Well, I learned something interesting yesterday which explains a lot about my ammonia problems, despite repeated use of ammonia blocking products and large water changes. According to The Goldfish Connection - https://www.goldfishconnection.com/articles/details.php?articleId=140&parentId=0 - salt in the water causes products like Ammo-Lock to release the bound ammonia into the water.
I had very little salt left in my pond this week after all the water changes (.05 percent after this morning's water change) so I'm not going to add any more until things are levelled out with the ammonia. I also started keeping track of when I did water changes and what percentage in my Dave's Garden blog. I can't really keep track of the ammonia readings, because the kit specifically says that readings will not be accurate with products like Ammo-Lock in the water. I'm going to do another 50% water change this afternoon and I'll just keep doing large water changes every day until I get a reading of 0. I've been adding bio-filter starter about twice a week, but most websites and books seem to say you can't rush establishment of beneficial bacteria and the bio-filter starter products are a waste of money...sigh.
Elizabeth
Interaction of ammonia reducers and salt in koi pond
I have serious doubts about the claim about a negative reaction from the use of AmmoLock in a tank with salt. It's sold for both freshwater and salt water set ups in the same formulation. I keep salt in my tropical tank and have had occaision to use AmmoLock with no problems.
http://www.petco.com/product/4066/Aquarium-Pharmaceuticals-Ammo-Lock.aspx
You are correct that there is no source of nitrosomonas bacteria other than waiting with fish in the water. Nitrosomonas bacteria does not store or ship. There isn't any thing in a bottle that speeds filter cycling. If you can get an aquarium plant from a cycled tank you can introduce both forms of bacteria pretty quickly. The bacterias commonly sold for ponds do play a sort of a positive role in digesting sludge and crowding out bad bacteria.
Shoot, snapple you shot down my hope that was the "catch all" problem with my tank, LOL!
Happy to not be a help! All you can do it what you're doing. Change the water and use the AmmoLock. But look out, when that ammonia gets eaten up by the nitrosomanas you're going to have nitrites. The nitrites will be just as toxic as the ammonia. Then the regimen will be testing, water changes and carefully maintaining the salt level with each change. Fish don't take up nitrite when there is salt in the water. Start testing for nitrite along with testing for ammonia.
I rarely used (if ever) an ammonia locking product this summer in my quaranteen tank and never had the ammonia spike IC has been experiencing and I have a much smaller tank and had way more fish and they were a lot larger. I don't actually know if that is of any help in this situation but thought I would add that in the discussion . . . I did use salt though.
I did a 90% water change yesterday - one of the last two koi was looking bad. The ammonia reading was at 4 - way too high - and I had Ammo Lock in the water but that reading was even after Saturday's 50% water change. So, I drained the whole thing (turned off the pump and filter as the water got low and had a bucket set up to put Poppy and Blade. I caught Blade right away but not Poppy. Blade died in the bucket about an hour later.
There was one more thing in the pond - those fake water lilies that have a funny stone anchor - that I thought might be leaching something into the water. So, I took those out. The koi kastle was put back in the pond. After refilling the pond yesterday, the ammonia level was still not zero, but it was close.
This morning ammonia was up to 1. I bought a new ammonia test kit on Saturday - before I just had the strips and those are hard to read. The new one seems a lot more accurate. I am still scratching my head how two fish - Poppy and the pleco - could push the ammonia level in a 270 gallon pond from .25 last night to 1 this morning. I will be very curious to see what it is this evening, considering there has been no food in it since yesterday morning (I allowed Poppy his tiny piece of food before I began draining).
When I bought the new ammonia test kit, I also bought a big jug of Amquel Plus - it claims to eradicate ammonia, nitrites, chloramines, and a million other things, it looks like it does a lot more than Ammo Lock. Here is some information on it: http://www.novalek.com/kordon/amquel+/index.htm
I don't doubt the Ammo Lock's ability to handle ammonia, but I do think I should use whatever will give me the most bang at this point! I was very careful with dosage because it said it can reduce oxygen for the first few hours after putting it in the water.
I have been measuring with 5-in-1 strips all along for nitrates, nitrites, pH and two other things - the ammonia is the only thing giving me problems.
My biological filtration was probably just getting started when I potassium permanganated the pond a week ago, so I figure it might be February before the biological filtration is up to speed.
I will keep doing my ammonia checks and partial water changes and reporting them in my blog.
