I feel like that Olympic skater (Nancy Kerrigan) after she was attacked with a baseball bat and was crying "why", "why"?
Yesterday I saw quite a few of the koi sunning themselves and was quite happy to see so many of them (it was in the high 40's). At night we had a huge storm with lots of lightening and tons, and tons of rain. This morning the pond was frozen again and I turned the deicer on (there still was a small hole where the deicer was sitting) and I just now went outside to see one of my koi dead on the bottom in the shallow area. Do you think it died from stress with all the changes in the temperatures and probably Ph? Why would it be away from the rest of the fish on the bottom? Do they leave the school to die alone? I am surprised and hurt that this happened but was not really attached to this fish as it was one of my last acquired. So it's not too emotional here (as it was over the summer). I just want to understand why.
Linda
1 fish just died-why?
Okay-graphic photo of fish sitting on the bottom of the pond.
A pond picture overview. And then a close up of the fish. The koi has some ulcers and fungus on it. It had just died because it wasn't even stiff yet. Sorry again about the graphic pictures and words.
more
In the above picture the fish is on the bottom and slightly to the left of center.
The next picture is the close-up. Just yesterday I bought the biofilter/UV and pump and tubing and clamps and all. I hope the fish respond well (this summer) with the improvements.
I'm so sorry:( You have already been through so much with your fish.
We've had such swinging temps too, one day it is in the 60s and the next few days it is a high of 20, and I've been worried how the fish will handle it. I've read that temp swings give bad bacteria an advantage over the already weakened fish. You could try some surface aeration just in case oxygen levels are low as long as you don't stir up the bottom gunk. I'm sure someone will be along with more knowledge then myself. I know that when I have lost fish the usually go off by themselves in the aquarium or pond.
I hope this is your ONLY fish loss this year.
Sorry didn't see the pics. That is bacterial infection and it looks like he had it for awhile. I've treated popeye, which it looks like he had and saved 3 out of 5 of the fish but I've never treated fish in the winter. I hope someone can help you out.
I found an article with some good info about bacterial infections and it makes mention of winter water quality and warm days.
Bacteria
Bacteria come in many different shapes and sizes. They are microscopic in size and unlike parasites, cannot be seen with a normal microscope that is used for the identification of parasites. Stains or sometimes culturing are applied to identify the species. They are single-cell organisms with an outer cell wall which allows liquid and nutrients to pass through. Most bacteria multiply through binary fusion. It has been confirmed that under favourable conditions, some bacteria can generate well over 20 million organisms in a single day. Bacteria are naturally occurring in all lakes and ponds. The scientific community has mixed views as to the capacity of bacteria to cause disease. Some regard it as an opportunistic pathogen causing only secondary disease in koi that are already in a susceptible condition. Others claim that it is capable of causing primary infection in its own right. Koi ponds for a variety of reasons are susceptible to outbreaks of bacterial disease. The key to treatment of bacterial disease is an understanding of the pathogen, early diagnosis and treatment. For the pond owner, there are four types of infection caused by bacteria.
Fin-rot where erosion of fins take place.
Body ulcers- open, shallow to deep lesions on the head and body.
Bacterial gill disease where the gills are the primary target.
Systemic infections (Septicaemia) where the bacteria multiply in the blood and affects internal organs.
Many pathogens such as parasites, fungi, viruses and bacteria can cause skin disease in fish but bacteria are of particular interest because infections are common and often deadly if untreated. Some of the most obvious signs of bacterial skin disease include exophthalmia (pop-eye), abdominal swelling, reddened lesions, ulcers on the body, reddening of the base of the fins and darkening of skin colour. The distribution of the skin lesions may include the head, face, operculum, mouth, back, trunk or body wall including the lateral line, and tail base. Other symptoms may include loss of appetite, weight loss and decreased activity. The following factors may contribute to bacterial disease:
Recent importation or new fish released into the pond without quarantine.
Insufficient dissolved oxygen in the water.
Netting, transporting and handling.
Unacceptable levels of ammonia and nitrite.
Stress of a new environment.
Prolonged levels of poor water quality.
