Fujishibori TryingTo Double?

This morning I had a Fujishibori with a modified petal/stamen! Has anyone else seen this in Fujishibori? Being this is the first time I've grown it, I don't know if this is something new or common.

X

Hi X,

I have infrequently seen this occur, where the flower makes a tube flag; here is a link to the photo http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=6917348. I had a flower on my Beach of Milky Way vine do what your Fujishibori has done, it's pretty cool to see, isn't it?

Joseph


This message was edited Aug 14, 2009 11:05 AM

nice to see you posting, X. to tell the truth, the one I grew from Gourd last summer was mostly too high up to get a good look to know one way or another. What a fun cross it might be to cross your Fujishibori with the two kinds of double mutants of I. nil -

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/224671/ - I grew this one out from seeds from Gardener2005, and she said it was I. youjiro, and someone else called it Kikyosaki - I. youjiro 'Kikyosaki'? This is also known as a masaki mutant asagao - see http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1012211/ - there's a list of other double maskai nils that are propagated the way we're more familiar with.

The other type of double nil is propagated like the demono mutants, also on the above link about mutants. Wouldn't it be something to cross your Fujishibori with Bhotan or one its double relatives?

Dream on, huh?

karen

oops - Joseph, we crossed in the ether

I have the Fujishibori growing next to Kikyozaki (is that the same as your Kikyosaki blue?) It will be interesting to see if anything crossed .. I doubt it though because the majority of the anthers & stigma in the Fuji are brown or black and shriveled upon opening .. the few that opened white I've been hand pollinating and sequestering the flowers. Hope I get some seeds from the Fuji .. I have 2 more seeds of the purebreds so I'll grow those out next year and sequester the plant so there won't be chance of a cross.

On the other hand, the Kikyo is chock full of seed pods .. started harvesting today.

X

i love this one because its freckled (on wish list). some says it smells wonderful does it X?

This message was edited Aug 14, 2009 12:47 PM

X, I'm indoors right now because I'm not *feeling my oats* - so any spelling right now for Kikyos(z)aki is fine by me at this time lol. In fact, mispelling something seems like a harmless way to take out one's irritation at a bad back, while mg vines continue merrily tangling along. Joseph, how is your mg untangling coming along?
----------------------------

X, with regard to your Fujishibori's anthers being "brown or black and shriveled upon opening", could it be high summer temperatures where you are? My mgs aren't blooming yet, so I can't compare with you on this one.

-----------------------

I've heard it said by others, and I found it to be true over last summer and winter while Fujishibori was growing for me, that seed production was especially low.

However, I also noticed that when I wiggled the flower facing down, that I got viable seed, but not when I wiggled it facing up (I harvested grand total of 2 seeds whoop). I wonder if this has something to do with my Fujishibori being a "pins", which is where the anthers are lower than the pistil. Wiggling the flower facing down would result in gravity bringing the pollen down on the pistil. See Ron's pins & thrums post - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=3107606 .

Colin mentioned that he could help us with this pins and thrums business. Colin, if you could shed any more light on pins & thrums, that would be fantastic.

Also, using paint brushes like Becky does, instead of wiggling, might boost seedpod production for nils, too...

Karen

Oh wow that Blue is absolutely gorgeous; some fantastic posts here....and there is me all I have to play with is the purist..

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/224671/

The temps have been in the upper 90's with lots n lots of humidity. I've found that if I'm up before 7am I can tear half the petals off the flowers (well you guys know I love to do that) with white anthers and stigma and they will stay white .. the pollen is usually released between 8:30 - 9:00. I just take my special flat needle nosed tweezers and remove some of the stamens and do it by hand, or if two flowers are close enough I'll just bring them together .. I seem to get better results that way than with using a brush .. I've come to the conclusion that a brush can damage the pollen as well as the stigma on some flowers if they are really fragile.

I haven't noticed a fragrance .. I haven't really been looking for one but I'll start checking .. I did notice that Gardeners Yojiro crosses had a lemony fragrance that last for about 15 minutes then disappeared.

The picture is the Fuji .. contrast & color enhanced for detail.

