/herself regardless of their circumstances.

I heartily agree with everything in the previous 3 posts. I LOVE how smart people are out here in the PNW.

Whoops, make that previous FOUR posts. Pixy was thinking as I typed.

Pixy, that all speaks to my point. How on earth would we agree on just a couple of policies for health care?

I am all for the social net & public schools, even though I have no kids & my extended family pretty much home-schools. As I ponder everything that's being raised here, it does remind me that the U.S. does do a lot of things right and that, for most of us in the middle class, health care works pretty well for us -- we have access to a vast array of practitioners and the resources to afford them. Sure, we have to go around with insurance companies once in awhile & disagree with the consensus of the majority in where our tax dollars should go, but heck, I feel that way every time I get pulled over by a cop, too.

Pix don't scare me like that - for a minute there I thought you were serious!

Talk about taking responsibility, yesterday I was leaving the park with my dog and I watched as a young couple got ready to drive away with their approx 2 year old kid sitting on the mother's lap in the front passenger seat. Things like that make me angry. What is our responsibility in those kinds of situations? Is it none of our business? I wanted to offer to buy them a car seat!

Pix, I've met your DH. He's a wonderful guy. Very obviously not the kind that cheats. :)

Katye, I have to take exception to your contention that tents are one size fits all. They most certainly are not- I was just at REI yesterday and there are many sizes of tents for different purposes. ;)

I suspect that SK was trying to push our buttons just a little to see where we'd go with this. I think we've all passed. ;)

I like these discussions better at night when I can take more time. For now, I need to go manufacture more vit. D.

Well, CPT codes are 'procedural' codes, by definition. And the people who need to be present are generally the 'provider' and the 'member' or 'subscriber'. I think psychology codes are generally unique in that there are codes that pertain to group therapies. Funny, I would have said that the physical health side was more straightforward than the mental health side. :-)

Summerkid, remember that there are some people who don't benefit from yoga and think it's a bunch of hooey. Health care and therapies are specific to certain conditions, not all of which are worn on the outside.

Not all insurance is the same. There is a major company up here who covers (that is, the employer negotiated this coverage with the insurance company for its employees and pays for it) autism treatments. There are a lot of people out there who think that there aren't any proven treatments for autism. But most of those people aren't living with autism first-hand.

And what if you had a a disease that made you overweight? Why shouldn't bariatric surgery be covered for you? You are definitely coming off as a health person who assumes that everybody started out with the same potential for health that you did. Each of us has his own story. OTH, I appreciate your straightforward and though-provoking comments. It makes for good discussion.

Pix, there are certainly those days when I don't feel that I should have to pay for other people's kids. But, OTH, I know that I benefit from living in an educated population. And my Social Security (which I DO believe in) is dependent on those little creatures growing up and earning good wages to feed into my retirement pool. Likewise, there's part of me that doesn't want to have to pay for the addict on the street to get tested for TB. But I don't want him to give multi-drug-resistant TB to someone who gives it to me, so it IS in my best interest to make sure that he gets healthcare.

No matter how independent we are, we are all interconnected and dependent on one-another. It's foolish freeloading to think otherwise, IMO.

No matter how "screwed up" our healthcare system is -- and I put that in quotes because I hear that all over the news -- the fact remains that it is only in this century that the word "humane" has been thrown around so liberally and that the majority of people are in agreement that health care at some level is a basic human right. That is progress, in my opinion. What we're arguing about now is how to get there. Sounds a little bit like the different religions trying to explain how to get to God . . .

Aw, Susy, no, I wasn't trying to push people's buttons. Intentionally, anyway. And Katie, it is true that my judgmental side is an ugly minotaur that tries to roar his way out sometimes.

But yes, everyone got 100 on the un-test.

Yesterday, driving from Lincoln City to Newport ON A SATURDAY AFTERNOON like a nincompoop, I was getting a bit frustrated at all the people driving 25 in a 30mph zone, which pretty much describes Hwy 101. I understand why we have to drive slowly but ... I tried to do like Sofer & be grateful for someone slowing me down BUT STILL.