Overcrowding
pH fluctuations
Poor pond hygiene
Build up of waste in the filter system.
Parasite infestation
Temperature fluctuations.
Exposure to harmful pond material, toxins and heavy metals.
Warmer water after adverse winter conditions.
Overdosing with chemicals.
Inappropriate diet.
Injury caused by sharp objects in the pond or injury caused by predators.
There are numerous species of bacteria which may infect fish. Most of the bacteria that are commonly isolated from fish are Gram-negative bacilli. Below are the major bacterial pathogens that have been associated with koi disease.
Gram-negative bacilli
Aeromonas salmonicida is a non-motile (cannot move on its own), rod-shaped bacterium that produce skin nodules and ulcers in fish. The ulcers are generally surrounded by reddened tissue from which scales can be easily removed. Muscle infection and necrosis are common, allowing infection to penetrate up to the underlying bone. The infected tissue exhibit necrosis but few inflammatory cells will be noticeable. This condition is created by enzymes which are the waste products of the Aeromonas bacterium. Once the infection has become systemic, usually only antibiotic treatment is effective, or the fish will not survive.
Aeromonas hydrophila is a motile (mobile) Gram negative bacillus. It is free living and always present in the water. It has a tail-like protuberance which gives it mobility. As an opportunist, infection with this organism is thought to be at least partly associated with overcrowding and high levels of stress in the koi population. The symptoms are similar to those associated with Aeromonas salmonicida.
Fish do not develop antibodies against Aeromonas species and it has been reported that resistance may develop to certain treatment. The battle is therefore a long term one.
Flavobacterium columnare (previously known as Flexibacter columnaris) is a long slender bacillus. Symptoms associated with Flavobacterium columnare include bacterial gill disease and “saddle back” disease. The bacteria will excrete cartilage and protein degrading enzymes that will cause erosion of the gills as well as skin lesions. Infection of the gills may cause acute mortalities while skin infection may have a more prolonged effect. Skin lesions during the early stages range from shallow white erosions to eventual yellow/brown ulcers. Because this bacterium is a natural resident of ponds where healthy fish are found, it is thought that the disease is triggered by high stress conditions. A related bacterium, Flavobacterium psychrophillum causes fin rot that progress to involve the tail base (peduncle)
Gram-positive bacilli.
Of the gram-positive bacilli that the pond keeper may encounter, the most important is Mycobacterium fortuitum. It is Gram-positive and non-motile organism. Mycobacteriosis is usually characterised by protracted development of the disease and slow wasting or emaciation of the fish. Granules are also formed in the tissue and organs of the fish which may be detectable on the skin. No effective treatment for this disease is known and it may be transmitted to humans. It is recommended that the fish be handled with gloves. The photo below demonstrates a classic example of Mycobacteriosis.
Treatment of bacterial infections.
For any bacterial infections, treatment takes the form of anti-bacterial drugs that are normally obtainable from a Veterinarian. In most cases where the infection is confined to the epidermis of the fish, topical “off-the-shelf” treatment will be effective. It is always recommended to take a swab of the infected area and have it cultured to determine the exact treatment for the particular bacteria. My experience is that by the time the results are known, the condition of the fish has deteriorated to the extent that treatment will not be effective.
Potassium permanganate treatment of the infected fish or pond water may reduce the bacterial load and offer the fish some relief. The cause of the infection should however be addressed.
I didn't think his eyes were popped out-my medical books show something more protruding-do you really think it has popped out eyes?
There's not much I can do on a below freezing day. I would normally change the water out and add fresh but I can't with this weather. I hope the rest of the fish are doing okay and can hold on until I can do something for them.
At the rear end of the fish body was what I thought to be the the white fluffy cotton disease (the name escapes me).
They look a little bulging. Some of my fish with popeye were more pronounced and farther along then others and most of the pictures I've seen of popeye they show the severe cases that will either die or lose an eye. If his eyes were bulging, it was probably the last of his symptoms from the look of him.
