Feeding Monarch/Queen Caterpillars

I rescued 5 Queen's cats from the outside environment. I moved the entire mexican milkweed inside with these 5 hungry mouths to feed. This morning, the plant was eaten down to bare branches. So I went out side and took some cutting of presummably same type of milkweek that resprouted from the garden last year. This afternoon, most of my caterpillars appear larthargic, the youngest instar looks dehydrated and felt off the plant to the bottom of the pot. I use no chemical in the garden. What's going on?

At the mean time, I transplanted another mexican milkweed and moved all 5 into this plant rather than left them on the cutting -- in which they didn't seem to do very well just half a day.

I can't afford to risk these 'lil ones outdoor since I've many birds nesting in the area:

Lily, did you intend to load a different picture?

Did you just buy the plant this year? I know I don't trust nurseries that tell me they don't use pesticides, but have no holes in their plant leaves.

I hope they weren't attacked by parasitic wasps before you got to bring them inside. How are they doing now?

Indeed, your assessment is correct. Sheila, the quart size milkweed was a new purchase from spring plant sale event. So it actually was the initial milkweed that they fed on not the one that I took cutting from. Then I found little spiders in the vicinity too. None of them survived. I was so sick over this. Thanks for asking.

Sorry Lily that the experience wasn't a good one. I have had dissapointments too; but it makes you more determined to have sucess. I still remember some of my mistakes, and unexplained losses.
I blamed myself at the time, but in hind site they would not have made it in the wild either. Don't give up.
My changes along the way..........
**Bringing the cats in as early as possible - saves some parasite attacks
**Using small cages, wash and clean frass out daily - eliminates viral problems
**Make sure the cage covering material is smaller weave than tule - Some parasites are extremely tiny and can get through screens.
**Clip and wash foilage to be fed to cats - Helps remove parasite eggs, and pesticide residue that could be on leaves and in soil.
**Don't put cages in direct sun or room with cold a/c - they are sensitive to temp.
**Wash your hands before and in between cages - Avoids spreading viral infection.

Above is just a few of my changes that have improved my survival rate. I still lose a few but continue to learn. Some may disagree with my suggestions and reasons for them, but I figure any precaution may help.

Thanks for sharing your learning experiences Sheila. I don't use chemicals on my plants so haven't bothered to wash them but I didn't think about possibly bringing in parasites! I will wash them all from now on.

Oh...forgot ....one died from me closing the lid on it!! So after that I started putting a tag on the cage with the number of cats inside. None get dumped with the frass and I take note of where everyone is before the lid is closed now!! Good luck with the next group!

Thank you, Sheila for sharing all the precautionary measures to keep those little ones healthy. Your system of keeping them are awesome as well. How do you keep the cutting hostplant fresh feeding the cats? And how often you need to mist them at any? Venting method? Do you drill little holes into the lids. I appreciate you're sharing this info.

This is a pic of one of my cages. I clip the center out of Gladware containers then hot glue a close weave mesh fabric to the top (only at corners). I sit them on the edge to give more height to the container. The cup is the bottom of a pudding cup with wet floral foam covered with Glad Press N Seal. I poke a hole for each new plant clipping I add; keeping the foam moist. I rarely have to trash plant leaves only stems.

Sheila, I agree your method is awesome for raising cats.
This is depending on the cat and size but, typically how often are you replacing the cuttings in the containers? Where can I purchase the floral foam at? I have been to a multitude of places but have yet to find the foam which absorbs moisture. The foam I keep finding is the typical green, non absorbing hard as rock variety.
Thanks

Do you have a MJ Designs or Michaels there? Any large craft store like Hobby Lobby should have it also.
I will post one more pic as to how I cut it etc. I use the bottoms of pudding cups like cookie cutters on 1/2" slices of the foam. As long as you keep the foam wet it will keep fresh. As to how often you have to replace depends on the appetite of the cat. I usually don't replace but twice a day morn & evening. You get a feel for how much to put in there as they start to eat. The larger they get the more they eat, so start with one or two leaves if they are little.
One more thing, don't move the cat if they are still, like on a stem. They will not eat as they shed skin so add clippings the next day.

...

I say that with no written backing, just my experience. I did once and realized the cat had part of the skin on it, and it ended up dying. So just as a caution I only move the leaf or stem now.
Here is a shot of how it crawls out of the previous skin. It puts down a film and sits it's rear there..still for a day...then is able to crawl off leaving it behind. It will turn around and eat it usually, my thought is to hide it from predators.