Then it occurred to me that one of those slow drivers may save my life someday by not slamming into me because I can't take my eyes off the ocean when it's in view.

Though there are many mornings since the move that I've woken full of dread, terror & crushing loneliness, but goshamighty it's hard to be depressed surrounded by so much glory.

Well, Summerkid, you represented a point of view that needed representing. And you started a provocative discussion. Guess what I was still thinking about when I was out busting my behind in the yard? We don't learn as much from the easy discussions. At the very least they make us solidify our own point of view, right?

And I got 100!! Yippee. Don't know when was the last time I got 100 on anything. Heh heh.

A few years ago not long after I'd moved onto my little acre of Heaven, my girlfriend came to visit with her husband and two little boys. At one point she was standing over the kitchen sink and looking out the window. I asked if she was okay. She said, "I was just thinking that you have this all to yourself and how nice that is." When I'm feeling lonely, I think back on that.

Some days I'm overwhelmed thinking of the trees I need to cut down, the burning I have to do, the watering and edging, weed composting, fence repair, bed-making. And all that before even planting. I've learned (mostly) to focus on one thing at a time and that usually gets me through.

Boy I spend a day in the garden and I can't keep up. First Summer I being a normal male worry about the others perception of my dimple. But I have found that all men are different and I have seen many differences and still garden naked.
Second Summer I too do not fear death but each time I faced it I fought like heck to stay alive.
Third most of you speak like people who are guaranteed to have health insurance probably paid by your employer. Those of us who are uninsurable fear the cost of health insurance when we lose it from our health insurance provider. Then we are unable to be cared for on some of the simplest medical issues we will face. Hence Alternative coverage for the basic needs of health. Sure enough only those who are wealthy can afford their own payments of health insurance. And at the rate of increase the health professionals continue to enjoy even the wealthy will fall behind. Those of us with previous conditions both myself and my wife will have to take a walk in the woods in the winter to ease our suffering.

Work party at katie's? My friends & I used to do that occasionally. We'd all get together at someone's house & just put in a couple of hours pooling our (minimal) skills & resources. We were all journalistic eggheads at the time. I had lived without knobs on my $6,000 worth of custom cabinets for MONTHS because I had no idea how to drill holes in the right place. With a friend standing by offering encouragement & advice, we made a cardboard template & I drilled my holes & the cabinets magically did NOT crack in half & in minutes the knobs were on!!! Easy peasy. And there was an absolutely useless light fixture in the hallway that we replaced with a new one, after shutting off the power & someone saying, "OK, I think you just put that red wire where that other red wire was ..."

I am seriously skilled at construction these days but back then it felt like such a gift to have those 2 insurmountable obstacles off my plate!

Steve - I'm with you (did you read my post?). Basic health care is a right, in my opinion. I want to have it and I want my neighbors to have it - pre-existing conditions or not.

When I was first looking for my acre, my SIL said, "Why do you need that much property?" I said, "I want to be able to go out into the yard naked." She said, "How often do you plan on doing that?" I said, "Maybe never, but I want to have that option." I found out that gardening naked here would be dangerous with the blackberries, salmonberries, thimbleberries, dewberries, native roses and especially with those skeeters!! But I'm happy to have the option . . .

Whoops, I take so long to compost posts that other ones pop in. Sofer, I know what you mean -- once Jack cuts me off his health insurance, I'll be SOL unless I get a job with benefits.

SK, I just about spit out my Mike's. What a nice gesture. But I'm afraid I have to much of the, "I want to do it myself"s. My place is coming along, just another 6 or 7 years and then I'll be ready to move everything around again. :-D

Last year we did a few work parties, Rachierabbit's, Pixydish's, Outtamygourd's. It was fun. I know what you mean by getting that little boost from other people. I'm seriously pyrophobic and have several years' worth of slash and yard debris to burn. This year I will do it after the rains start. But I think I'll need some help from my neighbor (who gets his yardwaste pile going with propane). I don't think I have a strong enough heart for that, but hopefully I can get rid of the pile of brush in the middle of my yard.

