I had two deicers in my pond and one already failed and I replaced it with a stock tank heater and now more than half the pond is melted. Before only a small area was melted away like 1/8 and now it is melted about 1/3. Is this going to cost me a lot in energy bills? How much is melted in your ponds with your deicers?
How much ice should be melted in the pond with a deicer?
My ponds stay 95% ice free through all but the worst of the winter. 2500 gallons, 30 x 35 (or so) surface area with limited wind exposure. The heater is a 1500 API stock tank/pond deicer. The water freezes to within about a foot of the heater when the weather goes to 0 or below. It adds roughly $65 mo to the bill, a fact my DH reminds me of periodically. You don't need that much open water or the added expense. It's my personal preference. Cold water holds more oxygen if there is the ability for gas exchange at the surface. The more liquid surface the more oyxgen in the water. Even though the koi aren't respirating at a high rate they do need oxygen and are susceptible to any gasses from decomposing organics in the pond.
But again, You dont need anything but a modest hole for gas exchange. You could run supplemental air with the deicer. A lot of ponders do. Supplemental air disturbs the water layers dragging down cold water and pushing up warmer water. I prefer to keep the warmest water at the bottom where the koi are resting. The 1500 API keeps the pond temp around 40 all winter except for the 0 or below periods. The lowest temp ever has been a little over 38 and it took at least two weeks of horrid cold to get it there.
My pond is between 1/2 melted and 1/3 melted - a few days ago it was 15 degrees and there was a lot of open water. My fish appear to be fine. I see them at the bottom. They move a little. The ice is thick where it has already formed. It is more than an inch thick. I feel a little more at ease with more open space on top of the pond though.
I use a stock tank heater also. The amount of open water varies with the weather.
Right now its 20 degrees out and the pond is open by the falls. The ice is very thin.
Boy, your ice freezes clear. It's pretty. When mine freezes over it's just a solid grey white. You can't see a thing.
My pond is all but completely frozen over about 1" thick, but the deicer is keeping the hole nicely open .... the edges of the pond (about 1/2") is also not frozen to the edge of the stones, liner, etc.
There was one slight glitch with the heavy snow sinking the deicer below the surface, so the pond froze solid over the top completely. The next morning I went out with the ice chopper and carefully and gently took ice away around the deicer. Since then, it has floated perfectly. I saw the fish moving around under the ice then, but today I cannot see under the ice, as it is milky white.
I just came in, so the next time I check, I will take a photo to show you what I mean.
In the mean time .... check this out!! It's how my backyard looks right now. If only I could expand the pond like this! We just had a deep cold snap (20ºF), followed by a warm spell (47ºF) of a day and a half of rain, and now snow again. There is no where for the water to go at the moment.
This message was edited Dec 10, 2008 2:11 PM
Snapple your ice is probably thick. Yesterday there wasn't any ice on mine. And I have to agree with you on what it cost to run the heater. 65 $ sounds about right.
I bought a pond deicer online and when it got to me I installed it and never worked. Had to return it and now my li'l pond is frozen over with a little hole we managed to make. But I'm worried bucause time is passing and my lil' pond is only 2 feet deep. I am still waiting for the company to send me a repalcement. My goldfish however are still alive, so I think a lilttle hole is all they need.
Crazybrugs-Nice to hear from you. I still talk about all those great plants you gave me to my friends. What generosity! Your pond picture looked great-hardly any ice compared to mine and your farther north . . .
Willie: I love your picture. I would be so tempted to rent a baackhoe in the spring and "create" that exact look for a stream/pond. It looks so natural (probably because it is!!!!) Refresh my memory-how big is your pond underneath all that water?
dulcigarden - Don't you just hate that when things don't work right out of the box and you have to wait for a replacement? There is nothing more aggravating. Your goldfish will be fine. If your pond bottom is fairly clean and if your hole freezes over briefly, like for instance overnight, you should still be allright. Any bad gasses from fish respiration and decomposing organics takes time to build up. It doesn't happen overnight. I've had a deicer go down overnight and awakend to a pond frozen solid. I got right on it and there was no problem. No fun! But no problem either.