Sheila,

We do have Michaels in my area. I will try and make it over there this coming week and look for wet floral foam. I am guessing its pretty cheap being that is just foam. I have raised cats in larger enclosures but never in the way you have done. I might give that a shot once I purchase the foam.

I will keep that in mind regarding their skin and how it can be attached. In the last picture it appears that the plant in the back ground is Parsley, correct?

Yes that is the curly leaf parsley, one host plant for the Black Swallowtail..
But you can see here the same method works with Monarchs. The silk is easy to detach from the plastic and pin on a emerging board. I use styrofoam covered with material inside a larger cage.

Hi there! I am new to this forum and ran across your posts about moanrch cats. I have had three or four cats die on my plants (tropical milkweed) in the past two weeks. At first we had tons of them, one finally spun its coccoon and the others have been dying. I find them hanging from the leaves, but they never form a coccoon, just seem limp and lifeless. If you touch it, it will reattach to the leaf, but a few minutes later it just hangs. After a few days, it is either gone or dead on the ground. My milkweed is fairly new, (about two months old) and I have one success, but none since. I have more milkweed seedlings I am getting ready to plant, but they aren't nearly large enough to support cats yet. How do I prevent all this loss? Thanks for any input, and your method for feeding is ingenious!

Burg111,

Did you start your plants from seed or did you purchase them as maturer plants? I ask this because I have seen the larger stores and some nurseries spray the plants with pesticides to keep the bugs from eating them. This in turn resides on the leaves and in the plant which kills the cats from the poison they ingest. This has been my experience in the past along with others. I purchase my plants from locations I know do not use chemicals or grow them from seed. Growing from seed is easy they are maintenance free hence the name "weed". You can receive free seeds from multiple locations on the net for free.

Thanks and I hope this helps a little

Burg111,

I afraid I went through the same experience. I purchased the plant which I feed those caterpillars that I had, and none of them survived. It made me sick to my stomach. Since then I've not any more success finding cats. out in the garden. A bad spring so far with butterfly for me. I only saw one here and there, no more eggs, or cats.

Currently, I've milkweeds that either grew from seeds or has returned from last year planting. I also have various passion flowers, fennels, parsleys for cats. But none are found so far. I miss my butterflies.

Being new to butterfly gardening (and quickly obsessed), I did purchase the milkweed from a Home Depot to start. All my other plants are from seed, but they are still very young and not even flowering yet. Like I said, one is doing just fine, and my son and I brought it inside once we found it had made a cocoon and are watching it. (Wow they are beautiful! I can't figure out how they form those gold spots, amazing!) I was looking around online and wonder if it isn't a wasp or other parasitic preadator. If I find any new babies, I will bring them in and feed them some seedlings for now I guess. (I planted wayyyyy too many for my garden to hold, Didn't know they would do so well in South Florida). I was also thinking about transferring them to the milkweed at work) I teach at a local college and the campus has planted small butterfly gardens all over. They are promoting native wildflowers. Thats what got me started on this whole new hobby. Thanks for the tip, I'll stick to seeds from now on. (Just dug out and prepared a new bed at my mothers this weekend, and she is already hooked as well).
By the way, will the pesticide (if they sprayed) eventually wear off? I would hate to have to pull the plants.

I am no expert and also obsessed in raising them. I personally do not keep the plants I know have been "infected" if you will, in the same location as my butterfly garden. I do not want to take the chance if they have an residual chemicals on the plant. You can purchase seeds (free also), plants and butterfly enclosures at the below site. The plants typically have a growth rate on them of almost two months and have two stalks on each.

http://www.livemonarch.com/store_plants.php

Do you have any Pipe Vine or can get it for the Gulf Fritillary? Have you also seen any Queen cats which look similar to the Monarchs?

I have had a few Gulfs on my passionvine (Maypop) and recently saw a cat. (Not sure if its a gulf cat, but there are a few eggs). That has been in the last week. I don't have a Pipe Vine yet, but an unknown tree next to my garden seems to attract a lot of gulfs, so I guess the garden is a new treat for them. I am quickly running out room, so I am going to let the plants I have get well established before adding more. I did recently purchase a coral honeysuckle (from a native nursery specializing in Florida butterfly gardening, so no insecticides) and a wild fennel with Black Swallowtail eggs. I am looking forward to those hatching. I planted it next to the parsley, so there should be plenty to eat. I'll check out that link, thanks.

