Favorite Astilbe?

nice thread

Any H. paniculata trained as a standard will benefit from annual spring (or late fall) pruning. They are vigorous plants that will become top-heavy in just a few years. (I just this week saw one that was huge. I'll try to find it again and take a photo.) The nurseries where I purchase mine for clients cut the growth back to 12"-18" each spring. Since they bloom on new growth, it doesn't hurt them at all. Keep them nice and full. Also, cutting back will result in more, but smaller blooms, for a really full look- like a bouquet. It won't hurt to experiment for the first few years to see what you like. They sure are pricey though, right Snapple?

I googled "cutting back utterfly bushes" and it said November.
If the tulip bulbs come in late October I'll do it then.

ge1836: Don't worry about an exact month to cut back butterfly bushes. Do it whenever you need to get in to plant bulbs. Butterfly bushes almost always die back to the ground anyway. After the big flush of bloom in midsummer, I always cut mine back by half to stimulate a better rebloom. They will continue to bloom without this procedure, but I don't like all the dead blooms ruining the display.

Hoosier - What a coincidence! I had asked over in the Hydrangea forum what to do pruning-wise with 3 year old 'Limelight' but never got a response. It was a little thing when I got it (Bluestone) and even through last year, it had a lot of low growth. This year, it sent up one straight stem with smaller branches forming at the top where they turned into beautiful flowers. Space-wise, it would be great to keep it as a standard, especially after reading that they can get up to 15 ft tall if left alone. It's probably 3 1/2 ft tall right now. Should I just cut off the flowers after they dry up and leave the rest alone? Do I do anything with the smaller branches at the bottom? They didn't bloom which is perfectly ok but I just don't know what to do with them - cut them or leave them alone. It seems happy where it's at in my part-sun bed.
Snapple - I don't even know if 'Picta' is still available. I've probably had it for close to 10 years and can't remember where I got it but I think it was locally. Once the flowers fade, the variegation on the tiny leaves gives the whole shrub a nice soft glow in the shade. I've seen other varieties of Kerria growing in full sun but I don't know if this variegated one can take it. It does get some rebloom later in the season (would probably get a little more if it wasn't growing in clay - I'm now feeling terribly guilty about that!).

Thanks HG. I hard prune a shrub paniculata so I have a basic idea of what to expect. Without your advice though I'm not sure I would have been agressive enough. The $$$ wasn't too bad - $80.

Here is the bush.
Does this mean I can prune to half in say August and have a rebloom in Sept?

Gone for a few days and time to catch up! WOW, Snapple your pond area is gorgeous :) It looks "familiar" - if my memory hasn't totally failed me, isn't this the same area where you posted a few years back with the HUGE Salix 'Hakuro Nishiki'? Curious what your impression of 'My Monet' is - none of the growers in this area have been impressed with it but it might just be the heat and humidity that knocks it down here.

Re: Kerria, a love/hate relationship with it here! We have the double blooming Kerria japonica 'Pleniflora' and I love the double blooms and the fact that it grows AND blooms beautifully in almost full shade. However, it is quickly becoming a nightmare after 10+ years :( It is now taking up a 10' long and 6' wide space and I'm frantically removing suckers every year where it's creeping into the Hostas! If I let it do its thing it would be twice as big :( I planted a variegated Kerria j. 'Picta' last year because I love the foliage and everything I've found indicates it won't become the monster that 'Pleniflora' has - I can only hope I haven't made the same mistake all over again!

Cindy, I've basically all but given up on growing any of the Hydrangea macrophyllas here, i.e. All Summer Beauty, Endless Summer, Lady in Red, etc. They grow beautifully, lush foliage, etc. but with our "cold" Z6 winters we rarely see flowers. I'm just not willing to give up all that space in the gardens for a "green blob" and no flowers :( Sticking with the paniculatas and serratas for any future purchases. I've had 'Pinky Winky and 'Quickfire' in the gardens for a couple of years and still waiting for them to look as gorgeous as some I've seen at nurseries. I'm fairly patient and I think they'll eventually "earn" their spot in the gardens :) I've also had 'Pink Diamond' in the gardens for years, pretty but the poor thing is located at the top of the driveway and doesn't get much attention, i.e. additional watering during drought. After seeing this beautiful specimen along the path at Plant Delights this summer I think this "gem" deserves more attention :)

ge, if I actually get around to pruning any of our Butterfly bushes, I usually do what Hoosier does after they bloom the first time and then again in early spring before they leaf out. Just be careful pruning them back in the fall, you want to make sure they're basically dormant. DH got really tired of looking at huge, overgrown bushes a couple of years ago and whacked them back HARD to a couple of feet in September. They sent up a ton of new growth because we had an unusually warm fall, no frosts until late October. All that fresh foliage was hit hard when the frosts finally came and the plants never leafed out the following spring. Didn't hurt my feelings any, they were overgrown, unruly and I wanted them out of there! LOL