Yes Kathy I did but those who speak about the "superior" quality of our health care are only those who can afford it. I for one cannot. I think that challenging the health care companies with an alternative will make them group us together and allow all to share the cost of basic services. Heart, liver transplants, expensive chemotherapy, and long term care are reserved to those who can pay.

I don't think our coverage of people is superior . . . but the quality of our health care is better than in most places in the world. We just need to make it available in a different way. You are right about competition - either that or MUCH better regulation, like mandating preventive care coverage . .

We need competition in the health care and remove it from the insurances companies who have unlimited resources to eliminate you. Also Tort Reform is primary. Just with that and our health care goes unchanged and the cost is reduced to less than 1/2 of what it is now.

OK, so I seriously considered Steve's affinity to gardening nekkid. Sorry this picture is out of focus, but I was frantically trying to keep the blood off of my "good" gardening clothes. I reflected back on a couple of other threads, i.e. "is it just my bees/" and "spiders! everywhere!, and opted to keep a few of my clothes on as I looked at the batch of overgrown blackberries in the back of my main flowerbed that I was attacking..
I must admit, however, that one of my criteria for finding the current home place was that I didn't have to walk WAY back to the house to pee after enjoying my beer while working in the hot sun.

And, back to the serious discussion, it is too bad that there isn't some kind of compromise between what the medical profession would like to charge and what the insurance companies are willing to pay. Both sides are extreme.

Yeowch! It always seems to me that it doesn't hurt so much when it happens, but the sting when you're in the shower is plenty. So the beer is for medicinal purposes to dull the pain, right?

The BEER is for creativity.

Ahhh . . .

Sofer I agree with you. I am also one of the uninsurable people because I have a hip replacement from a ski accident/arthritis and celiac disease. Oregon has OMIP (Oregon Medical Insurance Pool) for those with previous conditions but it is terribly expensive so most people on it have very high deductibles. My monthly payment is very high as is my deductible. OMIP contracts with Regence Blue Cross Blue Shield to administer the program. But what happens to those who can't afford any kind of coverage? I agree the insurance companies need competition and I support a single payer system where all people have equal access to care. Our country has wonderful healthcare and incredible advances and technologies, but those advantages are available only for a select group of patients. Treatment should not be based on ability to pay, and insurance companies should not be able to dictate if and how you receive treatment.

I'm sure many of you will disagree with me, and maybe this is not in keeping with DG rules, but I just had to respond to Sofer's comments.

Here, here, Judi!!

100% agreement here, Soferdig and Judi.
I do, however, take exception to the comment about 'the rate of increase the health professionals continue to enjoy'. Boy, is that ever wrong, at least on this end. I can't speak for heart surgeons, but little old psychotherapists have been taking it in the hind end. One of the best insurance companies to deal with, Uniform Medical Plan, just farmed out their mental health insurance to Aetna, who has not raised their allowable rates in over 17 years. I just cancelled my contract with them. The payments are about 40% less than what Uniform Medical paid. Now the rates are so low I cannot afford to be a provider for them.
Now, I agree heartily that everyone bills at too high a rate. The problem is manifold: allowable rates are determined by the average rate billed by similar professionals in your geographic area, so people who low-ball their rates bring everyone else down, insurance contracts pay the same amount for the same service to each provider in the same category regardless of what the provider bills, and more and more people have a co-insurance payment (a percentage of the cost) rather than a set co-payment. That's just the beginning of the problem. Long and short of it is that I don't collect anything near what I bill for. And I would much, much rather work with someone on a cash basis and skip the billing altogether. My overhead would be reduced so much that I would be able to easily afford to give services for 50% of what I have to charge now.

i think it's like our tax system. It's so complicated and there are so many, many variables that it's almost impossible to fix it without making a drastic change.