Hi B1111....Just now setting down to read DG threads.
Lily and cutting are probably right about the pesticide on the HD plant. Their growers usually do use pesticides, most do. I wouldn't trust any of them that say they don't. As for how long it lasts, can't say. If it was me....I would search it with a magnifing glass for eggs and cats, then take soapy water and spray it well with that for starters. Also cut back the stems about 1/3 ....yeah...I know it will hurt you more than the plant. Then cover it with a net that will let light in but small enough not to allow bfs to lay eggs. After it starts putting out about an inch of new shoots you can take off the net and allow them to lay eggs again. By then the other leaves would be older and they will lay eggs on the new tender growth.

One suggestion with those eggs or cats you may get on the young plants. Instead of releasing them on the plant at school, why not keep them caged there, and use the school leaves as needed to feed them. As you know, a wasp or other parasitic predator could be waiting. Plus, they would be a great classroom experience.
Sheila


Monarch on Frostweed in late September here...

Finally two days without a downpour! We have finally a little dry weather and when I checked my milkweed today, I found five new cats! We rae very excited. I took your advice Sheila and cuttings and removed the cats, brought them indoors with a few cuttings from the milkweed at from my campus. They are very content munching away on the new plants (lots of new growth on them, so I think the cats are happy for now). I also found that out of the five plants I have, all the cats seem to be doing fine on four our of five. They get on the fifth plant and just go kaputz. I cut that plant down to a stump and a few new leaves to try and keep any new cats on it. I have lost four total, but hopefully the next set will survive. Thanks for all the help!!!!

You are welcome. Glad to know you cut the culprit down low. I am sure it will rebound and be a good plant later.

Thanks Sheila, I went to Micheal and got me some of those wet-sponge awaiting to take cuttings for caterpillars. I haven't seen any more out there, but hoping that will change soon. I've Milkweeks that begun to form seedpods, and Passi that are blooming, dills that make flowers. Common back butterflies!

Not a problem at all I hope it was helpful. Milkweed grows real fast especially once it has already been established. Don't forget you can pick up free seeds online to increase your supply.
I have 9 Monarchs on my Milkweed and close to 20 Gulfs on my Passi. You also have to make sure the lizards and wasps don't get to them. The lizards in my area are pretty bad about picking a Passi clean of cats.

Enjoy!!

I have millions of lizards around here! They make me crazy! I have to keep my vegetable seedlings under cover longer than usual or they eat them right up! Sometimes a little dishsoap and water mix sprayed on the plants keeps them away, but with rain storms every few hours, its hard to keep up with.
Last spring I had iguanas eat two gardenia bushes and an entire strawberry crop in one weekend! I planted a yellow oleander on the corner of the patio, and that seems to have kept them at bay. (I think it makes them sick if they eat it, so they stay away. I know it is toxic to most verterbrates). I also ended up with some oleander caterpillars (relatively rare down here), so that was a bonus. It smells nice in the evening as well.
Although I am battling with lizards for cucumber plants right now, my biggest problem is ants. They are on EVERYTHING! All this rain has brought them out in droves. Anyone have any tips? They are all over every plant in my garden.
My new native coral honeysuckle is blooming. What a beautiful flower!

Sheila,

I am absolutely in awe of you and your operation. I wish that I had read this thread last week before bringing some monarch catepillars inside. It looks like you have a good operation, and some really good guidelines. I particuarly like the fact that you clean out the frass. My five year old keeps saying to me, "Mom, they sure do poop a lot!" I've been afraid to clean anything in case I caused problems.

We currently have four monarchs in chrysalis. The last one formed today while I was at work.

How many catepillars do you raise every year?

Only been doing this a couple of years, learned everything from other DGers and reading online. Last year is the first time I kept record. I believe without going back I brought in 46 cats and 44 were sucessfully released in the fall. We don't get too many laying eggs in the spring. I think I may need to overwinter some milkweed inside to be ready earlier. Mine are only a couple inches tall when they first come up during the spring migration.
I have added a notebook to my supplies in order to record data in at the shop this year.

ok. For all you moarch pros out there, I have a strange question. ( I am a total rookie at this) Tonight while checking on my vegetable garden, I found a monarch caterpillar getting ready to form its cocoon on my snap peas. It is upside down, in a J and wriggling a little. My snap peas are ten feet away from the milkweed, across a concrete patio! For the life of me I can't figure out how he got there. I thought they liked to stay on their host plant for metamorphosis. Just seemed a little wierd to me.

