Coir Block use directions . . .

ok so i might not be the sharpest widget in the bunch but please bare with me.
I got some of those Coir blocks - to use as 'container soil'.

and now Im trying to figure how to get them from the block state to the soil form.

I thought i read to just place in growing container and add water.
Tried that with one of those grow bags and found the coir running out of the bag holes with the water.
. . .so that cant be right.

can someone offer some actual directions as to HOW to get this coir block to soil
- other than just "use coir" . . .

also do these need perlite, sea soil added to the coir soil for optimal container soil use??

somehow the pics on line were in a poly wrap with instructions i assume.
- I got the coir block - unwrapped with no directions.

i use a large plastic storage bin...put the block in and add water...if it is a good coir it should start coming apart right away...i've also had some coir that i had to beat with a hoe to break it up while in the water...there is a definite difference between good coir and bad coir...once you've used both the difference is great...good luck...virginia

You can also use a wheel borrow if you dont have any big plastic bins or tubs. For me, I just put the hose on the block, it will take in the water for a long time, once the vessel the coir is in starts to hold water, I let it fill up as much as possible, and walk away. You can sit there and poke and jab at the coir to get it apart, I have taken to the walk away method. When you come back, you should be able to break up and fluff it. I use my hands and or a shovel at that point. You will have to add more water than you ever thought, so dont worry about over filling anything when you first put the block in. It can take it. There is no set wetness it has to be to make it 'right'. Once you water the plant in, its going to be very wet anyway.

That is the truth about the good/bad coir. Boy was that a surprising lesson for me.

I use the wheel barrow method, too. It is the perfect size for hydrating a 5kg size block of the coir. As stated above, if the coir is of good quality, it should be ready to use really quick, after about a half hour of soaking, probably won't take that long. I never timed it, but it's fast.

ok great advice/info
. . .now to find something large enough.

could this be done in one of those large black garbage bags??

have no wheel barrel or storage bin . . .

Yes, a garbage bag would work. It just easier to move and work with in a sturdier container.

large garbage can?

Sure, if it's not too difficult to reach to the bottom....

I use a big Rubbermaid tuckertote, easier to scoop out of, a lid to put on to keep out maple 'helicopters' this time of year, I just throw a block in, run the hose over it, or leave it out in the heavy rain we've been getting, & scoop it out at leisure...the only thing I've mixed w/ coir in some containers is perlite.

wow thanks . . .

how about sea soil I've heard about . . .??
Is this sea soil essential to add to this coir and perlite for optimum results?

one other thing I just found out this week. I had bought some beatspeat, which another person here said they had a very hard time separating. It turns out that if you separate it "with the grain" (the way it's layered and pressed), it separates many times easier.

Let me know if this is off topic, but is it a problem if you forgot to rinse the coir a few times? I read something about salt build-up in the coir. I'm hoping the rain will clear some of that away before I plant in it.

That sounds like the coir that is meant to be used as a mulch covering. The planting coco coir has the similiar consistency of container mix.

Hmm, I think you are right. It did have some definitely stringy parts. I planned to put some dogwood, redbud, and Japanese Maple seedlings in it to grow out for a few months. I already mixed it with 20% perlite. I'll keep an eye on whether it's draining too much or not. Am I correct in guessing that the mulch coir will drain faster than the planting coir?

Breaker..........there are different grades of coir. That beatspeat stuff you are describing sounds like a very course and stringy coir from the outer husk of a coconut. It may or may not have been washed free of sea salt. It sounds to me like it is more suitable for modifying dirt in a garden bed rather than container gardening.

For container gardening you need the type of coir that comes from the softer inner part of the coconut husk. From experience of people on this forum, that type purchased from WWW.Instagarden.com or Hydrogardens is the type you need for all container type gardening. It is fine grained and fluffy and hydrates in 15 to 30 minutes when saturated with water, approximately 7 gallons per 11 lb block. I have all kinds of flowers and tomato's growing in it. So do most of the members on this forum. No body has to flush salt out of it.

If you stay with the softer fluffy type of coir from a reputable source you will be fine. I dont know what is with that course, stringy stuff that you have to chisel apart with the grain and from some reports, almost refuses to be hydrated. That stuff might be good as mulch but sounds like more trouble than it is worth.

