apple cider vinegar

I think I read somewhere that you can use this to lower ph. I'm trying to grow roses, blueberries. Is that true?

Wouldn't have to be apple cider vinegar, all vinegar is acidic. Be careful though, vinegar can also be used as an herbicide so be careful when using it. I'm not sure how much you'd have to use to get the pH you want, but it could be enough that it would damage the plant in the process. There are other things like sulfur and peat which would probably be a better bet if you do need to acidify. Roses you may not need to change the pH though--I think they'll do fine in soil that's a bit on the alkaline side (plenty of people around me have absolutely gorgeous roses, and our soil is alkaline)

Any coffee ,or tea grounds will work and old coffee or tea that has nothing in it.

Hmmm. Yes I forgot about using coffee and tea. Does it matter if it's caffeine free?

I just remembered there is a recipe for fertilizer for brugs that I've been using on almost everything and it has vinegar in it. It's very dilute. It also has epsom salts, and ammonia. Those won't bother a blueberry bush will they? My roses sure like it.

I don't think so it's just the acid in them not the caffeine.

All right! Good news. I've got the perfect fertilizer then. Thanks ya'll.

Okay, so what's the recipe?

Mother Earth News is also suggesting that people try a mixture of used coffee grounds and crushed eggshells around cruciferous plants to see whether they repel cabbage pests, as seemed to have happened for someone who tried it.

Oh my gosh, I just realized there is no vinegar.:( I was thinking of the ammonia I guess. Maybe I can add vinegar. Well anyway this is the recipe I use:

2 cups water
12 oz can beer (or 1 Tbl yeast to 11/2 cup water)
1/2 cup house hold ammonia
1 cup Epsom salt
3 Tbl teaspoon (I don't use this because somebody said it's not good for cats which I have)
1/4 cup unsulphured molasses
1/2 cup liquid seaweed
1/2 cup garlic spray (to deter bugs)
1/2 cup humate tea

I use 2 T to one gallon water and drench or put in hose end sprayer on 1Tbl per gallon. Use this only one established plants, not cuttings or seeds. Do it only at night or very early morning. And sages, salvias and for some reason my redbud trees don't appreciate it. They got rust spots on the leaves when I accidently used it on them. Also the ferns seemed to burn. I don't know what it is they don't like. I wish I knew. The roses, lilies, bougie, brugs, daffs, etc. all seemed to do very well. My bougie never bloomed before I used this stuff.

There are lots of other versions on the thread. I think next time I'll add Superthrive.

The coffee grounds and old coffee and tea is a good idea. I've been using that around roses and hostas. I guess I need to drink more coffee.:)

Thanks, silverfluter! I'll have to try it.

Leslie

You are welcome ghgal.:)

I wonder if the humate tea would help lower the ph?

I think I would give Epsom salt a second thought.
It's a very fast release nitrogen, that causes unnatural spurt in foliage growth.
Also if you have clay soil it can cause a salt build up that is unhealthy for your soil and plants. In addition, Epsom salt does not support the bacterial growth that is essential for the formation of humus and healthy soil.
Fish emulsion would be a good substitute, as would Blood meal or Alfalfa meal.
(Alfalfa meal will not go though a hose end sprayer)

Dove

Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate, it doesn't have any nitrogen in it.

Also it's a much more soluble salt than the ones that can build up in soil, so I wouldn't worry about it from that standpoint either.

you are absolutely right about the magnesium ... what can I say, I had a brain fart.
regardless, I stand by the rest of my rant *S*

Try Sul Po Mag for a better source of magnesium
http://www.planetnatural.com/site/sul-po-mag-amendment.html

I am lousy at remembering the chemistry behind fertilizers, but my roses did so much better last year after using this recipe. There are new canes popping up from the base on most of them. And I am using alfalfa tea also this year. I did a soil drench about a month ago. And last week I gave them a Gardenville product called Rocket Fuel. It has alfalfa in it along with a hole slew of other goodies.

Is it possibly the ammonia that bothers the ferns? I can't see how anything else would be a problem.

Last night I brewed up some stale coffee I have had for a long time and poured it on the blueberry. I heated some water on the stove and put the grounds in a cooked it on low heat for about 20 minutes. Hoping that cooked more of the goodies out of the coffee and made it available to the bush.

It'd be my bet that the alfalfa tea was the force behind the new canes and basal breaks on your roses that stuff is miraculous.
Alfalfa tea a balanced source of nitrogen, calcium, iron, magnesium, phosphorus, zinc, important trace minerals and triaconatol. Triaconatol is the kicker, it is a natural growth stimulant.

If I used only alfalfa tea, would I need anything else?

Once a month during the flowering season you should put down a balanced fertilizer, something like Espoma's Rose Tone.
One of the great things about Espoma "Tone" products is that they contain a blend of beneficial microbes that naturally destroy many garden pest and improve the soil.

