Mystery - Year 2

Looks like broadmite damage, but ... no evidence of mites, no exoskeletons, no live mites ... just distorted tissue. I used a good hand lens as well as a microscope. The fuzzy hairs on the leaves looked like stlagmites. I found dirt particles and small crystals in various sizes ( our water is mineral rich), but nothing else. The plants had been in the greenhouse for about 4 weeks when the symptoms started a few days ago on 2 plants. Today I found a few more plants with distorted leaves. The thermostat is set to 50ºF. Temperatures in the greenhouse vary quite a bit, but that's the norm here in south Central Texas. I'm pretty sure I don't have broadmites.

This is the second year this has happened. I used Avid for the first time last year, without results. Used it as directed — twice seven days apart. Could this be a nutrient deficiency? Of what? Or could it be because the temperatures are fluxuating so much? I am stumped! I have some Bayer's 2 in 1 Systemic that I'm tempted to use.

Veronica, have you ruled out white fly?

Yes, if white flies were the problem, I would see them when I moved the leaves. That's what is so puzzling. I don't see any evidence of pests being present.

Well,I have to say that looks like serious mite damage but since you have ruled that out I'm stumped.I have seen it posted here that broadmites can be internal.Don't know if that is accurate or not.I hope I never get to see that in person.

Veronica, sorry, but I'd guess you need to reconsider the possibility of broadmites, that damage looks like textbook broadmite work.

It can take very few broadmites to cause really obvious damage on new growth, and they don't necessarily hang out solely on top of the damaged leaf tissue. If I had that plant in front of me, I'd find a comfortable chair and spend a good half hour looking over ALL the surfaces of the plant, slowly, tediously, with a 20X lens. Then I'd repeat the search. You might only find a few broadmites, each looking like a tiny, clear drop of water with almost invisible legs, marching across leaf or stem surfaces that don't show any damage yet. That could be enough to have started up the damage shown in your picture.

Sorry if it seems I'm suggesting something you've already tried, but I bet you do have some broadmites tormenting your plants.

Shirley has suggested it might be a calcium deficiency which shows up as distorted leaves also. I'm going to check the pH of the soil as well tomorrow and apply some gypsum.

What bothers me is that Avid should have taken care of the broadmites last year, but didn't. The new growth continued to distort. Once I took the plants out of the greenhouse and the weather warmed up all the plants, but Earth Angel, sent out new healthy leaves. I haven't used it yet this year.

JT, Would Avid kill internal broadmites? And how does one tell if there are broadmites present if they are present internally? What else can you tell me about them?

I purchasing an oz. of Forbid through a coop, but that will take a few weeks to get here. The weather is supposed to get colder so I'll bring one of the affected plants indoors and spend more time checking it out, but between the loupe and the microscope, I should have been able to see some evidence of mites.

Veronica,I would go with a systemic for anything internal.I use both Ortho and Bayer systemics.Now please understand,I don't say that broadmites are internal.I'm just passing on something someone else has said.I do know that other plants can have internal mites.Hippeastrums are a classic case.
If that were my plant I would strip every leaf,including the tiny tip ones,then cover all surfaces with soap solution,then use the systemic.If it was a common,easily replaced variety it would have already burned it.
Calcium deficiency causes cupped leaves,especially in winter, but the leaves are normal appearing otherwise.

veronica...I never had much luck.. with forbid for broad mites.. but the repeated avid sprayings did seen to work..Avid is a polylaminar I believe .. meaning you don't necessarly have to get under the leaf to get them... but that if you spray on the top of the leaf.. it will move through the leaf to get to the ones on the other side.. this aspect alone should kill any that have residency inside a leaf.. if that does i n deed happen
Microscope..what power do you have on it... I've looked with my 10X lens and never seen one onan infected plant.. they have some nice ne digital ones I lust for. output to the screen... in some amazing powers... but not inexpencive in the least.....one bills it's self as a portable crime lab... sing CSI as useing them...
nutrint defencity.. perhaps... I'm most unaware of the ins and outs there.. I just give them alll too much of everything.. in hopes it balances out somehow..

I used the warm water method on all my plants when I brought them in, and spray with a mix of Bayer and Ortho about once a month on everything since broadmites like to feed many of the plants I bring in ..my brugs are happiest when they get the Mix spray on them..

Veronica,

I thought of your plants when I read this thread on the tomato forum
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/940917/

How are your plants doing?

Jerry

Hi Jerry, So far only 3 have the symptoms. I fertilized everything but the plumerias lightly about 2 weeks ago. The new growth on those three is still distorted. My DH doesn't remember the size of the heater he installed, but the exhaust vent is 8" in diameter. The weird thing is that none of the Brugs closer to the heater are affected. The three plants are at the farthest side of the greenhouse. Whatever it is, has not spread. I reexamined the plants and found no broadmites. The idea of putting a tomato plant into the greenhouse to detect ethylene gas is a good one, but where in the world would I find a tomato plant at this time of the year. I would have to start a few.

Gordon, my microscope eyepiece is 10X and has 5X, 10X, 45 and 100X lenses. I used the 5X lens. At 50X, broadmites should be visible. The 10X lens was overkill.

Well I pl;anted tomatoe seeds the other day when they come up i can send you some.

James

That's very thoughtful of you James, but let me see if I can find some locally first.
Veronica

Thanks Veronica.. it's been a difficult bit of information to secure for me.. they only mention needing a microscope.. but don't say just what power you need.. I've been told here that I should be able to see them at 10X and I never can.. I'm going to see what I can get as a digital unit..

I just got a 40x hand held with a light for $3.49 including shipping from ebay. I bought a microscope too but I haven't got it hooked up yet. Look out bugs!

Linda

The mystery deepens. I removed the distorted leaves. Fertilized, but then we had very cold weather, well for us so I didn't go back into the greenhouse to add the systemic. I checked them today. I've noticed healthy new growth on 2 of the 3 Brugs with the distorted leaves (which I removed before fertilizing). The new leaves are not very big, but are also NOT distorted. I'll post a photo tomorrow.