lol
I'm just outside Memphis which is clay and mine is down right - THE PITS! *see pic*
For many years nothing has been in our back yard except dirt & leaves which I have raked most of them up so we could actually walk. -Seriously. I did leave a decent pile to the side to possibly use.
I'm planning/hoping on a hosta garden in a decent size section - 48 feet long x 13'7" wide. But I know dirt is going to be an issue so I need to do first things first - fix the soil. Any advice?
here is a few things you can do:
You can bag up your leaves, they will decompose in a black trash bag real good and you can then use that on your garden when composted real good. I have about 2 trash bags out here now waiting for spring to be used.
You could throw more stuff onto that pile like cardboard, coffee grounds,egg shells, grass clippings, dead plants ( no diseased ones or gone to seed ones). Do all this in layers and let it all decompose like that while turning it every 2 weeks or so. Depending on the decomposing rate should be done in 6-8 months or so to use on your beds.
You could use them as mulch on your current beds, they will decompose on them as well and enrich the soil inthat current bed.
It is really up to you and what you are willing to do with them. Leaves is a good start to any compost pile. I love them!!
Coffee grounds are a great way to assist the process, just dump them on there!
And. Honestly? If it were me, I would do all of the above but I would also purchase some good manure and/or some good compost from a garden center -- if you can't find other sources. It will give the whole process a boost.
Also, I would choose a relatively modestly sized area to start, you will be amazed how much volume of stuff it takes to cover just a few square feet to any depth. Start small and work your way out, or up to larger areas, would be my suggestion.
Kyla
Ok, thanks. I can swing leaves, coffee grounds, egg shells and whatnot.
Dh can get some kind of stuff called "pro mix", whatever that is. It is dark brown and smells to high heaven - maybe manure with other stuff?
We used it last year and I can say that everything in my beds grew wonderfully. His friend owns a local landscape place and swears it's the best stuff available out here. I think he got it for like 30 bucks or something really cheap. Only problem is hauling in who knows how many trailers full of it. I need a ton. Here's comes the back breaker! lol
Oh jeez - you've got an incredible connection!
Even if you can only swing a couple loads, it would be worth getting your hands on it.
As Kyla pointed out, layering requires a great volume of materials; working a part of that bed would be beneficial & rewarding, while waiting for the composting to happen in the remainder.
Another material that I've made good use of is shredded paper from the business I work for: plentiful & free, plus it works great & breaks down quickly. During the winter, I layer it with coffee grounds & anything else I can get mey hands on.
yea, money is not the problem - it's manpower! lol Dh works all the time so I'm the only one who will be here to unload this stuff! Maybe my 12 year old son can help. *yikes*
So do you know what pro mix is? I'd just like to know what's in it. Maybe I'll google.
Not sure - but the nurseries out this way use it.
so far I've only found this...
Contains Canadian sphagnum peat moss, perlite, vermiculite, macro nutrients and micro-nutrients, limestone (for ph adjustment) and wetting agents making is suitable for indoor or outdoor planting.
I'm familiar with Pro mix as potting soil, that I like, (which that sounds like) but not sure if the landscapers stuff would be that. But if its cheap enough, who cares!
If your in clay soil, the first thing you need to do is add Gypsum. It is a soft mineral that does not allow clay to bond together. If you use it you will be amazed. We live in east Texas and have red clay you can role into balls, bake and make marbles. Clay in itself is very nutritious so the Gypsum is the most important thing you can add. Next, when it comes to organic matter, everyone says add this and add that. What you add is not as important as how much you add. All the table scraps added to a 5 gal. bucket would take a year to fill up because it is always braking down. Clay soil will break down organic matter very fast so add anything you can get your hands on and turn it under and the soil will break it down in weeks. The thing to remember is quantity not quality.
I also use Pro-Mix potting soil, but it is sold in bags, not by the truckload.
I'd add any and all organic matter to the soil in question, but I wouldn't buy gypsum. If I were to spend money I'd search for a good compost from a garden center. In reality I'm too cheap for either of these options, so I'd use free stuff- leaves, grass clippings, coffee grounds from a coffee shop, straw, whatever I could get.
