Water Harvesting

Great idea! I'll post it there too. =0)

The portahoopies aren't a link, it's a hard copy. I've loaned out the mag, but when I get it back, I'll photocopy it and send it along.... payback! LOL

DUNE - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_%28novel%29

As for the collection of water,would the introduction of a local fresh water mussel help,hurt or do nothing for pre filtering of my water source?Be it barrel/spring/river? any help before I dive will keep me off the unseen rocks!

I'd look into possible parasite problems from the mussels... seems to me some can carry and transmit them, but I'm not sure.

It would probably depend on what you think you need to filter... and what a mussel will filter. I've never actually heard of such a system, but that and $5 will buy you a cup of coffee... LOL

The March/April issue of Backwoods Home Magazine has the first of a series of articles on Emergency and Backwoods Water Treatment that I think everyone would find useful and very informative.... Here's their site, though the article I've mentioned isn't available online...
http://www.backwoodshome.com/

I'll warn you, Backwoods is not a Politically Correct mag, but it's chock full of useful info.

You'd also want to make sure that the mussels in question are not the sort that like to take up residence in (and thereby clog) the water system pipes.

Oh lordie, that'd be a headache!
Not to mention, I just flat find the drinking of mussel waste rather distasteful...

Waste is relative. Some are easier to clean or filter than others.
Personally, I would prefer to use plants and sand/soil/rock to as biological/geological filters for water rather than an animal filter.

EastofMidnite - I found these articles on using fresh water mussels to keep a fish pond clear of algae. Is this what you are considering? Hopefully you are considering a local type of freshwater mussel.
http://www.fish.state.pa.us/images/pages/qa/misc/mussels_pond.htm

http://www.fws.gov/news/mussels.html

If it comes to pure survival, I don’t think politically correct will count for much. But anyway, if you have power a UV clarifier will kill, I’ve been told, 100% of the nasty bugs in the water. As GM pointed out, it can then be strained through sand to filter out all the other organic gunk.

Forgot to mention that we will begin the water-harvesting project that started this thread in a few weeks or so. I will start a new thread when we do so anyone who might be interested can follow along. Who knows, you may learn how not to do it. LOL

Lizard.... that's what I always figured. My dad is about the most PI person I know, but I've learned a lot from him... just not about people. He's a bit of a fool that way. But working horses, making do, building things... learned a lot from him for sure.

UV has its limitations... to quote the Backwoods article:

"This requires special high-energy UV lights ('black lights' and other common UV lamps will not do the job). The battery-powered products available for use in the field can treat only limited volumes. They must be used carefully, and turbidity can render them ineffective by scattering or absorbing the UV radiation."

That's going to require more than a sand filter to ensure adequate clarity, probably more like a microfilter after a sand filter. Most microfilters will remove the larger microbes (protozoa like giardia and cryptosporidium), but only a few reliably remove viruses and some bacteria.

There are also chemical coagulants that do a far superior job to sand filters, which will help extend the operating life of the microfilter before it either needs to be replaced or washed.

Again, it's good to know what is in your water, what might be in your water source, to design an appropriate treatment program. If you're using rain water, and you're down wind from a coal burning plant, viruses won't be your concern, but heavy metals might be. Is there crop dusting upwind? Stuff like that.

Most of the cistern purification systems I've see have the UV treatment as the last or next to last stage in a multi-filter process. The filter stages are configured to deal with the water conditions you need to work with.

Most UV devices are used to purify stream, lake, and pond water not a mud puddle, LOL, and sand is the most effective filter agent used in most municipal water plants today. Most of the big cities use UV and a mechanical filter in the finale stage of filtering while most rural plants don’t. That’s why we have a filter on our drinking and cooking water for chemicals and heavy metals just in case.

So I don’t get any flame D/E-mails let me state “P.P.F.N. does not sell, distribute, or indorse the product listed below. We have reprinted the following ad, in part, to illustrate a point and to irritate Jayryunen to distraction if the weather hasn’t already done so”. (grin)

This is an excerpt from an ad for a small hand held water-purifying device that I found and it seems to be backed up by other publications as far as actually working and being Green.

