Raised bed gardening

Hi,

I am about to embark on a new venture in gardening for me. I am used to having a standard plowed, disced and tilled garden. However with my back being what it is at 66 years old, I have decided to opt for using Landscape timbers and making raised beds and then filling them with composted Cow Manure that I can find locally in pick up truck loads... I want to get some regular garden soil to mix in with the composted stuff..but not topsoil and that would garner me a kazillion weed seeds in the process. Miracle Grow garden soil was recommended as being good way to mix in garden soil.. So, my beds will be 16' x 4' and 3 timbers high... Would that mix be a good one for growing veggies in a "french intensive" method of gardening?? Or if not, what do you recommend.. I like the timber idea as then I can sit on the edge of the beds and work the garden that way.
So, what you do think?

I think topsoil is too vague a term to mean anything. Ask anyone who has used commercially bagged mixes/soils for any length of time and they will tell you there are weed seeds in it. I have opened bags to find little seedlings already sprouted.

When I started with raised beds I used what is called 'Mel's mix' from Square Foot gardening. It is 1 part peat, 1 part vermiculite and 1 part compost. It sprouted weeds ;)

Weeds are just a fact of life, but in a raised bed they don't have to be a major issue like growing in a large soil garden. It's a more limited, manageable area and the soil is so soft no heavy tools or equipment is needed, they can just be plucked out or turned over.

Making the sides of the bed a comfortable sitting area makes a lot of sense.

We made raised beds this year because both DH & I have back problems. We filled our beds with a mixture of compost from our compost pile, mushroom compost and a soil mixture from a local place.

Be sure to add some compost to your mixture and be sure the manure is aged or it'll burn your plants up.

My first raised beds were made of wood. This year my second raised bed is composed of cement blocks. I filled it with 1/4 aged sheep manure and 3/4 compost. I only went one block high. Bed is about 4 X 10'. I even filled the holes in the blocks with compost. Had lots of romaine transplants so am trying one in each cement block hole. Found it best to leave the soil an inch low in blocks to protect young plants from winds!! Early on half the bed was covered with a cold frame which now has beans__just for a meal, onions, spinach and lettuce plants. I just added annuals for seedlings to that half. The uncovered side is broccoli, radishes, parsley and onion plants. When the lettuce is done I will put a row of pole beans along one side. And will add marigolds, cilantro, parsley to hole that contained romaine lettuce.

Of course I had to surround the entire bed with poultry wire to keep out the varmints.

Thank you.... The cow poop I will be getting is composted already... and I went and got some MG garden soil...
The topsoil available by the dump truck load out here is soil scraped off of pasture land... and the last load I got a few years back had dandelions by the score.. I don't really mind because I used the soil to make a grassy area.. not for gardening, so I pick the dandelions in spring and eat them.. lol
I am into vermculture as well and will be putting lots of worm castings in the bed as well....
Do you think it will be too rich for tomatoes or peppers? I don't want just pretty plants. lol..

Thanks,
PVP

The Miracle Grow will cancel out the worm castings.

Interesting.... Why goes Miracle Grow cancel out the worm castings?

Miracle grow has chemicals in it and worm castings are organic. Most likely the chemicals will leech out anything in the castings that's good for your soil.

MG is just nutrients, it doesn't have the ability to remove anything from the vermicompost or the soil.

I would use cement block or something similar in width. I have a raised bed made with timbers and it is very uncomfortable to sit on because it is so narrow.

Thanks for the input.. I think I will try an experiment with the MG and compost, worm castings etc... and see how each bed reacts..
One bed with just MG, One with worm castings and plain garden soil, and one with cow poo and garden soil and one with MG and worm castings... that should be interesting..

I don't like the look of cement blocks, plus the roughness bothers me as well... I guess I am just a tendah flowah..lol I got one of those Garden Rockers from Home Depot ordered, so I will most likely be sittin on that while I garden..

The MG will have salts in it and these salts will will kill off the microbes in the worm castings.

I try to stay away from all store bought ferts, and go with with more natural types.

I am making mine out of 2x6's (not pressure treated). I plan to make a ledge out of 2X6's placed horizontally and mitered at the corners. I plan to make it about 16 inches high to make it comfortable for sitting while weeding.