50glee.........It doesn't sound like any of us on this forum are familiar with the Sea Soil you have asked about on different posts. If you could read the label and tell us what is in it, someone will probably have an opinion to share with you. As for my opinion, an inorganic coir/perlite grow mix doesn't need any additives as long as you are using a full spectrum soluable or granular fertilizer. If however, you insist on adding organic stuff to the grow mix, I dont know what you will end up with. I never had much luck trying to grow organically in containers myself. But that is just my experience. There are many container gardeners that know the tricks to growing organically in containers and some of them may be able to help you with the Sea Soil stuff if it is indeed an organic mix.

This message was edited May 13, 2009 11:26 AM

I had to go look it up, Jaywhacker (Sea Soil). It looks like a nice product but is basically composted fish and pine bark, not something I'd rely on solely for nutritional needs but rather a soil amendment (and many of those are a dime a dozen).
http://www.seasoil.com/SeaSoil-OMRIlistedOriginalSeaSoil.html

So, 50glee, "is it essential to add to coir...?". Nope, not essential, and you would still need to feed your plants something in addition to it. What were you going to use as plant food/fertilizer? Or were you hoping to just get by with the Sea Soil?

Shoe

Thanks, Shoe........I didn't even think about googling up sea soil. You are sure right about there being a bunch of soil additive products out there, each one guaranteed to produce wonderous results. And some of them probably do under the right circumstances. But I am leery of adding some organic additives to an open draining mix like coir/perlite for fear it will gum up the air passages in the mix.

I buy mine from Worms Way - they call it classic coir - which is the finer type. If it's soaked in warm water it will break apart more quickly.

http://www.wormsway.com/detail.asp?sku=SCCB310

www.instagarden.com is only $9.95 for the same thing! That's more money for the buck.

Well, since you mention "more money for the buck" (I think you meant more bang for the buck?) Hydrogardens.com has the same product for only $5.95 (cheaper yet if you buy ten or more, $5.40)

Jaywhacker, I'm like you and didn't want to add any organic additives to my coir but today I was at a nursery who got some coir from me. They did four different grow-outs, one was straight coir, one was coir/perlite, one was Fafard (commercial mix, with perlite already added) and the last was coir/Fafard (50/50). The 50/50 coir/Fafard mix won hands down over all the rest; the worst result was with straight coir. They used the same plant seedlings, planted the same day, and only one person did all the work (really keeping it to one person's way of transplanting I suppose). There sure was quite a difference, enough to give it a try myself, most likely with my bedding plants and such.

The only drawback I can think of might be the fact that the coir probably won't be re-used again like you do w/your stackers and such.

Shoe

Out of the four mixes you listed, I would have thought the coir/fafard would have been the wetest. If I had been given a choice, that would have been my last choice. But what do I know. :-) Do you know if that fafard mix was peat based or pine bark fines based?

Just curious, but why so much interest in coir? It has been tested and tested and shown to be inferior to peat which isn't all that good. http://www.usu.edu/cpl/PDF/CoconutCoirPaper.pdf

Hello, night owl. I woke up in the middle of the night with back spasms.......as usual.....and read your post. It is good to see you on this forum as I have always appreciated your straightforward and effective way of explaining complicated things about grow mixes and fertilizers.

I have had good results from coir in stacking containers. I read all the material by Ted Carpenter of the Verti-gro company concerning grow mixes and Verti-gro supplied the coir/perlite mix with a set of 20 of their stackable containers. Growing in the stackables with the coir mix and hydroponic type fertilizers from the same company has resulted in 5 years of good results for me in growing a variety of plants.

Let me attach the following article for you to read and then get back with you tomorrow. It seems that everybody and their brother has different scientific opinions about the same subject and it can be confusing to us lay gardeners. I read a lot of this stuff to try to gain a better knowledge but I guess I am more like the old herbal doctors who gained their knowledge by giving their patients a medicinal. If the patient lived its good medicine. If he dies....its bad. I am kind of that way with using coir grow mix. I haven't killed all my "patients" with it so far. On the other hand, I have had some troubles with peat based mixes.