The natural bacterium are toxic to the larva of many plant destroying pest like caterpillars, cabbage looper, omnivorous and fruit tree leaf roller. Some of the microbe ingredients are useful to increase resistance to fungal diseases and root rot and still others in Espoma work symbiotically with the root system to free up soil nutrients for plant use and are antagonistic organisms against plant pathogens.
http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/pdf/products/tones/Esp_Rose.pdf

Oh, I almost bought some of that a month ago. I was looking for something to help me in rooting rose cuttings. I did buy some Espoma Biotone, but cuttings still don't look good. I'm trying air rooting now. Would the Rose Tone be good for everything else too? I also grow hostas, lilies, natives, herbs, and veges. I'm trying not to buy so many different things. It costs so much.

I looked at the packages and the ingredients are the same, it's possible that are different amounts for different types of plants, but I use just one for everything. I usually use either the Rose-tone or the Plant-tone.
You could take a look at Garden-tone too, it depends on what you gorw the most of, I grow about 60 roses, I have a season herb & vegetable garden. All my other shrubs are incidental in comparison.

Dove

Thanks Dovey. I almost bought some Rose Tone today at the Antique Rose Emp in San Antonio. I bought a Cornelia. Hmmm. Prices have gone up a bit since the last time I bought a rose. But it's a beauty! Got about 20 open blooms on it and lots of buds.

Epsom salts is indeed magnsesium. It can bind up the available nitrogen if your soil already has sufficient magnesium. It 's handy solution to knocking down the nitrogen if you've used too much. You may want to consider having a soil test done initially so that you know what your soil needs (and doesn't need).

You're right about soil tests. But my soil varies so much, even before I started adding stuff. This used to be DH's grandparents house and they were fantastic gardeners. Most of the back yard was their garden and they grew everything from tomatoes to melons to plums and veges everything in between. When I started digging in the yard and making beds I would run into areas that had a lot of clay and right next to it would be an area of really sandy stuff and then an area of sandy loam. There are strips of different things all over the yard.

Silverfluter
Oh Cornelia is such a pretty rose!
I Love musk roses and especially an any of them that were hybridized by the Reverend Pemberton. He has a great collection credited to his name. I have Robin Hood and Penelope, Maid Marian is on my want list.
Most of Pemberton's hybrid mush roses are in the not not prune to prune lightly category, they are very easy care, disease resistant and cold hardy.

And I'm pea green with envy that you live close enough to actually go to Antique Rose Emporium in person!

garden_mermaid,
Without sounding too pushy (ha-ha) I try to discourage anyone from using Epsom salts, it's not the wonder supplement most believe it to be and there are so many better things out there that will not only feed the plant but improve the soil as well.
The problem is - it is recommended just about everywhere you turn.

I appreciate the additional information, I will add that to my arsenal. :-)
Dove

Oh, I can't wait to get it in the ground and see it start putting out those long canes cascading out over our small pond.

But, getting back to epsom salts. If I didn't use that anymore how would I get new basal canes. I never had those til I used epsom salts and it's so nice to see that bright green fresh new cane coming up. They hold so much energy and promise.

Alfalfa tea will give you the basal breaks you're looking for - it's truly amazing.
I get my alfalfa in 50 pound bags from the local feed store, it comes in a powdered form or in pellets.
In Calif all I could find was pellets and in Ohio all I can find is meal. After using both I think I prefer the pellets, but either one works like a wonder on everything in the garden... (tomatoes love it!)

Dovey. I made alfalfa tea a few years ago but have forgotten the proportions and length of time to use time. Can you refresh my memory. Thanks
Donna

Donna,
The best thing about alfalfa tea is that it's not an exact science.
I wrote a humorous article for GreenPrints magazine once on just how unscientific the whole process really is.
I can share with you in part what I wrote for them:

1] Find something that holds water
a. If it's big, fill it with a lot of water
b. If it's small, don't use so much water

2] Select a standardized measuring* unit
a. My personal favorite is my granddaughter's* Hello Kitty sand bucket.
b. If you don't have a Hello Kitty bucket, an emergency backup is an empty one-gallon black nursery pot, filled about 2/3s full of pellets. If you keep your pellets in another area of the garden, remember there are drainage holes in nursery pots and it may be necessary to factor in the loss of pellets during transport.

3] Fill your Hello Kitty sand bucket (or appropriate substitution) with alfalfa pellets and dump it all into the container filled with water.
a. If you're thinking, "What container filled with water?" Reread step 1.

4] Ponder your water and alfalfa pellet mixture while trying to connect with your inner gardener**.
a. Once the inner gardener connection is made, double check with him or her to see if you should add another handful of pellets to the mix.
b. Obey the inner gardener.

5] While the tea brews, stir the mixture daily with a broken garden stake*** that is approximately 2.5 feet long.
a. Broken garden stakes can usually be found in a corner next to the empty one-gallon nursery pots.
b. Time permitting, stir the mixture several times a day.