I don't know what to say. This is just so darn miserable. Amquel is good. I use it whenever I add new fish to the tropical aquarium. I had ammonia readings of 4 when I first cycled my 480 gal gold fish pond. I also lost a couple of goldfish too. I made partial water changes daily, dosed per instructions with AmmoLock, and waited it out. When I cycled my tropical tank I "borrowed" some bacteria from the outside pond filter. I cycled in about 10 days rather than the 4-6wks it usually takes. Do you know anyone with an aquarium? If you could get a chunk of plant or, better yet, a used filter cartridge if they have one. Just leave it in your tank for 24 hours close to the filter intake. You will have to move it from their aquarium into your tank in quick double time, but it would be great. If their tank isn't experiencing any disease problems don't worry about getting any bad stuff. If new fish havn't been added within the last month an established tank is usually healthy.
When I go to Iowa Koi, I'm hoping I can buy a few healthy live plants to add. I don't trust any of the pet stores around here, all the fish and plants look like they might contribute more to the pond than I've bargained for.
This is miserable. Better to be having these experiences now - these experiences are really shaping my equipment decisions for the outdoor pond.
You will very likely NOT get an ammonia spike in your big outdoor pond. I started with 4 small koi in 2500 galllons. With that light a fish load there was never an ammonia reading - absolutely never, because it was so dilluted. As these guys have increased to 12 in number and hugely in size, I now can't be quite as complacent about ammonia. I still test regulary just in case. My pond readings are 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and 10ppm nitrate.
As to equipment choices, filtration/aeration capability, ease of maintainence and durability are the major factors to consider. When you design your pond keep in mind that you can avoid supplemental aeration ( bubbler or fountain head ) with a forceful churning out flow at the water fall combined with good circulation through out the pond. No dead spots. Steady trickles spilling over rocks won't aerate. It's pretty but not necessarily the best way to return filtered water into the pond. You need some churning at the surface.
Can I over-do it with ammonia reducing water conditioners? For example, if I added some not only every time I do a water change, but every morning as a precaution before I leave the house? All of them claim to be safe and non-toxic for fish.
I don't honestly know. I do know that Amquel Plus will not lock up as much ammonia as AmmoLock on a per gallon dose basis.
Looks like I'll be trying it!
Amquel Plus has a disclaimer on it that it reduces oxygen for a few hours after use. I can add a little Ammo Lock in the mornings and then use Amquel Plus when I do water changes in the evening.
As I said to my hubby, I needed a new time consuming and expensive hobby after I found new homes for my horses this year! At least I'm indoors (for the time being) with this fish!
No kidding about the time consuming and expensiveness part. My husband and I were just saying that this next summer we really want to enjoy the pond and the patio. Last summer it was a constant stress with the koi catching, the medicines spewed all over the table outdoors, the koi lab set up in the kitchen, the quaranteen tank and supplies and the rubbermaid containers. It was just messy and congested instead of serene and relaxing and breathtaking. I have to agree with that!
IC Hi and how was your Christmas? How are you fish doing? I haven't heard anything from you in a while and just wanted to check in on you and the fish.
I have only one fish left - Poppy the koi! That fish is tough. I turned off my UV filter again two days ago and am going to wait until I start getting better ammonia readings to turn it back on. It is a a strong one, 25 watts, so I think that has something to do with why it is taking so long for the beneficial bacteria to begin growing.
Hubby and I drove up to Cedar Rapids today (about half an hour) to buy a few water plants from a pet store up there. I bought a few anacharis and hornwart. (Not sure on the spelling on either of those.) They are supposed to be good oxygenators. The Cedar Rapids store had some larger koi that looked good but of course I didn't buy any. All of their smaller koi looked not so good. Next week we're going to that koi dealer/water garden store in Des Moines, I want more water plants if I can find them and better koi food. Other than that, I don't need anything. We'll check out filters and talk to the store owner about plans for the outdoor pond. The utilities companies gave us the go-ahead on location #3 so that is exciting.
So, it is just Poppy the koi and the pleco, but I don't count the pleco because I can't see him. I know he's alive in there somewhere, I usually see him when I'm doing the water change, but most of the time he is just invisible. Poppy the koi seems pretty happy, regularly foraging around. He is getting more bold and comes out from under his koi castle to investigate when I do the water changes. I've been doing water changes religiously every day except yesterday, we had to visit relatives. On Christmas I did another 90% water change and got the ammonia to zero - first time ever - then this morning I measured and it is up to 4 again. So frustrating. I added some ammo lock yesterday and this morning, just assuming the ammonia would be creeping up again. I only feed the fish every other day, I don't know how the ammonia get so high, but it does.