Anyway, here is the article for you to consider.

http://www.instagarden.com/Page2.html

This message was edited May 15, 2009 3:42 AM

JayW...referring back to the four mixes I mentioned, the Fafard is a bark mix, no peat. (Think "fine pines".) I'm tempted to go get a load of fine pines and use that as an ingredient w/coir.

justaguy2, I'd read that report you linked to several years ago. Thanks for bringing it to my attention again. This time around what I got out of it was that coir can be made more "successful" when mixed w/other ingredients. I guess there isn't one single growing media/panacea so someone like me is always looking for a better one (or less expensive one with good end results).

Quinx, peat bogs are said to "be back in working order" five years after being harvested. I hope that is a good thing but I've recently read research from the standpoint of how harvesting the bogs has a negative affect on the ecology/wildlife, etc. Maybe we should do more research on the use of pine fines as our growing medium; at least trees are "farmed" these days for their products as opposed to scalping the land as in days gone by, eh?

Shoe

I look at discussions of renewal resources from 3 points of view.

There's the seller/marketer's view of the product. It's great. Everyone should use it or buy it. There's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't damage the environment, yada yada. Remember they stand to gain something from it's sale.

Then there's the environmentalist/protectionist's point of view. Using it is damaging to the environment, it takes forever to renew, it lasts forever and never breaks down, etc. etc. Some like to argue alot. Most have valid concerns about the environment. Me, eh. I'm in between.

Then there's the 3rd point of view... The real truth which is usually somewhere in between.

So, with that said, I'm no expert on peat bogs, and my guess is they grow back. How fast? I don't know. Perhaps not taking centuries as some would suggest. I also doubt they are restored in a couple to 5 years. After all, anyone will publish a report showing stats in their favor if it gains them something. And the fact that 99.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot, or is it 63%, (just like that one! hehe) leads me to believe the bogs grow back at a rate that is probably slower than they are harvested.

I don't own a peat bog, so I can't really say they do or do not grow back quickly or slowly, it's all 2nd hand information. I do know coconuts grow quite quickly as I've lived in tropical regions.

In the mean time I'll use dirt, peat moss, coir and other mediums for my growing to produce the best garden I can without man made chemicals (to the best of my ability) and try not to hurt myself, my family, friends or the environment as I go.

"If it works --- Don't Fix It!" That is my motto. This is the second season with coco coir for me(fine coir) and this season I went 100% pure coir with one cup of dolomte lime for its mineral content plus two cups of 10-10-10 my old faithful mix and am very pleased so far as I had a late start and was concerned if I would have produce but as I look out my window (rain) I can see new peppers and stringbeans. I only grow in the patented earthboxes, referred to as EBs, as I have always been very successful with them. I know there are a few different types of coir but I use the "fine" coir from BocaBob.

Shoe........now that is also something I am planning on trying.......the pine bark fines and coir mix.......if I can ever work it into my busy schedule. When you mentioned a fafard mix I immediately thought of a peat based mix and was wondering why in the world mix two things that hold that much water unless it is necessary for some specific type of plant. In my area, a company known as "Landscapers Pride" makes a finely ground pine bark mix, no chunks, wood slivers, etc that should do the trick. What ratio's are you thinking of using?

Boy, what a weird thought just came to me. I already have some "experience" with coconuts and pine bark. :-) In 1970, I was training some Laotian military in the Country of Laos. A couple of sargeants asked me to go with them to visit their home villiage for a weekend. I went and was treated like a king and had a great time watching the villiage's trained monkeys pick coconut's. One monkey and his trainer played a little game. The monkey would pick a coconut and start screaming and fussing and threatening to throw the coconut at his trainer on the ground. The trainer would cuss and fuss with the monkey until the monkey dropped the coconut safely to the ground then sat up there refusing to pick another coconut. After some more fussing and cussing by the trainer, the monkey would pick another coconut and the show would start all over again. The life expectancy of that monkey trainer probably wasn't too good. I figgered that monkey would conk him some day.

After I retired, I ended up as a maintenance foreman in a plywood plant, making pine plywood. The pine trees were cut to length, steamed, and then ran through a huge lathe where a long blade would peel the bark and outer skin off the logs. I was seeing the beginning steps of making pine bark fines.

Shucks..........with all that experience, I should do fine with a pine bark/coir grow mix. Off on another thrilling horticultural adventure!!!