“At just 7" long and weighing only 8 ounces with four common AA-size batteries, the NAME packs a powerful yet safe Ultra-Violet light for purifying 16 ounces of water in less than 60 seconds. Literally destroying over 99.99% of all dangerous waterborne bacteria, microbes and viruses including E-Coli, Giardia, Crypto, Cholera, Hepatitis, Influenza, Salmonella, and dozens more! Don't be deceived by that "clear looking" spring or brook tempting to quinch your thirst without first treating it. DON'T TAKE A CHANCE! Always, always, treat ALL WATER when trekking or traveling! Compact enough to be carried in a purse or travel backpack.
When camping, backpacking, or traveling overseas, safe drinking water is critical to your health and safety. Water treatment without the hassle of pumping water filters or drinking chemicals such as iodine or chlorine is now possible with NAME.
Uses the same PROVEN Germicidal UV (Ultra-Violet) Light Technology that has been used for over 60 years by Hospitals, "Spring" water bottling plants, and municipal water treatment facilities.
Ultra-Violet light safely & effectively destroys:
· Bacteria, Protozoa, Viruses, Cryptosporidum, Giardia, E. coli, Hepatitis, Salmonella, Dysentery

For the record, I’m a staunch supporter of the Conservation of Nature and the Green Movement. As far as being politically correct goes, I try not to irritate folks any more than necessary.

Yep, they work... but settling and sand filters can still leave turbidity that will impair the ability of the UV light to work. Many municipal treatment centers also use chemical coagulation to settle well suspended turbidity. Which is exactly the point in the article.

And I'm inside right now, canning corned beef. Around here you can only get corned beef once a year, and not even in my town.... I have to go to Fanta Se where the white folks live. LOL So I'm distracted by beef cake in the kitchen... LOL

A settling tank will solve that problem, even the very small particulate matter in a home setting where you have time to wait. I can understand where a large operation that moves a tremendous amount of water would have a problem with the turbidity. In a survival situation a one-gallon milk jug with the bottom cut out and filled with sand will filter out the microbial pests and render the water fit to drink. Won’t do much for any chemicals or heavy metals that may be present, but you won’t have to worry about Montezuma’s Revenge.

The only thing we can get around here is the commercially canned stuff and it just isn’t the same. I haven’t canned much meat besides chili and beef stew so I need to bone up on it. Especially for the chicken and rabbit.

Oh wow, I am so not going into the woods with you... don't forget the TP, you're going to be needing it. LOL

3 1/2 # of corned beef yielded 4 pints of meat and 2 pints of broth. That's a bit of a disappointment; now I notice the recipe and it starts with 25# of brisket and ends up with 8 qts. Well, I feel better... %^)

Ooops, I forgot about bird poop on the roof... you can get protozoan diseases and others from rainwater... erk, now I need to rethink my emergency filtration system. So far we just use our rainwater for plants, but we'd always thought of it as backup, too.

Just to give you an idea what birds can 'gift' you with...
http://www.aviansystems.com/hazards.asp

I went through Jungle Survival 101 in Panama and had to use all of these little tricks to survive for a couple of weeks. And I can assure you they do work. Either that or I was so hungry that the little critters got digested before making it to the other end. LOL

UV will get the bird poop critters too.

Yes it will, but sand won't. And you've forced me to quote...
"Coarse Filtration: Water treatment plants often use a bed made of several layers of sand and gravel of varying coarsenesses to remove large suspended particles from the raw water. For small scale needs, you can find instructions for preparing a filtering bed in anything from a five-gallon pail to a 55-gallon drum.... a combination of settling followed by filtration can be of some help.... Settling and coarse filtration has its uses, but the effort may not be terribly effective against very fine and well-suspended turbidity."

And I'll point out the ad makes mention only of clear water... not turbid water.

My point is not that UV sterilization doesn't work, but that turbidity decreases its effectiveness because the suspended particles block or absorb the UV radiation. The water in my rain barrel is clear, the water in my creek is not, even with coarse filtration. So whereas a steri-pen would work just fine on my rain water, the murkiness of my creek water means I'd have to add another step, probably a gravity fed microfilter, to maximize the effectiveness of the UV. Because there are definitely beaver, ducks, and cows in that water.

Well, lizard, you have thrown the gardening glove and I have taken it up...

I searched UV sterilization and turbidity and came up with this site which does a nice job of describing municipal water treatment... quite an impressive series of steps. To say municipalities use sand filters doesn't even begin to convey just what those are... and first you'll note the flocculation step (excuse me dear, I must go flocculate now. LOL)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_purification

Oh, ack... ack... I'm dying. I drink de-mineralized water! I can just feel the potassium leaching from my bones.... saaaave me!

Not to worry, the NM winds balance any mineral deficiency the little water I drink may produce... thank heavens I don't drink much straight water.

Let's not forget the humble cactus for helping to clean up the heavy metals.

I think we have gotten off point a little .LOL My position is that on a small scale UV is not affected by a small amount of turbidity left after the water has been brought up to a drinkable, excluding microbes, state. Is this correct or did I misunderstand the question?