Thanks for the info Rcn
So you think waiting until after first frost then?
By mid October we are pretty frosted here.
When I saw the size of the variety I have I was shocked. If it died I wouldnt care, but I'll wait ,bulbs might not come until October.

Cindy: What a perfect opportunity you have to create your own hydrangea standard! I would cut back all of the lower growth as close as possible to the ground and support the single shoot if needed with a bamboo stake or whatever. Then, in the spring, "shape" the top by evenly pruning back any shoots which will also encourage a full look. If, for some reason, the standard shoot doesn't make it through the winter, you will get plenty of new growth from the roots. Good luck.

rcn: I've read that a little super phosphate works wonders for encouraging blooms on macro hydrangeas. (Did I read that on this thread?!)

My 'Picta' does throw off a few suckers but not many. Maybe because of the clay? I normally dig up the suckers and move them elsewhere or give them to my daugher.
rcn - Is the photo 'Pink Diamond'? It is pretty. The flowers on 'Limelight' are starting to get a pink tinge. I am really liking the freshness of this plant - the leaves look great and the flowers are lovely. Very nice at this time of year when everything else looks tired and dusty.
I've been wanting to prune some shrubs that I didn't get to earlier in the season and I have to keep reminding myself to wait until it gets cold. I have several different ones planted along the chain link fence to "disguise" the rv next door that need trimming but always other things to do.
Hoosier - I thought it unusual that only one stem grew totally upright out of nowhere. I almost trimmed it back in the spring thinking that it shouldn't be growing like that. Now I'm really glad that I didn't since that's where all of the flowers are. Sure glad I didn't since it seems like that's the way it should grow. I don't think any of the lower growth is going to "straighten" up to replace the main stem if it doesn't make it through the winter (or am I wrong?). That upright stem is pretty strong too. Thanks for the advice.
DH purchased a new camera yesterday. Had to rein him in on the "techy" features since I want to use it too (the simpler, the better). Now I'll have to practice with it.

You might have HG. I'm the prophetess of super phosphate for stingy blooming H. macrophyllas. It's especially effective on 'Endless Summer'. I use roughly 1C per three feet of width side dressed at bud break. It's part of my routine spring feeding program for all H. macrophyllas and H. serratas. I don't use it on the quercifolias, paniculatas or arborescens.

Some of the plantings of 'Endless Summer' that I've installed over the past few years have reliably bloomed very nicely, while others (including my own!) have not. With our alkaline soil, I've given up trying to keep the blooms blue, but now I'd settle for lots of pink blooms. Next spring, I'll try the super phosphate, for sure.

snapple45: Is there a certain type, strength, or brand of super phosphate you use?

ge, you should be safe after the first hard frost :)

Cindy, I don't think your clay has anything to do with it because the Kerria 'Plenifolia' is in the worst, never amended clay = hard as a rock. Guess maybe I encouraged it by working the soil next to it for the new Hosta planting and now it's "jumping ship" to take root in the good soil! This is what it looked like in the Fall of 2005.

A different view (Kerria on the left) and exactly one year later, it's once again threatening to swallow the trunk of the Birch :(

Hoosier and Snapple, thanks for the info on the super phosphate, I might have try it and see if it helps. I know most of the macrophyllas planted before the introduction of Endless Summer, etc. will probably be history here. We had a friend who's a Hydrangea grower/expert visiting from Massachusetts one year and he just frowned when he saw several of the varieties we had planted. Said there was no way we'd be successful with them because the buds would all get blasted with our winters. We don't have any snow cover here and he suggested erecting cages around them and filling them with leaves. Sorry, I love Hydrangeas but if I have to go through that every year I'd just as soon toss them on the compost heap and plant something that's maintenance free!

Cindy, oops almost forgot - yes the Hydrangea in the photo from Plant Delights IS Pink Diamond. I saw it from a distance and was so impressed I had to get close enough to find the tag - it was spectacular!