While observing this oddity, I found several small green caterpillars with orange/brown heads on the pea plant. I have heard of cabbage butterflies using pea plants, has anyone else? Not sure what these little guys are. Since my snap peas are refusing to bloom, I figured I would let the little guys have them. Any help would be appreciated.
I am excited to have gulf frittilary cats on the passion flower and swallowtail cats on the fennel. Too bad I am work all day and don't get to see the parents.

Here is another question: If the chrysalis should fall, is there any reason to not leave it on the bottom of the cage? Would it be damaged because it is laying down?

Burg1111, I'm a newbie at raising cats. too. One thing, I've noticed when I first discovered the joy of raising them cats. they can wander a long distance to find a 'safe place' to pupate. Other questions, maybe Sheila and others who has more experience can help out.
Kim

Shelia what size of the Glad containers do you find works best? I am getting my supplies ready just in case!

burg... The Monarchs will definately do a lot of traveling and climbing to get where they want to be; as do a lot of caterpillars. Since you know where he is decided on, you can see it emerge in 10 days from the day you saw it! Their timing is pretty reliable as to when they emerge.
As to the green cat....not sure what it may be. Could be just an army worm, or moth. Here is a website that list butterfly host plants alphabetically under types and butterfly names too. Click the butterfly gardening link on the left at their home page. http://www.dallasbutterflies.com/

penne..... Most chrysalis that have formed and allowed to dry would be fine; but if it was wet, it may have had damage. Either way, I would take a piece of dental floss or twine and tie it to the black tip at the top of the chrysalis, then hot glue or pin it to something you can suspend in a cage. Not that they might not be ok coming out of the chrysalis in the bottom of a cage, but it is difficult for it to pump out it's wings and dry without being suspended. The picture is an old one where I was tying them to a dowel stick. Good luck with the one that fell.
nanny.... I use the Glad containers that are at least 6" square and about 4 " deep. Then I have some I purchased lately that are about 8" x 6" x 4"deep. I stand them on the end because I can clean out the cage and wipe out frass etc., and never disturb the cats. They usually climb up the sides of the container or on a stem to change instars.
Hope this all helps...anything you folks learn that others can benefit from please post it.

This message was edited Jun 10, 2009 10:21 PM

Sheila and Lily, Thanks a million for your input. I always thought the Monarchs would stay on their host plant to pupate. I am currently inundated with Monarch cats. So many I had to purchase some new plants so they all have enough food! All my milkweed was down to sticks. The plants are pretty crowded, so I am suspecting they moved to get away from the crowds. I found another one last night on the bottom of one of the glass patio tables. Sneaky little critters! This is so much fun! If anyone is in the Fort Lauderdale/Hollywood area, I found a great new nursery that carries tons of native plants and has some staff very knowledgable in butterfly gardening. They have been extremely helpful. (They have some really hard to find plants too). Prices are pretty average.

My swallowtail cats are growing by the minute, but my gulf frits seem to be taking their time. I'm also looking for a corky stem passi to get some zebras in the garden.

Thanks for all the help guys, I really enjoy being able to communicate with people as passionate and excited about this hobby as I am. My husband just rolls his eyes everytime I show him a new cat. (Although he has put in charge of landscaping the front lawn since he likes the back garden so much)
lol.
I attached a picture of my son at Butterfly World in Florida. This is what got us started.

Adorable picture of your son burg!! I volunteered at the butterfly exhibit here in Fort Worth and loved it. The Paper White in your picture was the friendless bf of them all. It was constantly lighting on people.
My DH called them "my worms" at first, but after a couple years he has mellowed out a bit and even alerts me when a bf is laying eggs. LOL!
You might watch the cats on the new plants. Hopefully they didn't use pesticides. If you think they may have, I would remove any cats and spray them with soapy water and clip down, and cover with a net to keep females from laying eggs until new growth is seen.

Burg1111, you're making wonderful memories, and sharing the joy with your young son. What blessing!!!

Sheila,

Thank you for your help. You really are a font of information.

Just passing on what I learned from others and my mistakes.