Katie, you did know that my questions about why I should pay were intended to be 'devil's advocate', right?

Pix I agree with you about provider reimbursement. Health professionals in most of care have seen their reimbursement rates remain stagnant or decline while the cost of practicing has risen. Healthcare professionals for the most part work hard, take on a lot of responsibility, and have the best interest of their patients at heart, while insurance companies make hugh profits for denying patients care when they need it most. Each month we pay large premiums for something we are not sure we will get if and when we need it. ?????

I'd rather pop Vit D pills than garden nekked - too many bugs and scratchy plants! Besides, you wouldn't have a back pocket for your clippers.

Sharon, thank you for starting this thread. It has given us a chance to vent!

Yeah, Pix. I think we all agree on the basics, the "devil" is in the details . . . when would I be willing to pay for other people's healthcare (mammogram) and when would I not (cosmetic surgery).

Again, having worked at Premera Blue Cross for years . . . not all health care professionals are seeing increases and not all are seeing declines. It's just like corporate business; there are definitely some that are raking in the bucks. The interesting part to me is the discussion about what is reasonable. Some people feel like they are justified in earning a whole lot more than the market can bear, regardless of all the signs to the contrary. They just try to bill for as many things as once as they can, regardless of whether they actually did all those procedures or not. You'd be amazed at what behaviors people can justify . . .

We have Federal Blue Cross and Medicare so we do fine with insurance. The thing that bugged me is when we went on Medicare and it took over 80 % of our costs, Blue Cross who now pays 20% didn't lower their rates at all. THat's really a rip-off.

I heard a great article on NPR - 60 or 70% of doctors polled want a public option. Another 10% think there should be ONLY a public option. Despite that, the AMA's position is for no public option. Hmmm - I wonder who's sold out to which lobbyists.

Apparently it used to be that docs felt like Medicare reimbursement was was too low. Now they feel like the Federal Government reimbursement is more fair than private payers. Whoa - that says a lot.

For those who are interested:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112818960

I am too frustrated with the current system I defer to waiting.

This message was edited Sep 14, 2009 10:05 PM

Interesting article Katie59. Thanks for posting it.

On 8/4/09 Gov Kulongoski signed HB 2116. HB2116 in a nut shell creates a tax on medical insurance premiums as partial funding for increased access to healthcare for the uninsured,low income adults,uninsured children through a new program called " Health Care for All Oregon Children".
I have already received a notice from my insurance carrier that my premiums will go up Oct 1,2009.

It is getting scary how much health care is costing. When I turned 50 a few years ago, they sent me a birthday note congratulating me on reaching this "milestone" and a note stating that they must raise my rates 25 %, What a joke. I had to raise my out of pocket deductible to a higher amount just so I could manage the premiums for my daughters and myself..
I don't know what the answer is, but I can tell you I am tired of what is going on in the industry but I am not willing to turn my health care over to the goverment.

I do not think a public option will help as many as they think. If you are low income or poor I think the priority would be to keep a roof over your head and food on the table, not health insurance sadly.

My thought is that the public option would allow those who don't have any options to have at least that one. And that the existence of the public option would provide competition to help keep down costs. Private care could exist as it does today and nobody would lose what they already had.

I can't tell you how much waste there was at Premera - payments to consultants, wasted efforts at change that ultimately got thrown in the toilet.

What drives those big companies is outdated payment systems and a culture that hates change. The executives are happy sitting on what they know, but not one of them had any vision about how much better it could be. And they hated the insurance commissioner for holding them accountable.

Knowing the insurance company execs hated the ins. commissioner for making them accountable leaves me with less than warm fuzzies for ins companies.....

My ins co paid less than 10% of the recent normal lab test & mammography screenings-no weird tests or anything, just standard stuff. I'm not liable for the balance, but that's crazy! [rant deleted for my sanity and peace of mind, lol]