Endless Summer blooms prolifically here from new wood if treated with super phosphate in the spring. Dirr's Lady In Red blooms well too. I also got blooms this spring on H. serrata 'Perziosa' and 'Blue Deckle'. Macrophylla Forever & Ever 'Double P'ink' isn't as strong a performer on new wood as I'd like but it did bloom. I give absolutely NO winter protection of any kind to the hydrangeas mentioned here. None whatsoever. I prune out any dead in the spring and fertilize. That's it. Endless Summer is usually killed right back to the ground. For super phosphate I use the triple strength - 45 - either form Epsoma or High Yield. I use it in addition to a 10-10-10 4 month feed.

Dirr has another H. macrophylla introduced this year that he says is hardy to Zone 4! It's called 'Twist & Shout'. It has a lace cap bloom that looks like it's on steroids. I'm getting new flower bud formation right now on one I planted early August. It can be pink or blue.

rcn48 - You are correct. That is the pond that had the mutant Salix 'Hakuro Nishiki'. I sure don't miss that thing.

Rcn Thanks

'Twist & Shout' is a real keeper! I've had one planted since April and it's bloomed continuously all summer. Nice pink lace cap.

It's interesting how when 'Endless Summer' came out, it was promoted and advertised as blue, but "probably" pink in alkaline soils. In reality, unless you have very acid soil, you're going to end up with pink flowers the second year and beyond. I've tried amending the soil, planting new plants in pure peat, using sulfur, Hollytone, etc. with absolutely NO success in getting blue flowers after the first year. Now, 'Twist & Shout' is advertised as "blue or pink" flowers. Nice way to put it!

If anyone in a region with alkaline soil has had luck getting blue flowers on their hydrangeas, please tell us your secret!

Snapple: Did you mean that all of your macro hydrangeas get killed back to the ground most winters? You don't get any second year buds? So you don't get any blooms on 'Endless Summer' until later in the summer? Or, did you mean that in addition to the first flush of early blooms, you get a good bloom from the new wood because of the super phosphate?

Hmm - my 'ES' did have about 6 blooms on it this year. Most were blue but I do have one pink. Go figure. Anyone have any advice on 'Tardiva'? Hasn't been vigorous grower and never bloomed. Supposed to be a pretty tolerant plant but maybe I'm testing it's limits somehow.
rcn - Well I'd have to admit your Kerria is vigorous. And I bet it's covered in flowers in spring.

Cindy, it IS covered with flowers in spring and is actually sending out a few blooms now :) If it wasn't so darned pretty in the spring and the fact that it blooms in the shade I probably would have yanked it long ago - it's just too darned happy! Regarding your 'Tardiva', not sure what to tell you. Most I've seen that are thriving are planted in full sun. We planted one, or two? here but DH isn't as OCD as me and I can't find the tags he "supposedly" planted with them. He planted 'Chantilly Lace', 'Kyushu' and 'The Swan' in the same area and I'll probably never know which is which :(

Cindy: Unless your 'Tardiva' is in very dense, dry shade or planted in really bad soil, it should be doing well. I have to whack mine back each year to keep it in bounds.

HG, as for Endless Summer, it buds early on new wood. I have flowers from mid June onward. On June 26, 2009 I won best in show for an 'Endless Summer' at a local flower show. ( Just checked the back of my ribbon to confirm). It's always killed completely back to the ground every year. The others all bloom on old wood from buds lower down and they bloom roughly about the same time as the Endless Summer. My natural soil pH is 6.8. It doesn't take much to get it down to 6.5 for blue flowers. Although Dirr says sulphur won't work to make aluminum available for blue flowers, it's what I use and I do get blue flowers. If I don't apply ground sulphur annually the blooms are pure pink. If I use sulphur on half the shrub I get half and half. That always gets some comments. Really, all Endless Summer needs is a good push with fertilizer and a lot of triple superphosphate. I have no use for hydrangeas that need chicken wire cages stuffed with leaves. I do have a 'Lemon Wave' that I grow for foliage. It will never bloom here, but the foliage is really nice.

Could be the soil is too dry for 'Tardiva' since it's planted on a slope of sorts. I am envisioning a new home for it but that will involve hauling some landscaping blocks and pulling out some wintercreeper and lily of the valley. Maybe later this fall. It sure won't get any full sun here.

Cindy: Dry shade seems the culprit. I would bet that with a move, your 'Tardiva' would respond wonderfully. They are tough shrubs.

Snapple: Thanks for the info on your 'Endless Summer'. I'm going to try sulfur next spring, along with the 10-10-10 and super phosphate.