Elizabeth
The urine is the ammonia. Stop overserving Poppy those beers! Seriously, keep up what your doing and record on paper so that you have a record. Include information like your UV was shut off from December 25-? It might very well be the UV and I can see that you are still trying to figure out it all out. Unfortunately, when it comes to the koi it is hard to fix problems. You have to rely on yourself to figure out what is working and not working. I hope you can get it going so that this tank will be healthy. When you go to the fancy koi shop see if you can get some of their circulated pond water to jumpstart your pond. Tell him what is going on (maybe call him now so he can think about it before he sees you and can plan better to help you). Maybe he can test your water for you. I highly recommend discussing your issues because he looks and sounds (in my emails) to be running a quality program.
On a lighter note, did you get anything special for the holidays? Any pond toys? I guess a pond would be the toy. Congrats on the permit for location #3!
Nope, the only pond supplies I got for Christmas were four books. Three of them are actually on Japanese gardens, the fourth is a Nishikigoi book that I checked out from the library and really liked. I love looking at the pictures alone of the Japanese gardens, they are so calming and beautiful. One of the books is kind of tongue in cheek, though, a caption of one picture read alone the lines of "this fantastic layout is something you can never hope to achieve, the best you can do is scratch the surface, as this garden is over 300 years old." I can't believe there are gardens that old in existence!!!
My hubby and I have all sorts of jokes now about Poppy the koi, that fish has really become the material for lots of humor in our household. I think the new live plants in the water might help improve the environment, we shall see!
I'm definitely not a pen and notepad kind of gal, but I do have the blog where I'm keeping track of levels. Very good idea to add the date I turned off the UV, I didn't think of that. Thanks MM!
I was never a note maker either until the gardens got so complicated with what got fed or sprayed with what and when it was due again. In 2007 I started a garden journal just to keep track. About 2004 I started saving all the plant tags from new plants. I write on the tag the date the plant goes into the ground, punch a hole in the tag and keep them on a big key ring. So far it's worked out pretty good. But I think I'm going to put the tags in a notebook binder in plastic sheet protectors and organize them by category - conifers, JM's, perennials, bulbs and container plants that were good performers. The problem with the key ring thing is that while at least they are all in the same place for once, you have to look through the whole ring sometimes before you find what you're looking for. I do like being able to look at a picture of the plant and seeing that it is three years old or four or whatever. When we put in the pond I tore out a 20 x 40 perennial garden and have nearly completely redone the entire backyard. I saved only some rhododendrons, azaleas, a Cornus kousa, Cornus florida, two Frasier firs and a pair of 28 year old hemlocks. I added new beds and plants so fast that I couldn't keep track. To save money I started mostly with some really small stuff and a few big purchases here and there. It's just now starting to fill in. Without my key ring I would be clueless about some of the plants. And oh yeah, I save the tags of the deceased plants too. I lost my share and most, but not all, were JM's.
Uh, but back to my original point, keeping a journal for me is the only way I can keep track. I've been gardening since 1980, journal keeping since about 2007. Slow learner.
I love the tool features here on Dave's Garden - I have blogs to keep track of all my conifers and my hosta collection (sounds similar to what you do, snapple, with the binders - I track year purchased/planted in the ground as well as how old the plant was when I planted it), and I use it also for tracking what interesting water garden products I might want for my pond, what I need the first year, what can wait another year, etc. I have blogs for everything, and some of them are locked (meaning only I can access them), so I can keep track of prices, etc.
So, I do keep track of everything with the water quality in my little pond, too, but it is just electronic, rather than on paper! I really love doing that, I've even taken to saving all my favorite links on Dave's Garden, that way I can access things from any computer and any location. Really handy now that we have three computers at home (my father in law bought hubby and I each new laptops, these really neat MSI wind notebooks that weigh only two pounds - mine is pink!) and I have one at work.
That IS an impressive array of electronic organization. Part of the reason I save the tags are the plant images ( the ones that have them). Of course, a great many of the tags don't have images. But the ones that do are nice. One of my goals for next season, now that the new beds are largely finished, is to label the plants themselves. I'm having trouble settling on what style label/marker I want to use. The botanical garden where I volunteer has a system, but I don't care for it much. The type is small and difficult to read. It becomes illegible when it's dirt covered. Some things are plainly labled for visitors to read but others are obscured at the base of the plant. It encourages visitors to trample all over stuff to get close enough to figure out what shrub or plant they're looking at. I did lable a few things a couple of years back. Squirrells pulled the stakes up! It was especially bad over the winter. By spring labels were scattered far from their original locations. I hate those rotten rodents.
