Do You Want Vent ....................!!!!!!!!!

What makes me angry is I live in a small town and just have locally homegrown greenhouses and only one that carries a bit of everything.Before I learned of this site I was quite uninformed about plants.Now that I have learned more about a little of everything and learn more everyday.I am angry!!!!!! I have had quite a few plants and was never told that I could keep them in the house over winter,I was just told that, "now you know this is an annual".For example I had a Beautiful ,now I'm not sure if it was a, Lotus Vine, Parrot's Beak Lotus maculatus or a Parrot's Beak, Coral Gem, Pelican's Beak Lotus berthelotii , but needless to say I don't have it anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And now another thing that bugs me is when you see a plant ,it's beautiful,it's perfect ,you have to have it and all the tag says is ...Tropical.Don't you just love that.At least give me a common name!


That is my vent of the day.What is yours?????

So thank you everyone here for teaching me!!!!!!!!!! You each have something to teach someone.And I am very greatful.

This was my plant at least I did get a picture.

Oh what a lovely plant, and what a shame.....
MMmmm, thinking of something I want to vent about but maybe I should wake up first. LOL

wow if I had that plant I would have saved it no matter what! Its gorgeous!

Can you go back to where you bought it, show them the picture, and ask what it is? Maybe they can find out, especially if you hint that you would buy it again.

If you liked that one, you might like Clianthus puniceus - the Lobster claw plant. The foliage is different,though,and the colors more monochromic.

synda, I know what you mean. I've received such bad advice at nurseries it's unreal. In New Orleans, we have to worry about what can take the heat & humidity. It's awful to purchase a plant in springtime only to have it die under the summer sun a few months later. I've taken to carrying around my favorite southern plant book, "The Southern Living Garden Book." When I point out to them that their plant really can't survive here, they usually get very upset.

Well, it's my garden & my money. I want to know what's in it, how to care for it, and will it surive.
Jo-Ann

That plant in the photo is an example of something that probably would not live here for that reason, Jo-Ann. I have never seen it for sale here although I have seen it in catalogs.

There are two distinct facets to 'plant hardiness'...cold tolerance, which is what everyone focuses on, and heat tolerance, which is just as important but always seemingly overlooked.

We can grow things like tulips, poppies, foxglove, daffodils, huecheras, hostas and that sort of stuff for only an extremely short time in the late winter/early spring here. We have had 90 degree temps here in MARCH sometimes, although that is not the usual, but by April 1st its hot here and has been for a month or more. The pansies I plant in November/December are usually history by March 15. People plant their lettuce seeds here in December and January because by March and April its already getting a bit warm. The good lettuces are gone out of the farmer's market by May 1st usually.

They say that where we live is a 'hump' zone, it freezes too regularly to plant a lot of really tropical stuff out, but by the same token, its way too hot for a lot of very cool flowering plants as well.

I have azaleas blooming right now...and NOT the native winter blooming once...these are the ones that are supposed to wait til April.

My Lotus plants have survived our 105-110 degree heat waves and fairly frequent temps in the 90-100 range without any signs of stress. I'm not sure whether they're fond of humidity or not since our summers are very dry, but the heat at least isn't a problem.

That's good to know, but I have never, EVER seen that plant anywhere here.

I looked it up, its from the Canary Islands and supposedly heat and humidity are not problems, but it also supposedly needs minimum temps of no less than 40F

It's perennial here and even though I'm in 9a we get frost quite often and temps in the 28-32 range during the winter and I've never had any trouble. We've had one night this year that got down to 24 and a couple nights of 26-27 and mine is still doing fine, no signs of damage even though it's in an area of the yard that definitely gets frost. I'm not sure if mine are L. bertheloti or L. maculatus though, I think there's a lot of confusion over which is which since I've seen identical looking plants named as both of those. But I've bought some labeled as each and they've all done fine, so I'm sure in a part of the country like FL where your cold nights are less frequent than ours it might even survive into zone 8.

Wow I can;t even find an online source for it. I'd love to try it so will be looking for it for certain.