From what I've seen with my fish, they started popping out when they had an internal infection. My guess would be he had the external lesions and ulcers(caused by fungus or bacteria), eventually it progressed to internal infection, last would of been the eyes. The fungus could also go along with it because bacterial infection can be secondary to the initial fungal infection.
I'm no expert by any means but I have dealt with the popeye, some white fungus, and internal infections with my goldies before but never dealt with anything external of this nature, so I'm just remembering what I've read.
Again I'm so sorry. It must be frustrating not being able to do anything till the weather warms up:(
Linda
I am so sorry for everything you are/have been going through. When we first started with ponding, I felt the same way and we went through our share of diseases. We even had a bout of ich last summer - from one day to the next it was there and we didn't add any fish last year.
Here is a link that I liked that listed some of the illnesses and how they looked and how to treat the illness.
http://www.usakoi.com/subcat303.html
Thanks guys! It's so darn frustrating when this happens in any weather but worse when it is cold and I can't treat them. I guess I should get some antibotic to soak them in for when it warms up.
Thanks Carolyn for the link-I'll read it!
Linda
I was thinking about it. I seem to recall when we had that same problem that we treated the pond with Proform C. It is a broad spectrum treatment. We went through all the water exhanges that you are supposed to have with it and the fish were also given the triple antibiotic food. Just don't use the Proform C with salt int he water.
The fungus is Saprolegnia. It can be a primary invader or a secondary invader on already present breaks in the mucosal covering. Saprolegnia is common in cold water ponds. With an ulcer that deep the fish probably went septic with a blood infection, called appropriately - septiceimia. Although Saprolegnia is most often found as a secondary invader, I spent three years battling it as a primary problem and only on one fish. Get your pumps circulating as soon as weather permits. Some of the most effective treaments for ulcers etc are also oxgyen robbers and aeration is important during treatment. When the weather forecast predicts night time temperatures to generally stay at or above 40° start water circulation and filtration. My recommendation would be to treat the entire pond. Microbelift is excellent for handling fungus. If after the fungus is cleared you want to treat for a bacterial infection try to do a partial water change and wait at least 48 hrs. before adding another chemical to the pond. This isn't absolutely necessary. I like to play it safe with chemicals. If you choose an antibiotic treatment, other than PP, no wait is necessary. I wouldn't use PP and Microbelift fungus unless several weeks apart.
http://www.pondbiz.com/home/pb1/page_1700_42/microbe_lift_anti_fungal_treatment__defend.html
Thanks for the advice Snapple. I think I should be paying you as my personal fish consultant. I went to pond biz and bought the fungus product (microbelift) in the largest size. I was thinking maybe this has been my problem all last summer but didn't know it. What do you suggest for the bacteria treatment? Do I need to individually treat the fish with antibotic dips or something for the whole pond?
This Thursday we are forecasted to get temperatures in the low 60's and in the night around 35. The entire weekend is supposed to be more mild than it has been lately. Should I wait until the weather is more predictable or start treating the fish? I could go into the pond (with my thermal hip waders that I bought on sale last October) and get them out . . . I'm sure my husband would sneak a few pictures of that to embarrass me. . . Wait, no he will be in Texas on business (probably eating sushi . . .). Ok, enough of my thinking online.
Are the pumps running and water circulating? If they are then I would treat the whole pond now. The Microbelift will knock off the fungus eliminate some parasites and external bacteria infections. You should see results pretty quick.
I would add some KoiZyme and extra oxygen too.
MM2 - I'm trying a new less expensive probiotic this year. Have you heard of it? It comes in a dry form with a good storage life.
http://www.koimarket.com/Aqua-MedZyme-Liquid-16oz.---32-oz.-150
Snapple....I have heard of several newer ones out there, but have not yet tried any other than the KoiZyme. I saw some at Lowes that came in tablet form, but wasn't sure about them, as the enzymes often have expiration dates. Maybe they are like the one you mentioned, in dry form, and therefore last longer? I'm willing to go as budget friendly as possible, as long as it has positive results.