I hate the squirrels too, so much so that I looked into trapping and...eradicating...them. Turns out that it is 100% legal, but I can't do trap within city limits. If I lived 2 miles from where I am now...sigh...
I have the metal stakes that have two parts that go into the ground. I have a label maker with software that I downloaded on my computer (the desktop, not the new laptop) and can make all kinds of different labels. It is a great system. The squirrels cannot get the stakes up, try as they might. However, the mailman is another problem altogether and has been trampling my hosta beds and kicking around stakes to the point that hubby had to write a letter to the postmaster. The postal guy sees it as a "shortcut" - I see it as just plain rude. This problem will be gone when we put in the pond fencing - honestly I'm just thinking of putting a cheap temporary fence there in the meantime, but it will need to wait until the ground thaws enough for me to get stakes in the ground.
I can't think of a good system to keep people from walking too close to one plant to look at the labels, though, short of huge obtrusive signs.
Elizabeth
An option for marking would be smooth medium sized stones. You could write the plant name on those with a permanent paint and they would be large enough to see easily without being intrusive.
As far as the postal guy goes, just stick small pieces of rebar straight up in the beds so that only a couple of inches stick out at fairly close intervals. Even with the ground as hard as it it you may be able to get them in there with a hammer. They will not be that evident until the guy tries to step on them. He will get the message and then you can use a stout pair of pliers to take them out again.
That postal guy would be a dead man at my house. I would send my dogs out to greet him for doing that. Lucky for us the postboxes are down at the street level. UPS, DHL and Fed Ex are the only ones that walk all the way to the door. They are very respectful - I guess I am lucky for that-I take them for granted!
Tetley, I fear your suggestion might be a federal offense : )
I once placed a 1/2 block of cement well up in my front yard just before a predicted heavy snow. We got the snow. I "got" the idiot neighbor who thought it was OK to use my front yard as part of his snowmobile track, even if there was only 2" of snow. I wasn't home to see it happen. I could see the mess in the front yard where he hit the block. The snowmobile didn't get too far past the block. Then there were lots of foot tracks. It looked as though the machine had to be pushed off into the street. Never had any trouble with the lawn getting torn up after that by a snowmobile.
In Wisconsin, which is just a short trip over the boarder from Illinois and the Chicago population, the drinking age was 18 whereas in Illinois it was 21 in the 1970-1980's (it may still be but I have no clues). As you would guess, carloads of Illinois teenagers and otherwise underage drinkers would go up there to drink all night on Fridays and Saturdays. Some would go to snowmobile populated areas like Lake Geneva and the Chain of Lakes. A lot of deaths occurred with angry property owners stringing up wire across their property and beheading sledders as well as drunken sledders hitting something and the passenger falling off and the driver being so drunk they left them behind and well, without the horrible details, death occurred. Bodies would be found in the Springtime when lakes thawed, and "large snow banks melted". My parents owned a home up on one of those lakes and the stories were so tragic!
We don't lose too many here. Once in a while one of them will hit a railroad track and get hurt. My lot is 70 x 140 in a suburban neighborhood. No place for a snowmobile. Just being on the road they are operating illegally. There are no fields or open places, just a well developed resdential neighborhood.
Snapple, I can't believe your lot is not bigger. From the pictures you've posted (love those winter interest pics) I would have guessed you had at least an acre!
My lot is not much bigger than yours - we get snowmobilers every once in a blue moon but they usually stick to the streets, I have not had one up on my front yard.
If only I had an acre! It's the "Cram it in wherever you can" school of garden design and I'm flat out of cramming room. New JM purchases will be for containers. I do have some back lawn left, but it is suitable for full shade only, as it is under high oaks and bordered on the south by old hemlocks. Thanks for the compliments ic. My DH and I are considering having no back lawn at all, putting everything into woodland shade plants and stone paths and a statue or two. He likes some lawn and I'm not sure I can keep that much up. So we dither.
So, what you meant to say was "I don't want a lawn and almost have hubby convinced." I hate lawn, we have just the tiniest bit in the front of the house and on the west side, it is really just two narrow strips that I use for paths.