Yes, that slimy layer across the top layer of sand is yucky. Gives you a good idea of what comes out of the water before you drink it. Makes you think of those fresh water mussels, yuck.

Already had this typed before I noticed the latest post but I will go ahead and send it any way.

Of course the ad spoke only of clear water, you wouldn’t drink mud even if all the microbes were dead. UV would be near the end of the filtration process not the start.

Let’s work on your creek. If you are saying the UV is impaired because of the turbidity of the water right out of the creek, I will have to agree. But your micron filter would be just a useless. If your saying UV is impaired because of the turbidity of the water after it’s cleaned up, excluding microbes, enough to drink, I strongly disagree.

Maybe this will give us a common starting point to continue the discussion?

Why yes GM i was refering to fresh warer mussels and yes they do clog water intake pipes the invasive zebra mussel that is.Dumped from ships balast here in lake Erie. But they have cleaned up this they call water here Quite well.

But I wouldnt eat them Think of Homer Simpson and glow in the dark teeth

Sorry, lizard, a small amount of turbidity does affect the effectiveness of UV treatment. If the water is in the least bit cloudy, the bacteria and protozoa can 'hide' behind the particles, leaving the water less than safe. In any case, checking with the CDC...

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/travel/backcountry_water_treatment.html

I think that East's plan of a sand filter and boiling is the simplest, most practical, and reliable plan for creating safe drinking water. I think the mussles might be an unnecessary step, and a hassle to keep a healthy colony going... unless you want a pet, East. =0)

Ok, I will concede, but only because you’re nit-picking it to death and I’m tired of playing LOL {=0( (have got to figure these stupid faces out)

And now it’s nap time …. TTFN

If for no other reason we need youse guys around for the "humour" factor.

Oh, you are such a sore loser... call it nitpicking when the hard evidence and facts favor the the other person. Well, I don't care, I'm spiking the ball and doing a victory dance in the end zone anyway... and I'm still not going into the woods with you! LOL At least, not without my very own billy can.

This message was edited Mar 26, 2010 12:59 PM

I prefer to call it a tactical retreat thank you very much. {=0{ (still working on these faces)

Hey Dyson, if I can’t best him I can at least irritate the fire out of him. lol I know, I know I’m not much of a comedian either.

Well, by golly, in spite of all that bickering, I think I've got it. :)

Er – ahhhh- hum---- ah, it isn’t contagious is it? You know, just asking (grin)

Well, I hope at least contagious to my other brain cells. :)

LOL... nothin' like a good friendly dust-up. Scrabble, anyone?
=0)

(Hey, and the faces are lookin' good!)

Only problem is they all tend to look just like the ones you do. Can't imagine why LOL

Great minds travel on the same subway!

I’ll take that as a compliment since I don’t get many.

Hey Robin, how do you keep the deer at bay around your new garden plot or do you have that problem. They usually don’t come up close to the house and nursery here, but once I start moving the garden toward the woods it’s going to be a fight.

The deer never did bother the original garden, east of the house. The new garden is on the other side of the original and is closer to a small wooded area. The deer usually cut through the woods and field on the west side of our house. We are also talking about putting up a fence around the garden.

We used to watch the deer and turkey every morning and evening before the 5 acre piece of property directly behind us was sold. It's now set up as a hunting camp and they've done a good job of running off the deer. So there may not even be a problem with the deer in the garden.

Yea, the folks to the east of us don’t live on the place but hunt every year. Or rather they party once a year at hunting time and haven’t done much to shoo the deer away. LOL.

I was thinking of some of that orange safety fencing used on construction sites. That wouldn’t have to be strung tight and would be easy to take down and put up. A fence about 5 feet high with maybe a hot wire at 6 or 7 feet should do the trick. Maybe?

I know I will have trouble with them cause I used to grow melons and cantaloupes in the same area. They got more of them than we did.

Good idea on the orange fence. So deer like melons, too? Guess I'll have to think about planting them closer.

To get a shock from that hot wire, you'll need to run a ground wire along side it... if the deer isn't touching dirt when it hits a hot wire, there will be no shock. A send wire grounded to the earth will allow the deer (or what ever animal) to close the circuit and get zapped. If you need to go higher, alternate live and grounded for the best effect.

Didn’t think about the deer not being on the ground if it makes a run at the fence. Will have to add that little tidbit into the equation.

Texas deer love melons. We grew Jersey Gray watermelons and the deer would wait till they where ripe to attack. They bust them open with their hoofs and eat them clean, not a bit of red anywhere to be found. They like cantaloupes too but will hit the watermelons first for some reason.

While we’re on the subject of deer not being on the ground, just how high can a Texas deer jump? That would be a white tail or a mule deer I believe.