I have back issues and other neurological problems, but I will not let it keep me out of the garden!

I too, was wondering what the best mixes were to fill them...thanks for posting this thread.
RatherB

Please take a minute to read Tapla's stickies in the Containers forum. A raised bed is just a big container (simplifying a bit, of course). You want to focus on his mixes as well as the topic of compaction. Pine bark fines is an important component of my raised beds. I vary the contents in the beds depending on what they are used for. for example, my carrots and parsnips grow in a raised bed with a very fine structure based on sand whereas my yacon grows in a bed with a larger structure based on pine bark fines.

one of this year's raised vegetable beds....the soil is 1/3 last year's garden soil mixed with 1/3 peat & a 1/3 compost.....we also mix in alot of gypsum, some bone meal, some calcium....last but not least, tomorrow will top dress with some really rotted cow manure that's been in the barn for at least 5yrs...we use alot of llama manure in our compost....the two preceding years the beds were side by side rectangular cinderblock beds but this year we combined the two to give us a wider surface area + open up more space for wine barrels & large pots....Deb

"The MG will have salts in it and these salts will will kill off the microbes in the worm castings."


Interesting. I remember something about soil and water from quant. analysis. What are the names of these salts?

My raised bed is 2 cinder blocks high, filled with anything that comes out of my yard, chopped leaves & grass, rabbit manure, newspapers, all layered to start and it breaks down slowly. Every fall I start piling again, by spring it is ready to plant again.

The salts in MG are the fillers that are used in the mixture, the fertilizer in MG is only a portion of what is in the bag. if a bag says 19-19-19 that means only 57% of the bag is fertilizer. The only 43% are the soluble salts that are used as fillers.

It is these salts that dry out and dehydrate the microbes in the soil.

Almost all fertilizer components contain salt, whether synthetic or natural fertilizer. To be water soluble and available to the plant they must be in salt form. Plants expend energy to absorb the nutrients (in salt form) and have a greater concentration of salt than the surrounding soil. When the soil has a greater concentration of salt than the roots, then water flows outside the plant cell (water flows across the plant membrant to the side with the highest concentration of salts) causing plant burn. That is why too much salt is bad.
Now to the part about soil microbes and why natural fertilizers are better. Natural fertilizers contain CARBON-HYDROGEN linkage which FEEDS the microbes and feeds the soil. Synthetic fertilizers often do not contain this carbon-hydrogen linkage and do not feed the soil. The difference is the carbon, not the salts.
Synthetic fertilizers are usually highly water soluble, have higher salt content and greater potential to burn the plants, not kill the microbes. Natural fertilizers contain carbon, an energy source for soil microbes, improve the soil, feed the plant, release slowly and usually do not burn the plant.

Great explanation, Calla! Also, synthetic fertilizers are often a quick release type fertilizer, while natural fertilizers are slow-release.

No salts and nutrients are 2 different things. Just as the salts will pull moisture out of your plants so it will pull moisture out of the microbes in the soil. Most good soil tests will check for Soluble Salts in the soil. The microbes break down the organic matter into a soluble form the plants can use. After the microbes are gone there is nothing left to break down the OM and you have to use commercial fertilizers.

In the winter I switch to Hydroponics, and the white film left on everything are the left over salts after the plants have used the nutrients and water. That is why you check the EC level and change the solution out as needed, to remove the salt build up.

The filler in fertilizer is called Ballast. It is inert, usually CLAY.
If the EC of your soil is 0, your plants cannot take up nutrients. Nutrients must be in soluble form for the plants to utilize them and to be soluble in water, they must be a salt. The problem with chemical fertilizers is because they are so soluble, they evaporate and/or run off into streams and lakes. Manures can also cause run off.

Now to the statement you made about salt killing microbes. That's not true either. Texas A & M has done extensive research on microbial activity in heavily fertilized soils and guess what??? There are millions of microbes in all soil, even soils with heavy chemical fertilizer applications! Microbes need carbon and the best place for them to find carbon is around the plant's roots so a well fed plant also feeds the microbes. Microbes die because they grow fast. Microbes feed on the dead microbes. They recycle everything.