There used to be a decent sized area fenced in the back that was lawn-ish, the last owner seeded it but the area was really too shaded to support lawn and then our dogs destroyed most of what did manage to grow. I want to eventually go the hardscape route for that, but hubby is afraid the rocks would be too hard for the dogs paws. It is kind of just dirt now. One of the corgis recently (last week) dug up a blueberry bush of hubby's that he planted back there so maybe the dogs' emotions won't rank so high anymore : )
One of the hosta threads turned into a ponding thread - I still think you need more hostas, LOL!
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/934460/#new
Actually ic, the woodland garden is kinda slowly creeping into the lawn area. Each summer when I "refresh" the edges I advance it by about a foot, more in the years when the hostas need dividing. I love hostas, but virus X has me reluctant to add to my teensy weensy collection. At a recent Master Gardener's monthly meeting it was a topic of discussion. It's hit some collector's/hybridizers around here and these are the people who are supposed to truly know their stuff. I'm going to add one no matter what - Empress Wu. I've an area that's currently filled with duplicates of what I already have. I'll have to mail order so I'll be checking the Garden Watchdog for who's good. Ponding is, in some ways, a different kind of gardening. If you have 6 hrs of sunlight on the water you can have a lily or two. There's something about a water lily and a pond that just looks so right, plus the koi love to hang around under the leaves.
You sure you don't want to wait until 2010? Someone on the hosta board recently posted that "Blue Wu" is coming out in 2010. Same size, everything as Empress Wu except blue! I think the biggest problem with HVX (and I am terrified of that virus) is that it can stay dormant for years in some plants. I know not every hybridizer and seller tests every plant they sell.
I will not have one full hour of daylight in the pond in the location we picked, just dapped sun all day long. I think that a few water lettuce will do okay but not water lilies. I will probably put in a few floating planters for the fish to hide under.
I have a spot in my "conifer garden" area in front of the house that has a huge echinanea patch. Originally, that whole area was overgrown and I "reclaimed it" after we bought the house in early 2007. There was one echinacea struggling in the shade and I thought "How cute, I'll leave it alone." This past summer, now that the area is in full sun, I swear there were fifty plants! I need to rehome them or something. The location of the echinacea patch would be perfect for a small water garden. About ten feet long and five or six feet wide. I already thought about how I could set up dividers and have a few heights going on so I can put in soil and then a lotus in one part and two waterlilies in the other. Eventually I could have a little bridge going over it, maybe a Japanese lantern off to one side : )
Ahh, Snapple-did I influence you with my Empress Wu purchase of last year? Pictures can be difficult to resist here. I am doing the canna co-op and in the discussion thread everyone there is posting canna pictures and now I want to add more cannas to an already large order. It is difficult to resist!
IC: Empress Wu takes a few years to grow some size and if your impatient Like me) it's hard to resist starting out the plant. My Wu was such a big piece that I was able to divide it into two upon delivery. Both pieces are doing well for me. I look forward to getting a Blue Wu as well . . .lol!
I am extremely excited about 'Justice', which is the streaked form of 'Victory.' I bought one at the end of last season, it is just a wee thing now, but it will be a monster when it is grown and has that great vase shape. It will definitely enjoy a prominent spot near the koi pond!!!
First of all, ic, I've seen few on here as badly bitten by the ponding bug as you, and you havn't even put a shovel in the ground yet! This is going to be fun, fun, fun to watch. Now both of you, mm & ic, stop already! Please! So many good hostas, so little garden space! The complaint is one of overabundance of goodness however. At least I know I'm cramming in the really, really good ones, thanks your ( plural) experienced advice.
Watch out for that ponding bug! Once it strikes, there's no getting rid of it!
I've tried to convince my hubbie for years to accept the concept of a grassless back yard. Lot's of entertaining areas, lot's of lush plants and ponds...just no grass. He's not buying in to it just yet.
I'm lucky, hubby was the one who originally told me, when I moved out here, the lack of merits of grass!
IC - where did you hear about the Blue Wu-here at Daves? I feel like I am missing the hosta information line . . . Are you into hostas a lot? Recently on one of your posts you stated your age to be late twenties. I am always surprised when someone here posts their age. I somehow get a image of what people would look like based on the information in their posts.
Snapple: Nah-nah! I have a wee bit more than an acre . . .
Arrrgh. I'd kill for more space.
I was raised on 100 acres in Ohio....and somehow ended up on a postage stamp sized subdivision yard......ahhhhh, the longing.....sigh,lol....