Debate: When is a double a double?

I have been wrestling with this question for years and it has been really nagging me lately because of this new seedling that I have. With this seedling (Rosamond x Dbl Peach) all of most of my blossoms have some corolla material stuffed up inside the corolla (the corolla is 13' long so that way up there for most). I have yet to see a bloom without some piece of something (although it may be raggedy) lurking up inside the bloom. Then the other day a fully formed double bloomed out.
My question is when do you call a plant a Double"? I have grown plants like Double Delight that after 3 years of growing and lots and lots of blooms, not only did I never see a double, I never saw any material up inside it either. The seedling I have is showing genetic double traits on every bloom, but many of the blossoms appear single to the naked eye.
Where is the fine classification line to describe a cultivar as a double. I would appreciate as much feedback on this as possible since I can find no other threads that address this topic.

Here you have some pretty blooms that appear singles (if you look in the upper top on the left you can see a full double on the same plant)

Inside the "single" looking blooms you have this.....so Double or single cultivar?

Many of the blossoms have much more material than this and much looser. Material actually hangs down in some cases while in others there is a mini tight rosette inside.
Visually the blooms is a very pretty looking bloom...but is it really a single because that is what the naked eye sees from eye level?

im no expert and this is just an opinion but id say it would be better to call it a single if thats what you see. if you can see both with out examination then id call it a double.

You have a good point but here is a blossom of Peanut. Peanut is considered a double. I have had singles bloom on peanut (not many) and this bloom here that we see face on when it hung down in a natural position it looked like a single but upon further examination it's a double. What is occurring in my seedling is the same thing to a lesser degree. At what point do we say "that is a double" or should we have a category like pseudo double or double-like tendencies or trends towards double?

This message was edited Mar 29, 2009 11:31 AM

there should be an in between name to call them . like rosette lol .

I'd say genetically they're a double, and maybe they'll present better in the future. Or not. LOL If it hasn't decided what it wants to be when it grows up by the time it's two I'd wonder about keeping it. There are so many beautiful doubles now that present correctly all the time. I've had Peanut show a stuffed double, occasional single, and separated double. All in the same season. She's at my best friend's house now, because she has a well and will be able to water everyone even with the upcoming water rationing. I need to make decisions soon on which ones I can keep.

In their book, Brugmansia and Datura Angel's Trumpet and Thorn Apples, Preissel and Preissel describe the B. X candida Double flowers:

Elsewhere, I read it described by someone else as "hose in hose" Beyond that, I couldn't find a description of what constitutes a double. I wonder if Alistair has a description? Has anyone seen a single corolla tube with 2 skirts attached and would that qualify as a double?

Gary, have you split some of the flowers to see if there is a second corolla inside the first?

Mary, I'm sorry to hear water is so scarse you have to go on mandatory rationing. Is well water regulated in California? I don't recall ever having to go on water rationing when I lived there.

This message was edited Mar 29, 2009 5:44 PM

yes there is...tiny though it may be

Interesting Gary! I don't think there is really a satisfactory answer as there is evidently a continuum from single to slightly double to stuffed double to dropped skirted double (and triple, though I think the term "double" generally serves well enough for any with more than one corolla??), and many cvs vary where they are on the continuum from one flower to the next.

I am beginning to wonder if that variability isn't in part temperature dependent - a plant of 'Knightii' here produced shredded (and deformed) double flowers from buds initiated in the cold of winter, stuffed doubles in spring, dropped skirt doubles in summer and back to stuffed in autumn.

At least one a bit like yours has been registered: the Australian B. 'Tantra' ('Knightii' x un-named aurea). It has mostly single flowers but quite a lot with a bit of inner corolla, but never a proper double flower. It is a very nice cultivar as a whole plant (but the flowers are not always very pretty when you look right into them). I think it was described as "single, sometimes semi-double". [This is a pic of 'Tantra', but it doesn't show inside the flower].

Maybe yours could be described as "semi-double, occasionally double"???






This message was edited Mar 30, 2009 2:05 PM