This message was edited May 15, 2009 12:38 PM

Jaywhacker: That tree that the lightning hit and brought down in my front yard was a tall pine, should I use a wood chipper and and what possibly could I do with it? Add it to my mixes?
Joy

I dont really know, Joy. I have used composted bark mixes in some ground beds before. I didn't like the kind that had actual wood slivers. I screened that stuff out before I used it. Seems like a mixture of smaller bark pieces and dirt that is composted together for a year or so is pretty good stuff but I think you would have a hard time converting that whole tree to something useful and it could be a lot of trouble and expense if you are doing or hiring it done. Much cheaper to buy some type of compo;sted landscaper mix I would think if you are in need of something like that. However, if the city or county will come out and grind up the whole tree for you and you have a place to store a pile of wood chips, you could gradually make use of it over a period of years by composting it yourself.

Jay, your "experience" with coconuts is great! That must've really made your day watching that monkey. Great fun!

As for coir and pine fines ratio, the mix I saw using the Fafard was 50/50.

"Tapla", DGer who is well-versed in container mixes has recommended in the past a medium using 3 parts pine bark fines,1 part sphagnum peat (not reed or sedge peat),1-2 parts perlite, and garden lime. I would think substituting the coir for the peat in equal amounts might make a nice mix.

Now you have MY head thinking. I live just around the corner from a sawmill and see huge timber trucks pulling in and out of there quite often. I've bought rough cut lumber from the guy before but never thought about asking what he does with the bark he cuts off the tree trunks. I better go pay him a visit, eh?

Joy, ditto what Jaywhacker said. A chipper will grind grind up some of those branches but not much else. And yep, to use the chips in a mix you should allow it to cure for a bit. I've used fresh chips as a mulch though, just don't turn it into the ground.

Off to mkt, long day of "extroverting" to customers coming up!
Happy Day to all!

Shoe

justaguy2- I have to comment on your comment about coconut coir. My 1st question is: have you ever used coconut coir to grow vegetables? If you have, please let us know did you use it straight? mix it with anything, go through a complete growing season. What were your results. This article you are referring to is quite old, and they used only coir from Mexico which is said to be the WORST there is. Coir has come a long way in the last 5 years. The best comes from India and Sri Lanka, where they have inland plantations of coconut trees where salt is not a problem. The coir is NOW AGED and washed. You say coir has been tested and tested, yet you site only one OLD test. You say, what's the big deal about coir? LOTS !!!!!!!. Do some extensive research and use it and find out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've been using it for two years now. My results: Look at my hundreds of pictures I have posted. I don't say when a product is good, I show.

Joy, I'm confused as to why you have to deal with the your neighbor's tree that fell into your yard. That should be his responsibility or no?. Check with your Sheriff's dept.

**************************************************

Coconut Coir - I am using it straight for veggies and other plants. I am quite pleased. Everything grows so long as they get enough fert and minerals. Plants seem to do better with small dose of plant food administered often say like every other day rather than every week or so. Watering less but more often seems to work best. My maters like being foliar as well as being drench fed. They also like being foliar fed and drench fed 1 tablespoon per gal of water of Epsom salt every couple weeks or so.

Coir leaches calcium so next year I plan to mix gypsum into my coir before planting. I do have one question and that is in regards to whether or not the coir leaches as much calcium the 2nd it is used as it does in its first year of use? Time will tell.

All my coir has been the fine grind so to speak except that I did try one that contained a high % of long fiber. It was cheaper, very compressed and harder to dehydrate, but I've had no problems growing in it that I can detect . Actually over time it compressed down less than the fine grind.

I soaked most of my bales overnight in 7.5 gal of water and squeezed out the slop and then fluffed the coir up before using it. This method works best for me.

Jerry, who is a happy coir user.

This message was edited May 16, 2009 6:50 PM

Shoe.........You may be living next to a gold mine if that saw mill is a large enough operation to be peeling their logs rather than just cutting them into lumber and burning the bark slabs. Do they sell peeled telephone poles? If so, they run the straightest and best shaped trees, the whole tree trunk, through a "rotary" peeler that removes the bark and limb stubs. That is fairly clean stuff that comes from a pole mill. Most mills burn everything that cant be made into a salable product and create steam heat to be used in their drying kilns. But most older mills will have some smaller piles of such stuff happily composting away somewhere on their site.