Too much fertilizer, whether organic or synthetic is bad for the environment, but not because it might harm the microbes. It is bad because it runs off into streams, invades ground water and eventually ends up in the oceans and lakes where it does major damage to the ecosystems there.

I garden organically, my gardens are healthy, my soil is loaded with microbial activity. I don't use manure (which can have a very high salt index and also causes run off and can damage the environment), but let the microbes break down organic plant matter. I also add sea water to my garden. The plants love it if used correctly. You see, sea water contains many of the trace elements that plants use (in salt form).
Here is an article you might want to read by a real scientist called "The truth about microbes." http://www.plantanswers.com/microbes.htm

I'm glad some people chipped in with actual facts. I have found that many people repeat things they have heard but don't understand. There are certain "catch phrases" or words that when I see them I just assume the people saying them are repeating something without understanding. "salts" is one of them. It has gotten to the point where "organic" is another.

Do you have some more references for this?

I would try to locate a company in your area that sells soil mixes and compare their products and ask them what's in it before buying.

Also, unless you are going to go 3 landscape timbers high, I think your beds are going to be a bit short unless the underlying soil is very good.

There are several things wrong with this article.

1. First it deals with Turf-grass, You posted this article in a Vegetable Growing forum. I don’t grow Turf-grass in my veggie garden, and I doubt if any else does either.

2. The author makes several references to sand based sports field, (NOTE: These ‘studies’ were based on samples from a soccer field.). What does this have to do with growing veggies?

3. Third the author mentions proper management of the soil, but never explains what that is.

4. The only soil nutrient that is even discussed with any detail is Nitrogen, there are many more.

5. The reference is made to studies by Texas A&M yet not one of those studies is referenced.


This article sounds nice but it would be nice to have some real data to back up the ‘facts’.

Quoted from Article:

“The soccer field was first sampled just two weeks after washed bermudagrass sod had been laid on an 11-inch base of pure sand with no organic amendments (peat).”

The real problem is in the method used to obtain the samples. I live in East Central OK, we have a large number of Sod farms in the area. These are always located in the river bottom ground areas; this is some of the richest, darkest soil in the area. And these Sod Farms are watered from the Arkansas River. This soil is always going to be very high in nutrients and microbes due to flooding from the river, and the river water used to water the soil.

I noticed NO mention of any control group for this ‘Study’. Any ‘Real Scientist’ knows that without a Control Group the data collected is worthless.

This entire Study was flawed from the very beginning. With no Control group upon to base the test results on, you can just create your own results.

Until you post an article from a Real Scientist using sound and proven sample and testing methods, I will throw your entire article in the trash can, maybe that’s why this article is posted on a site that also sells Turfgrass.

http://www.milbergernursery.com/turf_grass.htm

PineViewPlanter's thread is being lost here. She just asked about what soil to use in a raised bed. Seems to me she's been left behind.....Deb

Thanks Deb. I have 2 redo 3 small raised beds cause the stray cats turned em into litter boxes. I used them last fall for my very first cole crop which was very successful.

I grew root veggies in all three: beets, carrots and turnips. Boxes started with layer of newspaper, and confetti shredder paper. Then sifted a small pile of my homemade compost through 1/4" wire screen. Compost was made same way with layered newspapers, shredder paper, leaves, grass, veggie peels, coffee grinds. I supplemented the fill with a couple bags of MG potting MIX and a couple bags of Black Kow Composted Manure. Beautiful, loose medium. Beautiful produce.

I can't begin 2 decipher ya'lls science lessons above, and I don't have a clue about the scientific makeup of what I used -- it just worked for me. So if ya'll would like to deconstrict my mix for me, ok. 'Cause I'm headed out right now 2 do it all over again...

P.S. The only real problem I had was pillbugs teeming in my medium. I suppose because of its organic nature? I Welcome suggestions for averting them this go round. Suggestions have ranged from sprinkling ashes to sprinkling coffee grinds to sprinkling Sevin dust. Please comment.

Thanks.