This is what I have found on here:

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/1250/

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/37947/

But I'm not sure which it is.This spring I am going back to the GH and asking if they have any again.......and inform him that it can be brought inside!

Synda,

Your plant is Lotus maculatus.

It is easy to grow from cuttings. It prefers cool weather, but, will tolerate heat if the air is dry and it gets shade during the hottest part of the day. It is widely grown in California, especially near the coast with their moderate summer temps.

I have grown it here as a winter annual. Most bedding plant growers, down here, won't grow it because it is difficult to keep going during the hot, humid summer months. Up north, where you are, it requires a heated greenhouse - that makes it expensive for them.

I worked at a local garden center and that was one of my pet peeves - calling plants annuals when they're just not hardy here. I always explained the difference to customers. We would research plants that didn't come with good information and/or we didn't know about. Good advise was one of the main reasons people came back again and again....
With several plants I have, I try to not assume that they won't make it. I have a couple of plants that I'm testing this winter - a sky vine and a Stromanthe 'Tristar'. I do cover them when it's going to get below freezing, but other than that, they're on their own.
I also have a greenhouse, so the plants I know won't make it, I can bring in there.
As far as poor labeling goes, that can be very frustating...but..... Several times, at the local box stores, I have found great plants, that because of poor labeling, the store had put on sale to get rid of them. I got about 10 hardy orchids (Bletilla striata) for $2.50 because the store thought they were "indoor foliage plants". AND - with my Stromanthe 'Tristar', it may not be that at all, but may be 'Ctenanthe lubbersiana'. It had no label when I got it from a friend and after reacerching it here, I found out that these two plants are often mislabeled.
Barb

"You can't grow that here!"

>:(

That line frosts my cookies. I wish at least one local nursery would take a little time to get the knowledge to break out of the mold. I have been told by haughty nursery owners that I *cannot* grow my basjoo bananas (two years outside now), my Stephan's jasmine (three years outside), my Carolina jessamine "Margarita" (three years outside), my yellow groove bamboo (p. aureosulcatus four years outside), my Japanese bitter orange (poncirus trifoliata, four years outside), or my needle palm (three years outside) in this zone.

When they say "you can't grow banana plants or citrus outside in Ohio" I tell them "SHHHHH! Don't say that too loud. My plants might hear you."

I know that some of these plants can be marginal and require more consideration than the hardier plants most nurseries stock, still the attitude in many nurseries keeps perfectly hardy plants from buyers simply because no one else seems to be growing them.

The rate of change in the nursery trade seems to be paced according to some of the slower growing species of trees. Nurseries change like bristlecone pines. :(

-Joe

I hear your vents and feel much the same, but you have to remember that nurseries exist to make money for themselves, not feed our plant obsessions! Dave's Garden folk aren't like the buyers nurseries normally see, not by a long shot!

We did a couple of weekends at a farmer's market this year and it was an eye opener. People don't want a plant like Callas or Caladiums that they might have to dig up in the fall. They don't want a plant like a fruiting banana that they might have to take inside. They don't want to water, they don't want to pinch back, they don't want to do any work at all. They don't want to buy a plant that will bloom in two weeks, they want one blooming right now. Mostly, all they want is a beautiful plant that blooms constantly all year long, no matter what they do to it.

LOL. I'm serious! That's the type of people that nurseries have to sell to, so that is why they call certain perennials "annuals" . They have to sell plants that are guaranteed to grow for the most idiotic of gardeners, and they have to remain diplomatic enough, and sell easy enough plants to keep customers returning. Most customers don't want to know the botanical name, they will forget it anyhow. Your basjoo may grow just fine, another customer in a cooler microclimate will lose theirs, and blame the nursery.

Synda, you're actually lucky to have a homegrown nursery in the area. Maybe you can talk with them and get them to grow certain plants for you. We live in an area that has only large box stores that get their plants from a huge wholesaler. Not much unusual stuff there! Although our Lowes did have a 5 ft dark phormium that I lusted after, it was expensive and not hardy here, but if I were single..... lol.