Karen
I can find gypsum by looking for the discarded drywall at any home construction site in my neighborhood, which is still being built. Can't beat a price tag of zero.
My best friend, next door, is a home builder and remodeler and could be an endless source of new drywall scraps from construction and old drywall from demolition. I have in the past looked up the use of drywall in compost and gardening and decided against it.
Drywall is not pure gypsum. It is made of other materials as well. These can include fiberglass, glue, and chemicals to impart anti-mildew and fire-resistant properties. Not things I'd want in my soil. Doesn't make tomatoes grown in that soil sound very appealing either.
A little googling also provided information that in the past some drywall included asbestos in it's manufacture. I'll stick to leaves and grass clippings and coffee and the like.
Drywall: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-drywall.htm
MSDS: http://www.usg.com/USG_Marketing_Content/usg.com/web_files/Documents/MSDS/ShtrkGypsum_Panels-MSDS_54-000-001.pdf
Karen
A 50 lb. bag of gypsum cost about $8. and will go a long way. We have two big Oaks in the center of our driveway and they are in very hard clay. We noticed that they were hurting in real dry year so we treated with gypsum and now you can see the rain soaking in, instead of running off. Anyone who suggest not using gypsum on clay soils does not understand the makeup of soil. I am not saying that organic matter is not important, it is but gypsum needs to be first or you will not be able to work in what you need,without killing yourself. When gypsum is used it is so much easier to dig, roots grow much faster, water soaks in instead of running of etc...
I didn't say that one should never use it. I said I'm cheap and use free stuff. The only money I have ever spent for composting was an occasional $7 bale of straw for carbon when I ran out of hoarded fall leaves in summer, and couldn't come up with enough free "browns" to balance all the greens on hand.
Many people in rural areas seem to have access to free straw and/or hay, manure, farm waste. For me in suburbia, I use a lot of free grass clippings, fall leaves, and yard waste, coffee grounds from a coffee shop, whatever is available. Some I compost, some I apply to the soil as mulch.
Kenboy, you apparently misread my post. I said "I'd add any and all organic matter to the soil in question, but I wouldn't buy gypsum. If I were to spend money I'd search for a good compost from a garden center. In reality I'm too cheap for either of these options, so I'd use free stuff- leaves, grass clippings, coffee grounds from a coffee shop, straw, whatever I could get." Nowhere did I say that gypsum should never be used.
This approach has served me well. I've never added gypsum and my previously rotten clay and it's now very nice rich black soil.
Karen
I appreciate everyones help and advice.
Karen, I am like you.... I have money to go buy whatever, but why do that when there are tons of "free things" I can use right here at home. I have been saving coffee grounds, egg shells, piles of leaves and my neighbor has grass clippings to give me. With a combination of all of these things I wouldn't think I should have to go buy anything, but I will probably use the gypsum just to try for myself. Fresh manure is also available just a couple of miles from here at a small horse stable. I'm sure they wouldn't mind me getting some if I shovel it myself. As I said earlier, I may get a couple of trailer loads of the promix stuff just to add in, but that's only about 30 bucks or so for a lot. I still don't know if I will need it or not, but as I continue to work I will eventually come to a conclusion. With the combination of all these things and everyones help, surely I will get this clay soil much better.
Good luck. Clay soil can have it's advantages, it just needs a little help sometimes. I hope it turns out well for you.
Karen
I live in suburbia too, so I'm constantly buried in grass clippings, coffee grounds, and other greens. To stock up on browns I've been shredding my non-glossy junk mail all winter, and keeping it out in my garage in cardboard boxes left over from shopping online. I offer my heartfelt thanks to John McCain, Barack Obama, Amazon.com, and several credit card companies for keeping me supplied with copious quantities of compostables.
Yes, we all got and continue to get that junk. The junk mail just never stops. I have managed to remove myself from the mailing lists of some the credit card offers, but the new ones continue to surface.
I haven't been near my compost, or any other part of my yard, for weeks. It has been treacherous, solid ice. Yesterday started a really significant melt down. I hope to wake tomorrow and find it all gone.