X

Hi Karen... pins and thrums is a term used by primula growers... primulas that are called pins have the stigma visible and the anthers bellow them, thrums the other way around... it's important to primula breeders as i dictates which plants can be crossed with which... but for self fertile ipomoeas i feel the term is just descriptive...

i have read that ipomoea hederacea has anthers and stigmas of very similar lengths(neither pin or thrum) and mostly selfs... because it's own pollen has the time advantage over any pollen aquired from other flowers and the closeness also gives greater seedsetting even without pollinator help... ipomoea purpurea has a stigma that is longer than the anthers(pin) giving the time advantage away a little in comparison and increases the need for pollinator help in getting the pollen onto the stigma this system theoretically increases diversity in the next generaion...

i've noticed that ipomoea nils seem to be quite variable... BAW's stigma and anthers are very close and the plant sets lots of seed even if i don't pollinate them by hand... Hanba has deformed styles and the stigma resides at the base of the flower whilst the stamens are normal in length(could loosely be described as thrum), they set less seed but if you tap the flowers the pollen will fall and more seed is set...

so in theory flowers with anthers and stigmas that are very close together will set more seed without pollinator help and self more often.... flowers with stigmas higher than the anthers favour both pollinator(tapping the flower)help and outcrossing and those with anthers higher than the stigma favour pollinator(tapping the flower)help too, but will also self more often...

I've noticed that the Seiwa strain which is derived from an I purpurea x I nil hybrid by Yoneda has the anthers just slightly higher than it's stigma(thrum) and so in theory should be mostly selfing!!! be nice to see if it does.... :-)

edited to add:
if you look at the first picture from X you can see the anthers at variable hights surrounding the stigma... this should make it easier for the flower to self... you can quite clearly see the pollen shedding from the anthers and all over the stigma in the second photo... i wonder if the little flag helps in pollination by taking advantage of breezes to knock the pollen of the anthers and on to the stigma?

This message was edited Aug 14, 2009 9:25 PM

Rareseedman, regarding the insulting name you have just called me, Bluespyron, I have only given the mg sticky index and over 50 collections of mg seeds to the gardeners of this forum and of this website out of a spirit of friendship, gratitude for what I've been given here, and with expectations of nothing but that people pass the favors forward to other folks. I do not bear any ill will to another soul on earth.

My posts have been from my own heart and mind, and if I have posted for another person, I have said so.

Surely the possibilities for all that is beautiful and loving can afford you some alternatives to the snarky behavior you have been displaying on this forum since your arrival?

Karen

Karen we all know you are a generous soul and we all love you. i think the change of name was wrong. know you have friends here always.

And that folks is why I only drop by occasionally. Used to be a great place until the war started.

Later!

X

Well said Marie. You do have lots of friends here Karen. We
appreciate your knowledgeable contributions to this forum and
your amazing generosity when it comes to sharing seeds.

X - Great photos (as always!), great blooms, and nice detail of the flags.

I get the tube flags on rare ocassions too. I don't think I have any photos though.

The only place I had seen them before was on the my mutant Blue Picotee strain which produced multiple flags and I haven't seen it on any of the other Fuji's so far. Colin's idea that they might be helpers for pollination is intriguing.

X

Beautiful photography X!!!

Thanks .. I do grow outs of seeds from the Picotee mutant strain every other year. I didn't grow out this year but will next .. I usually grow 3 plants and at least 1 throws mutants - I don't get very many seeds from them but so far it hasn't disappointed me as far as producing mutants, about every 3rd or 4th flower on a single vine. The vast majority of the mutants do not have viable reproductive parts, usually missing anthers. If a stigma is present I'll pollinate with whatever is blooming, normal or mutant that has pollen.

I'd like to get some double Red Picotee if anyone has them, to cross with my mutants to see if I can get the red to mutate.. I'll trade for some red with some seeds from my mutant blue. The color is slightly off because it was shot in the greenhouse.

X

X - I just started some double red picotee. If I get seeds, we could do a trade. :-) Or perhaps someone else here has the double red...

Your blue is beautiful! Love the mutant blooms! You are right, I get mutants on most all of my picotee. I grew white in the spring and saw mutations on those as well ...