I can't help but {{{hugs girl}}}. I'm sorry. :(
It's tough to guage success with a product where you can't prove a negative. If I use it and I don't have any bacterial problems I can't say that it's because of the product. It might have been other factors, like a quick warm up of the water temperature to ramp up the koi's immune system, or water changes done just at the right time or just luck. Anyway - I have it and I plan on using it soon. Probably next week according to the weather forecast. I'll certainly let you all know if I have any problems.
Okay, I would have to clean the pond up a lot to get the pumps back up and running-right or wrong? The top of my water fall is a mess BUT I do have this new biological filter and pump coming in the mail by this Wednesday. I could set this up and run it until I can clean the falls and stream. I also can run the air. Is the product self explanatory? Do I need to do water changes before or after using it? Should I use the air at the surface or at the bottom but not where the fish are hibernating?
By all means run the new pump and filter. As for aeration get some surface agitation going. Depending on how you discharge the water back into the pond from the new filter you might be able to get aeration enough from that. Surface agitation is where gasses are exchanged. A water change after treatment would be a very good idea. The filter and pump will have run and you'll have suspended soilds in the water that are a breeding ground for all kinds of nastys. After the Microbelift has done it's job, of course. Sometimes a second treatment is necessary. I think it's done in 48 hrs if I remember right. I don't have any Microbelift on hand to re-read the bottle but the instructions as I recall were clear and simple.
I had half my new filtration stuff delivered this morning via UPS. The micro . . .. was just delivered USPS. I checked on the pond just now. The top water temp is 40 degrees F. I was a little surprised-I though it would have been colder. It was nearly covered in ice this morning except the heater area. Mid day it was ice free and I could see some of the fish at the bottom. A lot of algae in the pond. . . Yuck for spring clean up!
I've got a lot of algae too. The pond is a murky green with the koi moving ghost like in and out of view. I still can't see all 11. The two darker ones are just invisible. It's 26°. Tonight it will be 9°. No outside work going on here. I was supposed to work pruning viburnums today at Toledo Botanical Gardens and some other early season pruning chores. At 8:00 am it was 5°. I called the head horticulturalst and said "I don't do frost bite". He laughed and replied that they had cancelled the outdooor work until Thursday. I was next on his list to call. Good thing cause for sure they would have been one old lady short of a full crew.
I hope you like your new pressure filter as much as I like mine.
I bought the same filter as yours My Fish Guru! I know I will!!!
Okay my new filter with UV and the pump have been running over 24 hours now. This morning when I woke up the pond was very clear. The algae mess was there and all over the pump ut the water was clear. I treated with the microbelift today. I added it in about 1:00pm. The fish never came off the bottom of the pond and never needed any extra air. The floating thermometer showed a surface temp of 55 degrees today. I saw tiny bits of organe peeking out from behind the rocks in my pond.
Now do I need to do anything else for the bacteria in the water? If I can catch the fish do I need to do a "dip" of anything like for antibotics or fungus or anything? I plan to do a water change of 25% tomorrow and retreat as the product indicates.
Also, Snapple, on the fishmate biofilter-did you add any additional filtration to it? I was surprised that there wasn't anything else to it like carbon.
I added nothing additional. Do you see anything on the fish? Let the Microbelift work. It shoud take care of any fungus. It will kill external bateria too and some selected parasites if any are present. Hopefully it will be broad spectrum enough that you won't have to do anything else.
what temps does the microbelift start to work? We started using it only last year. Started up one of the pumps yesterday and hooked up 1 of the uv lights. I had thought about adding the microbelift, but was unsure when the bacteria would start working. Our thermometer has a leader that sits at the bottom of the deepest part (4ft) and we had readings yesterday of 41-42 degrees.
Which Microbelift product are we talking about here? The antifungal or the bacterial supplement?
http://www.microbeliftstore.com/home/ml1/smartlist_42/fish_care_products.html
I assumed that mm was taking about the antifungal. If not, I gave the wrong advice.
I drained half of my pond yesterday so I could empty my skimmer to drop it a few more inches. I would like to start up the pumps and filter but I thought it might be too early? We had some warm weather(79 one day!!!) and the water temp during the day was at 52 degrees but I new a cold snap was coming so I put it off a bit longer. Besides some fuzzy algae on the sides my water is clear and my fish are healthy. Should I wait a few more weeks?