Hoosier - That's your 'Tardiva'? Oh, I have a long way to go. Thanks for the info and I'll be ever aspiring...

It's actually three plants, but they are cut back to about 2' every spring. They are certainly robust growers in full sun. They can handle half-sun though and still look good.

Hoosier, your 'Tardiva' are beautiful! That's just how I remember the first one I saw in a botanical garden in Alexandria and what inspired me to plant it. The poor thing was planted just before we experienced the two summers of drought but it appreciated the cool summer with more rain. I'll try giving it a 'haircut' next spring and maybe it will finally take off!

More minor relocating today. Took a few days off from the garden but still trying to tie up loose ends. Wandering around the yard, looking for a spot for 8 Helleborus seedlings I rescued back in the spring from under the mother plant. I started with about 20 but gave some away. Can't find enough empty space so that means more editing. They may just get sprinkled around the various beds. Might just bite the bullet today and pull out the giant sedum. It's gotta go. Of course I'll find 10 other things to take it's place in the half-sun bed. I want to save most of the space to pop a tomato plant in the ground in the spring (yeah, I can get tomatoes in half-sun). I've been growing tomatoes in big pots for the past couple of years. Hmm, think a yellow daylily (I think 'Happy Returns') would compliment a tomato plant?
Most of the Astilbe divisions are looking pretty good although some have lost their foliage (generally the smallest divisions). Have to get used to how "thin" the beds look at the moment though. Tempts me to plant other stuff in there but restraining myself fairly well.

it will fill in soone enough

Same here and it applies to all year round ,foliage or not.
The family and friends think I'm nuts because I try to mark everything from lilies to astilbes ,with white plastic spoons. This way even if I forget to label them I know there is something planted in a spot.

This is the fountain garden April, with white spoon markers

same spot in June, foliage covers most of the spoons

ge - Love the spoons. For the most part, anything I plant usually has foliage (either alive or dead) so I can tell where I've planted. Then I don't trim the foliage until after I'm done planting. And I really don't plant anything after the end of Sept., hoping there's enough time for roots to get established before winter.
I tried using those metal plant tags for years. I was faithful sticking them all in the ground. Can't tell you how many I used (the amount was ridiculous). Worked wonderfully until time to clean up fall leaves. The rake would catch on the markers or they'd be completely pulled out and end up in the mulch pile with the leaves. I even used to hand-pick all of the leaves to avoid pulling out markers (that didn't last long). And the writing would fade over time. I gave up on them several years ago out of frustration. Prime reason I can't tell my Heucheras apart. :)
Still motivated on editing. Pulled out Vinca minor groundcover yesterday (planted years ago as "filler") and the last of the ratty-looking Carex s. Now I really do have empty spots but it felt good to get rid of plants that I grew to dislike. I do have to move some Tricyrtis (carefully since it's ready to bloom) but some of the spots might remain open until DH decides about building the shed. Might need new homes for existing plants. Also pulled out a sedum - took 5 pots just to pot up for my daughter.

I used the metal ones too had the same experience.

Cindy - I just finished putting in a number of the copper flexible plant tags so I'd remember what I planted where.......and then it hit me that when we have someone do the leaves after we leave for Fla. in the late fall, they'll all be destroyed. I guess I'll just have to remove them all and put them back in when we return. I usually have to do a map anyway, so it was probably dumb to do all that work!

Your copper plant tags might fare better than the ones that I had. They were the kind with 2 "legs" that stuck in the ground and the tines of my spring rake would always catch on them. Since I'm not in the best of moods when cleaning up all of the (expletive) leaves, I would run out of patience with the tags. I give you credit for keeping a map up to date since I have enough problems with keeping my plant list up to date. :)

The maps and (of all things) grids are a thing of the past .
I spent the winter doing that in order not to over buy plants.6 months later I have lost controle of that part of my gardening life.
Its a good idea to have a map and plan when your dealing with a vast space where you want to anchor large shrubbs and bushes. I dont want to move anything like that, so I made maps.
It was when a DG'er sent 100 DL's that everything went "down the tubes" so to speak.

I used to start an area with rough sketches and try to site plants back in the early days. Lost a lot of plants due to lack of plant knowledge. After working with the survivors I know a little more about plants (and still maybe too hopeful on the siting part). Now it's just easier on the imagination to actually see what needs to be changed. Luckily I can still dig and move most things. Not to say that the body doesn't pay me back for "can-do" attitude sometimes.