We generated a tremendous amount of bark and sliver waste at the plywood plant I worked at and huge truckloads of it were hauled off to a paper mill each day about 40 miles away. We had our own steam plant that burned a lot of it. But lots of it would fall off the transfer belts that moved it around and pile up on the ground and was a problem. So the company contracted with an old guy and his two sons to clean it up and haul it off. They used a company front loader to load their old stake bed truck so the truck and their labor was all they had invested. So it is possible that you might get paid to haul off some really good stuff. Maybe some of it that has been piled around composting for years.

Texasrockgarden: I'm getting a composter soon and my dad used to have a wood chipper, that I was going to borrow from my brother. Thought it might make good compost?

My opinions on straight coir is that it needs desperately to mixed with something else. It has nothing in it, no nutritional value at all, it's a growing medium, just like potting mix or any other medium. Coconut coir works great in areas where there is a shortage of rain fall; but, if you have lots of rainfall, like I do, you might want to consider mixing in some perlite so that the excess water will drain out as the coconut coir absorbs and holds water. Coir does not cake up though the way that garden soil or potting soil does, which that caking up can lead to problems also. I did notice that my little crape myrtle tree that I planted in the ground using coir is doing really well, even after that huge pine tree came smashing down on the poor little thing. My Royal Empress tree came in and I imagine I will put coconut coir down around the roots when I have it put in a hole I'm having dug tomorrow for it.

I, myself have fallen in love with the Jungle Grow, there are some new specialized types of Jungle Grow out there in Lowe's, they have a new one out Jungle Grow for Professionals for hanging baskets which is no more expensive than the other Jungle Grows and I like it's fine texture for my EBs. I have some coir left which I am saving for seed starting next season; and it will be a reasonable season next season as I won't have to buy anymore potting mixes, coir or anything, so....... time to buy a composter and get a AWS system in for all my EBs, HEBS, hanging topsys and revolutionary planters. Soaker hoses for the flower beds. Will be bringing in crops here pretty soon, from the looks of my garden too, been shoveling the plants around as they grow bigger and they are all huge. I'm a happy camper thus far. I do hate toting those watering cans around though, and it takes 3 to water the lay flat bags and 5 gallon bags.
joy
joy

Jaywhacker, I have an idea the local sawmill cuts the bark off into slabs, not peels it off (dang it!). I've seen local folks leaving there with slabs to burn in their wood stoves. But maybe I can get some of the sawdust that has been sitting around forever, that'll surely be helpful too, if there are no bark fines.

Jerry, so it sounds to me like even the coarser coir can find a place in the garden. I'm glad to hear that, it just makes coir even more versatile, eh? (By the way, if you remove some of those asterisks in your post above it'll shorten the width of this thread back to normal; I'm having to scroll back and forth a bit much to read.)

Bob, I'd like to see some more reports and research on coir also. Thanks for bringing that up. The research justaguy linked to tested Sri Lanka coir also though, not just Mexican, look at "test 2" further down. And a five yr old test is not considered old these days but like you I'd like to see the most recent.

Shoe, off to water his tomatoes and cucumbers growing in coir bags.

Here is some more coir info:

http://vertigro.com/pdf/tech_papers/TechBull-No5.pdf

Tim Carpenter founded the Verti-gro stacked container business, one of and maybe the first to grow this way and a recognized expert in hydroponic fertilizers. He references some of the earlier problems with coir in this article.

Has anyone with the 5 gallon grow bags seen tomato roots growing out the bottom of the bag yet? I have roots about a foot long growing out of the bottom of a few of my bags already, don't know if that is good or not, as they are exposed to the elements and sunlight?
joy

That is not a problem, I have the same thing. Lots of other roots in the bag.

Bob: Good cause the plant in the bag is getting very huge and producing some nice round green balls which will be maters a bit later on. Had to quit posting pics, as it is raining like cats and dogs here right now, glad I fertilized yesterday, I can let nature do the watering today and just take a break. LOL Did you see the pics of the maters in the lay flat bag? Most are the cherry tomato kind; but some are really setting fruit which surprised me.
joy

yea, they look great !!