I have had a bucket of UCGs sitting in my garage for several weeks. I couldn't get out to empty it because of the ice. Finally today I dumped it into a bed in front of my front porch, after that walkway ice melted. It was -8 degrees when I left for work Thursday morning. By Friday afternoon it was 54 degrees. Go figure. I hope spring springs soon.
Karen
Karen, I did not misread your post but I think you misread mine. You said you would not buy gypsum. That means you would need to add organic mater for several years before you could loosen up the soil enough for easy digging. That could be as little as a few weeks by adding gypsum. I also read 2racingboys post where she says money is not the problem, it's manpower. I now live in east Texas where the soil is acidic. Years ago I lived in Fort Worth where the soil was alkaline. I have always composted in a big way but the soil is different here, even though both places are clay base. Here I can add lime to my compost and it will help break it down faster and help to neutralize the soil. When I lived in Fort Worth, lime would be the last thing my soil needed, but both places benefited by adding gypsum. Gypsum will raise the pH some, so the soil may need to be adjusted. Sulphur to lower the pH and lime to raise it. 2racingboys says she wants hostas, which like their soil to be acidic. You add organic matter to enrich the soil and you add gypsum to loosen the soil so it can be worked and to help it hold more water.
I live 12 miles out of the city but get most of my compost material ( leaves and grass trimmings ) from city people who have no need for the stuff, go figure. I started late this year so I am a little behind on my compost pile. It is 30' X 20' X 6' high. In previous years it has been 30' X 30' X 9' high. I to am cheep and do not want to pay, when so many people just set bagged leaves out to be carried off to take up space in some land fill when it could be making my flowers grow.
I have had people pull up to our home, get out of their car and say someone put you in a nice clay driveway. I tell them, that is where someone took a bulldozer and push the topsoil off to use for our housepad. Then they look at our yard and say how can you grow plants like that, in soil like this. I tell the gypsum and compost.
Here is a picture of our hosta bed in 2002.
Here is the same bed a year later.
wow, I could just pull up a chair. beautiful
Beautiful, Kenboy.
I have slightly alkaline clay. I don't generally alter the pH, except for once I used sulfur to get pink hydrangeas. Rather, I make for less effort on my part and grow plants which either like or tolerate the soil. No gypsum involved, no tilling, just compost and "garbage".
Karen
This was a new border I made by lasagna garden over a previous lawn area. Seelings planted.
Same area, a few months later. No gypsum was added to that hard clay, only "garbage" in the form of grass clippings, lots of leaves, UCGs, yard waste... And it's honestly wonderful soil. This was in 2007 when we had our worst heat/drought ever.
Karen
Karen, your stuff looks great!
I have been working all weekend on one section of the new hosta bed.
So far I have added a total of 400 pounds of manure compost that I bought at Lowe's.
I thought I'd just try 10 bags to see what difference it would make, if any before I go get a trailer full. It actually is looking much better. I went to 2 different places for the gypsum but they didn't have it. I will call around tomorrow to see if I can find it at a nursery near by.
Here's a pic after I got it mixed up pretty good. Still looks pretty clayish to me.
I'll bet the worms will turn your clay into nice fluffy soil in nothing flat, once the weather warms up.
It does still look pretty much like tan clay. I don't think hostas are too picky about the soil they sink their feet into though, are they? How did you mix it? With a tiller or by hand? It sounds like a lot of work, especially for an area as large as yours.
I'm sure it will work out fine for you in the end. There are many ways to improve soil, I just take the lazy, cheap way out and it works great for me. Some years ago I turned over my tomato bed with a digging fork. The weed seeds that sprouted after that were unbelievable, a real plague. I vowed then and there to never, ever, dig up a bed again, and I have held true to that. ( I don't own a tiller, have never used one in my life). I now just cover everything with cardboard, wet it, pile the organic matter on top, and let Mother Nature do the work for me. She hasn't disappointed me yet.
Good luck with your soil and new bed project. I hope you'll post pictures of the finished product.
Karen
Thanks Karen.
It's going to be a long, hard road, but I'm taking it no matter what. There just is no other way. Starting from scratch with this kind of soil is very discouraging, but I know it can be done and I'm doing what I can to make it happen. I will most certainly post pics when it's all said & done. It's no fun until the project is complete & seen in living color!