That's especially true if it's a nursery that offers any sort of money back guarantee on their plants--they have to focus on "idiot proof" plants that are pretty much guaranteed to do well in your climate no matter what, if they sell something that you'd have to protect for the winter or bring indoors, most people aren't going to bother doing that and then they bring back the dead plant for a refund. Or even without a money back guarantee, if there's a plant that's a bit borderline for your area but could survive under a certain set of conditions and the person who buys it either doesn't entirely follow directions or doesn't quite have the right sheltered location, the customer is going to be mad and not shop at that nursery again. So they tell you that things that are borderline aren't going to be hardy, and they'll tell you that anything that won't survive your winter outdoors is an annual. And then combine all of that with the fact that many nursery and garden center employees don't really have much knowledge and training on plants in the first place...this is why we need places like DG where people can share their experiences.

lakesidecallas, your statements reminded me of a garden seminar I went to several years ago. It was a seminar on shade gardening. What everyone who was there wanted out of a plant was:
will it grow in shade?
will it BLOOM in shade?
will it bloom YEAR ROUND (ie is it hardy and perennial?)
will it tolerate the melting heat here in August?
do I have to dig it up?

the guy conducting the seminar was kind of taken aback. I think he expected an audience that was at least geared toward tending to plants.

You'd be surprised how many people will drop $25 on a plant that the seller TELLS them isn't hardy here. People are more than willing to spend dollars here.

The worst thing is when ignorant people see plants at box stores that are there for the specific reason of 'testing the waters', and the box store employees know nothing about them.

Last year they had Bottle Palms (hyophorbe lagencaulis) and their cousins the Spindle Palms for sale pretty cheap here. There isn;t any way either of these palms will make it here...the Bottle is only hardy down to about 35-38F! But they flew out of the store. I wonder how many died?

I have 2 bottles and 2 spindles in my greenhouse and they do well. But in the ground? No.

Well said! both of you.

I so understand that cookie frosting about the nurseries..I mean I've been through the whole gamit of that misinformation. mislable on the plants . In fact it drove me to DG originally. What lakesidecallas and Ecrane said is sooo true, I've seen it first hand, the type of customers nurseries have to cater to.
I learned the hard way...reading the tags...full sun, to ask the question, full sun where? Seattle, or Texas. I've killed of quite a few plants along the way, and realized that in general nurseries aren't the first place to get advice, further realizing that information on plants can be quite the pandoras box when trying to track it down on the internet.
Even though it frustrated me, and still does at times, had I not gone through the learning process with these things I had to vent on, I would not be the gardener I am today. Having experienced these frustrations led me to re-direct the questions to the source itself. The plants. True, it's a game of 20 questions, that later narrows down as one learns to read the signs. In the end as I said, the process taught me to rely on myself by recognizing the the plants abilities and limitations based on geographics and climates. It would be awsome if most nurseries were run by those of us that are plant nuts. In fact the ones that are run by hobbyist don't make alot of money, but are fantastic on a variety of levels.
It's so true what lakeside said about the DG shoppers not being the common variety customer.
I think the epiphany about nurseries not being a place to go to for guidance, was similar to realizing my parents weren't the all knowing super beings I'd once thought, and that they were just muddling through the best way they could like everyone else.

Now doesn't it frost your cookies that when you go to the internet to find out about how to take care of a plant, what it needs and it's a wild goose chase of tantalizing dead end tid bits. Even here at DG, it would be nice to have a section of the PF that had a structured gardeners tips and experience with that plant. But like the other venting experiences, this too probably leads to more self reliance, knowing how to phrase my questions for the answers I need and whom to ask.
I will say, that it's because of the people here at DG and our ability to exchange experiences that expotentially expanded a successful garden experience for me!

Rj

RJ, I call it PlantPiles....

spindle palms in sarasota>

Dale, could you tell me your procedure for taking cuttings from the Lotus? Do you root them in water or what? They are so "ferny" I'm not sure what to do.

This is one of my favorites too.

Callas,

Cut pieces 3" long, stick them in a 6" pot of good potting soil about a third of their length, tent them with clear plastic, mist daily (early). Careful that they don't get direct sun for the first couple weeks.

No need to remove the leaves and use a pencil to make the hole to insert them. Make sure they have good contact with the soil. I put 10 in a 6" pot, fills in nicely.