Depending on the local climate and your gardening mojo you should have a wonderfully bubbly Alfalfa Tea in 2 days to 1 week.

*Helpful hints regarding standardized measuring unit:
1. Two to three hours before the visiting grandchild leaves hide the Hello Kitty sand bucket and serve Popsicles.
2. A sand bucket belonging to your grandson, niece or nephew may be substituted.
3. The empty nursery pot does not have to be black, any colour will do.

**Inner Gardener facts:
1. Your inner gardener must always be obeyed.
2. If you contact your inner gardener and then choose not to follow his or her advice, it only ticks them off.
3. Inner Gardeners can become sulky and unresponsive if you ignore their advice too often.
4. Take care not to mistake last week’s episode of Ground Force for you inner gardener’s voice.

***Helpful hints regarding broken garden stakes:
1. To avoid splinters always stir with the broken end down in the mixture.
2. If you are taller than 5'8" or have a bad back, a longer stake may be used to reduce the amount of bending.

When it comes to how much to apply I always use the “You can never be too rich, nor your diamonds too large” approach. Alfalfa Tea will not burn your plants like chemical fertilizers and since roses are heavy feeders it’s a good idea to pour between a quart and a gallon of tea around the base of your roses regularly beginning in spring. Stop serving tea about 6 weeks before the first frost in your zone. To replenish the shrub I give it good dousing of tea after each flush of blooms. If one of my roses is just sitting there like it doesn’t know what it’s supposed to do, I give it a little extra attention and serve it a spot of tea once a week until I see new growth.


A five gallon bucket of water and a 1/2 of a 1 gallon nursery pot of alfalfa pellets will do the trick.
I have 2 1/2 whiskey barrels in my garden that I mix tea in all summer long, I dump 2 Hello Kitty buckets in the barrel and fill it with water.

Thanks Dovey, funny/good article. I think I have all the necessary parts, even the broken stake.

Donna

See, you are totally equipped! Your roses will be blooming in no time.

Dovey, that was a great article.lol I like recipes without exact measurements.

Questions:

1. The balanced fertilizer you mentioned, I'm assuming that gets applied a month or so after the alfalfa tea?
2. Does the tea do its job better if it's applied as a soil drench or as a foliar spray?
3. If I use the Espoma stuff does that give me mycorriza (sp?) fungus also? I didn't see that listed on the site.

It may be over kill to do them at the same time, but it doesn't really matter, neither one will burn your plants and the organic fertilizer is a nice slow release.

As for the tea, I just drench the soil, it usually has chunks, or a leaf falls into the barrel (unless I strain it) that keeps it from going though a sprayer with any efficiency.

I don't see mycorrhizaes listed, you would have purchase Espoma's Bio-tone® Starter Plus it contains Biostimulants,
Beneficial Bacteria, and Mycorrhizae

Dovey, do you aerate your tea. If you don't, why.

Dovey...Love your article. Thanks for sharing. :)

I agree, Dovey. I saved it to my gardening folder on my hard drive! Wonderful! Now if I can only find a Hello Kitty bucket I'll be all set.....

Leslie

Sliver,
I don't aerate, I do stir often and try to swish it up good. The reason I don't aerate is because I don't have an aerator, one of these days I may manage to get one rigged up. The thing is the tea will brew and get bubbly on it's own, it just takes longer. So I've managed to work the length of time it takes to brew without aerating into my feeding schedule and it all seems to work out just fine.
One of the things I use to hate was having an ugly Rubbermaid tote in the garden all the time (that's what I used to brew my tea in) I finally picked up the whiskey 1/2 barrels and worked them into the landscape. I have one at each end of the garden so I don't have to lug buckets of tea too far.

Thank you Ice Worm and Leslie,
I wish I could share the whole article, but there are rules against that.
If you've never read Green Prints you should check them out, they are a heart warming, chicken soup for the soul kind of gardening publication.
My article is in the Spring 2009 issue
"I Am the Alfalfa Tea Goddess"
And my roses love me for it
http://www.greenprints.com/Contents77.html

I read an issue of that magazine once. It was very interesting and uplifting. But a bit much for my budget.

The reason I asked about aerating is because somebody here locally told me that you get different bacteria and stuff if you aerate the tea.

I like the whiskey barrel idea. We have a lot of wineries around here. Maybe I can snatch a couple of those. Do you cover it or put fish in it to eat mosquitoes larvae?

If you leave your tea to brew long enough (hot sun helps) it will bubble on it's own, like a sour dough starter that pulls wild yeast from the air.
At that point it will contain the beneficial microbes and bacterium they were telling you about.
Left long enough after the bubbling, they begin to die off and you are back where you started with just the seeped alfalfa tea.

I put mosquito dunk in my barrels when necessary (which is often)