I always wait until the general long term forecast predicts night temperatures to stay at or above 40. Around here that's usually the end of the third week of March. It might dip below that for a couple of days here and there until mid April, including a feeze, but I just keep everything running. I leave the deicer in the pond, unplugged, until April 10th or so, just in case.
Sounds good. I don't want to do to much cleaning unless I can get in the water without freezing my butt off!
this is the product I bought. The defend one. BTW: I see a fish on it's side in the pond but can't get to it. It is somewhat under a rock ledge and I would need to go into the pond. I should think it's dead and I believe it is the one I wrote about with the patch of white on it that when I treated it with the PP on the Q-tip is felt like a huge gaping hole in it's side. Very felt icky.
Pond Anti Fungal Treatment (DEFEND)
Microbe-lift ANTI-FUNGAL (DEFEND) Treatment provides rapid relief for Whitish Cottony patches on skin or fins and Grayish slime surface on...
See details
$17.95
Quantity:
Linda - how many fish do you have left? I hope this year is better for you than it was last year.
I'm getting old and losing my memory. I think 9 fish are left. I will let you know in about a months time. When they start to venture out of their Koi Hotel!
Okay, I tried to scoop this fish up and it is really alive. So it is not dead which I am glad. I swam like a mad man.
Hey, that's great! The DEFEND will knock off any fungus quickly and any external bacteria. It won't do anything for bacteria that has reached the blood stream and the fish goes septic. There is no pond additive that's 100% effective for a septic fish. That's when you give Baytril injections. If you get Baytril from a vet and want to inject you'll need a quaratine tank with heated water large enough to maintain the fish until warm weather. Koi on Baytril injections need water temps at or above 72°. Do you see obvious signs of ulcers or fungus on any of the fish? If I remember correctly you can repeat the treatment ( 48hrs?? ) if the first round doesn't get all the fungus. I have had to do a repeat treatment.
After you finish the DEFEND treatment(s) wait 24 hours, maybe do a partial water change if the weather cooperates, and then add Microbelift PL if the water is warm enough. How do you like the new filter so far? Are you running the other filters too or just this one for now?
Mary - I was wondering about the temps for the Spring start up Microbelift. I didn't see any temps on the box.
Linda - 9 fish - I am glad you have that many left. I am assuming the remainder seem to be ok? I hope so, you have been through so much. It is hard. Keeping my fingers crossed for you that this year will be better.
Well since this fish that I thought was dead is in fact alive I think I have 10 left. I am only running the new bio filter. I really like the way it has cleared the water up. I bought a large pump as well and the return is creating a lot of bubbles-more than my waterfall does. I do not have the waterfall/skimmer running. It is too dirty and I don't have have time to clean it yet. It has been raining a ton the last 24 hours and I haven't done a second treatment nor have I drained the water down a bit for another treatment. It's supposed to be cold the next few days so I will have to delay my second treatment.
Carolyn - There isn't much information about MicrobeliftPl and temperatures. What I have found seems to indicate that it's inneffective below 50°. My pond temp is staying at about the same temperature as yours, 41 to 42. I have started the Aqua Medzyme dosing because it works in temps as low as 40.
Linda - If you've got bubbles from surface agitation then you have aeration. That's great! We too have had a deluge of rain. I won't be chatting much the next couple of days. Some business stuff has come up plus Master Gardener volunteering will keep me away from the computer until the end of this week. Then following that I've got a short trip to TN planned. Right after that it''s Landscape Design School for three days in Columbus OH. Stuff kind of got jammed up all at once here.
I know I have 9 fish of 11 for certain and they look real good. The other two are dark patterned and I'm still hoping that they just aren't visible in the murky water.
I have huge raccoon paw prints in the mud near the koi pond and in the algae on the shallow plant shelf. They are huge! I've already had to net the front yard goldfish pond. All the goldfish & shubunkins are accounted for and they look good too. But a raccoon so early is not good news. Not good at all.