When they start to show growth uncover and slowly increase the light levels until the are in full to part day sun. Takes about 6 weeks.

Most 'trailing' plants are easy to root using the above method. I think it is in their nature to root as they grow across the ground.

Thank you! What is the plant in the photo?

Full sun plants grown under shade cloth!

Until I did a little leg work I got literally burnt buying full sun plants that had been recently kept under shade cloth. Now I won't buy plants that I need for my most exposed area unless they are currently in full sun at the garden center / nursery. I do understand that one is to acclimate plants to their places, but I don't have the space do do that - I need them to be able to get into the ground ASAP.

One of my Home Depots keeps sun plants in full sun, my local Armstrong has sun plants in full, all day sun, and my favorite local nursery (Perssons) has trees and shrubs in full dry sun - but not smaller shrubs and perennials - they are under shade cloth!

LOL! Dale...too funny

Back to my vent and the two replies, I understand the economics involved, but it's not so much what local nurseries *sell*, it's what they *say*. From the conversations I have had, with one highly noteable exception, there's pretty much a flat out dismissal of anything they do not sell. That bothers me.

I am DEEPLY thankful for the Plantfiles, and for the expertise of so many regular DG'ers! :)

-Joe

Wow, my experience seems to be the totally opposite. I prefer going to the mom and pop nurseries here in Sarasota. It's the big mega-stores that will cheat you.
For example, here in zone 10 a you can purchase 'Hostas' in the store. They won't grow here! Maybe up in Gainesville. Also, I've seen Flowering Cherries for sale!
No matter how you spell it, whether incompetence or cheating they should not be sold here.
I am familiar enough with most plants to know whether an employee knows their stuff or not. Sometimes I come across something that I'll buy like a little grass that was labeled bamboo. It was not a bamboo at all.

Kalpavriksha,

There are a couple of flowering cherries (and plums) that do grow here, they are hard to find. The big retailers don't have them.

Tabebuia is a good substitute for the flowering cherry>

Just found this thread.

Greenhouses around here are the same as far as selling many tropicals as 'annuals' during the spring.
The one good thing about that is, the plants are relatively 'cheap' when purchased as 'annuals' during the spring as opposed to buying them online.

From someone who has tried it (more than once!), it might be some consolation (Ü) to tell you that that particular plant is very difficult to maintain indoors over the winter.....I've lost a couple of the one you have pictured, and at least three of the more common Lotus with the red blooms.

I've found it hard to grow here in Wisconsin, too, where we have some very hot and humid periods during our summers.

Syn, that was a lovely plant or should I say lovely flower!