Linda

This message was edited May 25, 2009 8:52 PM

I prefer to use peat and black kow myself. I have had bad luck with MG. They include fertilizers and other stuff in there. I'm not big on any store ferts. And yes they do leave some salts behind, I really noticed this with my hydroponic setup. The residue was hard to clean off.

This message was edited May 27, 2009 7:41 PM

WOW! This was a great thread. We just had 200 landscape timbers delivered yesterday, we are making 5-6 raised beds that will be 40 ft long by 4 ft wide by 3 timbers high. Our reason is we are planting veggies in 1/3 of an acre which has 500 blueberry bushes in the other 2/3 of an acre. The ph is too low and so we are making beds to create a better ph for veggies. Also making it a no plow/disc/till veggie gardens. We are using straight finished compost with leaf mulch on top and will add aged manure or more leaf mulch later on in the year. During the fall and winter we will add grass clippings, more compost and so on to build for next year.

We have a 1/2 acre veggie garden on the other side of our property that we have built up over 5 year and does not have a ph problem. On our berry orchard side, raised beds are a quicker fix. We discovered this after planting 200 cabbage and 200 brocc plants in the Spring and they all turned purple and stopped growing, deff ph issue.

I will post pics next week when we finish the project.

Thanks for the great conversation.
Susan

Wow.. what a great thread. Be careful what fertilizer you get, such as sheep, cow, etc.. I once had a neighbor use sheep manure & it was infested with bugs that just ruined OUR garden & lawn.
I use brick for my garden as eventually wood will either warp, rot or decay. Stone doesn't do that as quickly. sorry

We got 19 beds built in two days, 17 of them are filled and planted. We bought a mix of compost, sandy loam, leaf mulch and aged manure. This was from a garden center and is just beautiful. We are getting straight leaf mulch delivered and will top off the boxes with a little sprinkle of lime then mulch to keep everything moist and cooler. The compost mix is real dark so we anticipate it can get hot being in an open acre.

Will post pics tonight.

Fun, fun stuff!

Here are a few of the 20 raised beds we built this weekend. We got 15 of them planted, saving a couple for mid-Summer and early Fall crops. Lots of work but long term investment that is going to make a lot less work.

A few more beds

We put in 17 raised beds this year. Our mix was 50/50 top soil (river basin) and mushroom compost. I added horse manure compost to the top of that. It wasn't too expensive. Overall cost of a 12x12 bed with all materials from lumber to manure cost about $80 per bed. When I consider that I will use these beds for SEVERAL years I don't think $80 per is too bad. And stuff is growing REALLY well! The picture is one of the onion beds in May that was planted March 1.

I grow everything in what was originally flower beds. Most are only about 6" deep and are filled with various brands of top soil and topped off with composted horse manure and sawdust from our barn. Everything has done well in it. I do have 2 raised beds. The oldest is made from landscape timbers. It was lined with landscape cloth and the first year I put hay bales in it and planted in them. It worked great. At the end of the season I broke the bales open and let them lay over the winter. The next spring I put more bales on top of them and grew in the bales again. Very successful. I broke up the second years bales and covered it all with a layer of composted horse manure and sawdust from my barn. End of winter I topped the bed off with some more composted manure and sawdust from the barn. When it was time to plant, I planted my bush beans and squash in it. They are growing like crazy. The other raised bed has no sides yet. It was a space about 24' x 8 feet that we filled in on the creek bank. We covered the top of it with several loads of composted horse manure and sawdust from the barn. Smoothed it all out and planted my tomatoes in it. They are doing pretty well. I want to work some soil into the bed. Haven't decided what I will use for sides yet.

Here is a pic of my beans from a week ago. They are really blooming well now.

Here is the bed before the beans were planted. The sides are 3 timbers high. I added that little bed off the back this year with some faux stone edging I had. I lined it with the landscape cloth and filled it with the composted horse manure and sawdust. I planted heirloom huckleberry plants in it. I had them covered to protect them for the frost. They are doing well except for the "dadburned" black sugar ants that are eating holes in the leaves.

Note: The fencing is to discourage the ducks from the creek in my backyard from digging for bugs in my garden. It works well. Also discourages any stray dogs from sauntering through the middle of things.

This message was edited Jun 4, 2009 1:38 AM