PuddlePirate, it's funny you mention worms because I haven't seen one single worm all weekend. I was just saying on another thread the other day that I'd never pay 20 bucks for worms, but I may end up eating those words! lol I hope worms do come soon cause I sure can use their help!
The worms will come. They always do.
One other thing that slipped my mind: cover crops! The right ones can really break up clay and improve the soil when crushed or turned under.
http://tinyurl.com/c268f9
You might find some handy tips on cover crops here:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/898057/
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/795239/
http://rodaleinstitute.org/choosing_the_best_cover_crops
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/covercrop.html
http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/ccrop/
General info on maintaining healthy soil:
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/9/ (soil basics)
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/208/ (no-till gardening)
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/935/ (microbes)
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/1936/ (more microbes)
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/727/ (rock dust & micronutrients)
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/722/ (fungi)
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/776/ (more fungi)
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/1109/ (even more fungi)
And who knew that weeds can actually be useful?
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/1530/
dang, I've got some reading to do! lol
I need to send you some beer! :D
Mmmmmm. Beer.
LOL at Puddle Pirate.
(Beer sounds good to me, too).
great links Puddle Pirate, I've wanted to know more about cover crops for a while. We put down topsoil, then planted clover thinking that might do the trick, but hardly any of the clover came up. So, I've got lots of reading to do too. LOL
One more cover crop chart:
http://groworganic.com/pdf/covercropsolutionschart.pdf (it's a PDF file)
If you'd rather skip the research and take the "carpet bombing" approach, you can try a cover crop seed mix:
http://territorialseed.com/product/1251/69
http://groworganic.com/search.html?welcome=T&pCommand=DoSearch&pMode=Search&sText=soil%20builder%20mix&sCategory=catalog&theses=4108704
Just make sure that you either get pre-inoculated seed or else get the correct inoculant to add to raw seed:
http://groworganic.com/cgy_366.html
2racingboys: Once you get adequate organic matter into the soil to attract them, the worms will come. Mine seem especially attracted by decaying leaves and decaying roots in the soil. I leave many, if not most, of the roots of my annuals in the soil all winter. In spring there are always worms entwined in and around those roots.
Worms eat decaying organic matter. If there isn't any of that in your soil for them to eat, they will be few and far between.
Karen
Karen, I have mixed in quite a bit of decomposed leaves and the manure compost in one bed I have already started. Surely they will come soon. I know we are expecting a lot of rain over the next few days, maybe that will help.
2racingboys: Seeing worms is definitely dependent on soil temperature and moisture, too. I see them most in spring and fall. Then the soil temperature is somewhat moist and moderate and the worms come up near the surface. Our summers are usually pretty hot and dry and it seems the worms just dive deep to some moisture, leaving behind their huge network of tunnels. In fall when temps are more moderate and the rains return, the worms surface again.
It's only in recent years that I have all these worms. I've been using my homemade compost for many years, but until I went organic and stopped using pesticides and chemical ferts, I didn't have this big population of worms. (One of those "duh!" moments.)
If you haven't read "The Earth Moved: On the Remarkable Achievements of Earthworms" by Amy Stewart, I highly recommend it. It sounds boring but is really an interesting read.
http://www.amazon.com/Earth-Moved-Remarkable-Achievements-Earthworms/dp/1565123379
Another favorite is "Teaming with Microbes: A Gardner's Guide to the Soil Food Web". It's another really good read.
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microbes-Gardeners-Guide-Soil/dp/0881927775
Karen
PP, inoculated seed, never heard of it before & not sure why it makes the seed viable, but thanks for the links so I can figure it out. I'm definitely ordering some summer cover crop seeds to try it.
Karen, yesterday I picked up a trash can size bag of coffee grounds, yay for me, I so want to be organic!
I'm gonna try lasagna again, so let me know if this is correct: organic matter, then cardboard or newspaper, more organic matter like manure? to finish it off. Once I do that, I can start on another area or future planting bed. How much coffee/ manure would you use? Just enough to cover the area well or pile it on thick?
I've been interested in the "lasagna" too but doesn't it take a long time to be ready for planting?