Ok, but I own a small greenhouse business. Let me tell you a couple things (from the other side):
When the average person asks you if a plant is an annual or a perennial, they aren't planning on doing anything special to it. They mean they are going to plant it out in the ground and leave it there forever. And if it doesn't come back next year, they're going to be unhappy. So you tell them it's an annual. You might go on and explain further that they could be carried over in the house, but sometimes then people think that sounds like the plant requires a lot of care, and they don't buy it because it's too fussy to care for.
I do tell people of annuals that can be carried over in the house or greenhouse, but most people don't want to go to the effort. Maybe one in 10 will really listen or care.
But, if you want to be really technical, you can bring in almost everything you plant if you have proper conditions to grow it overwinter. I have a petunia basket that's two years old, and a banana that's four. And a brugmansia that's at least 7 years old. I have a tomato plant from last year that I'm picking today. My sis has a pepper plant that's about 5 years old. But you have to be realistic that most people aren't going to want to hear that you can bring in your pepper plants, so where do you stop? Of course if someone asks, I can tell them in detail, but most people don't ask.
And another thing....
It's really, really, really hard to keep things in the full sun at a nursery/greenhouse. The plants suffer in quality if they're not constantly tended to when they're potted in a full sun situation. They will wilt if they don't get enough water, if they're in bud when they don't get enough water, many of the flower buds will dry up and fall off, and lots people won't buy flowering plants that aren't showing color. No matter if that's not really a good time to be transplanting them. Which it's normally not. Most people will choose the plant that's flowering. Then the poor thing that lost it's buds because it's sitting in the full sun and got a little dry, that one doesn't sell at all. And that takes manpower with all that watering and checking on them, and then that drives up the price, then customers say you're too pricey--and then you all buy it online or home depot instead because it's 50 cents cheaper. That's why you see them here and at a lot of smaller nurseries/greenhouses with a little shade cloth....So cut us just a little slack, please...lol...
You do see plants sitting in full sun at Home Depot, well that's because it's cheaper for HOme depot to do it that way. They don't care if they have a lot of shrinkage (loss) on their truckload of plants. I heard from a manager once that they don't have anything really to do with the plants that they get in except to water them. If a plant dies, they sit it aside and then when the rep comes around they pick it up and give home depot a credit for it. So it's much cheaper for the store to not provide plush surroundings that are going to keep the plants alive long term. Now at my place, when I kill a plant, I don't have anyone coming here to give me a credit on it. It's in my best interest to keep them alive, looking good, and sell them. Dead plants are not good for me! Hence, you might see a little shade cloth to keep them from broiling in the hot afternoon sun.
Sometimes those plants are unloaded or tended by people who don't know/don't care at all. I saw carts of poinsettias at Walmart here that were sitting outside waiting to be placed into the store sitting outside for at least 45 minutes while I was doing some shopping there. They were outside when I got there, and outside when I left, it was only 20 degrees outside. I'm sure if they were even sellable they performed really well for the people who bought them, aren't you? This is the same store that was selling begonia baskets (not the sun tolerant kind) outdoors in full sun last spring. Well they were for a week or so until they looked so bad they killed them and had to get credit on them. What a shame!
I do grow lots of unusual and different things that you don't see at "normal" places. But you can't grow all unusual plants, something has to pay the bills, too. And most people expect to see some normal plants like hostas too...
I don't lie to people or sell things that don't belong here without telling people what care is required. Please don't lump us all together. (And I know that basjoo and yellow groove bamboo grow in zone 5, I sell and have both planted in our display gardens! I heard that you couldn't grow them here for years too!)
But there are good reasons for some of the complaints here on this thread. And I agree, some people just don't care and will lie to you to get things sold. But I think it's not the majority.

Good for you sandy and I totally agree. Our HD takes relatively good care of their plants, however, down the road at Lowe's it's dreadful. The loss they have is terrible so why they even try is beyond me. I very rarely buy there because I know what's not been done. However, in the back they sell the ND (Nearly Dead) for sometimes as much as 80%off. I have bought some of them just for a challenge. Not a good investment for sure. The rate of survival is almost nil, but I feel sorry for some and try and give them a second chance. LOL.

Good luck withe the upcoming season. Sell your bloomers off. hehehe

Hap

Sandy... I too run a Nursery and sell hoyas. While I agree with synda I think that it behooves all of us to thoroughly research the plants we buy and even sell. When asked 'will that grow in my area' I have to ask: What is your rainfall? Where will you plant it? What is your soil...do you have soil? How tall are your trees? yaddayaddayadda.

When asked, how often should I water this hoya...I am stumped! What is your relative humidity? What are you using for planting medium? How often is often?

Not to diminish your points, which are very well taken, synda, perhaps it is more a point of communication. I urge my buyers to be aware of the growing preferences of the plant in question...not how I grow it.

:>)

I would just love for them to say ,as an outside plant it is an annual ,but you can take it inside as a houseplant over the winter when it's a high $$$ plant.

Agreed!!! You are so right!

Or tag it as an annual and a tropical houseplant for our zone.

I think it is a case of the wrong employees on the job... Even here where it is assumed everyone knows how to grow the common plants, misinformation abounds!!!

I was never even told it was a tropical,he just said it's an annual and he was the owner.Now that I know more I won't just trust someone that grows and sells to know what they are talking about.I just feel as a consumer that if I ask I should get a knowledgeable answer.Know your product or don't sell it ,or at least tell me a little bit so I know what direction to go in.

Sunset Western Gardening Book is a good bible to take along to those places!!!!

Thank you.