WNY - You'll do anything to enlarge that pond won't you!
MM - Does your ever husband look at the electric meter whirling away and then give you a look?
You got that right, Snap!! Even take credit for nature's contribution as my own!! But, just jokingly .... would NEVER want to anger momma nature!
At the moment, the pond is only a "measly" 1,000 gallons, 2 foot deep for the most part. You can see it surrounded by stone, going off to the left almost out of the picture. The end you can barely see is that 4 x 4 landscape timber you can just make out through the shrubs.
The idea is to snake the pond via another stream out off to the right just about where the picture ends and then have it meander up toward to house to a second pond just outside the door to the greenhouse ...... IF I ever get that much time .... the ambition is there.
It makes me dizzy to watch the meter spin so fast, so I try to avoid staring at it, when I do, I get a BIG pain in my back pocket. Strangest of things, you know ......
I don't think my husband would think about the energy costs. One thing in my favor is that I had half the house's windows and door replaced and that will help with the energy costs. Our bills were astronomical last winter and the summer prior to the replacement. I noticed a 40 % savings in air conditioning last summer so I am thinking we will have a lot of savings in heating and the pond thingy will be offset by that. Anyways, that's my plan. . . fingers crossed. My husband already realised this summer that the pond is a money pit with all the medicine and the "EXTRA" equipment needed for them to survive like the microscope and upgraded lighting (oh, I forgot that was for me . . .) LOL!
Or boarding a sick koi for the winter at a koi spa..........................Now who does that?
We did our windows and doors sometime back. It's an excellent investment. With the money you'll save you can plot an addition like WNY's and meander that pond all over the place.
My lighting is not good and needs to be reworked completely. Next year. It's always something next year.
(BTW for those who picked up on my whining about the business theft, the employee confessed today to the whole thing. It's a little uglier than I had fully uncovered, but we'll still be OK.)
It was ic who said she couldn't wait to say goodbye to 2008. DITTO that!
How much uglier-money wise or customer wise or something completely different?
Uglier $$$$ wise.
Ouch-sorry to hear that. Are you prosecuting?
You betcha!
The benefit (possibly the only benefit) of an intentional crime like embezzlement is that any restitution ordered cannot be discharged in a bankruptcy...so you can hound them for the rest of their lives.
Thank you, ic. This employee has a large tax refund coming. If I'm lucky I may get something soon. The criminal has retained an attorney who has asked us for some "time" so that the employee can make restitution before the preliminary hearing. I'm not holding my breath however.
Can you put a lien on their property for this? If so do it asap in case there is a long line . . . (of liens).
You would probably need a judgment first, in this kind of case, though the rules for liens vary widely from state to state.
I'll do whatever it takes, however long it takes. Time is on my side. I've liened and garnished for bad business debts. Lots of paper shuffling and court fees. I've been chasing one woman who defaulted since 1998! Yo do what you have to do. I find out where she's working, garnish her wages, then she quits and I have to try to find her again. You have to remember to renew the judgement periodically too. Stubborn is my other user name.
THATS! what I like best about ya, snapple!!
I think "stubborn" is a compliment. :)
Sadly, no one will watch out for you, but y-o-u!
Here is a shot of my cheap pond deicer, which has been working perfectly so far.
Here is a closer shot showing the melt zone better.
And, here we are farther away showing what the neighbors see.
And here is a shot of a $$$$ electricity hog deicer. Pond temp 42.2 Air temp last night 18, today 30 - Ice cover about 6" at the shallow end pond edge. 98% ice free. The deicer is tethered to the opposite side of the pond. If I don't do that the wind pushes it right over to the edge and I like it best over the deepest part of the pond.
We have been using a floating pond heater for years. We used it on our small birdbath pond and it kept the pond completely free of ice although some time snow would pile up on it. Last year it stopped floating but it was still usable but this year it was really heating up the pond much warmer than it should have been so we replaced it with a new one. This is different than the last and says it uses less power. It uses only 100 watts and is for ponds 300-1000 gallons It only maintains a hole in the ice a little bigger than the heater. Right now everything out side is frozen but our small pond and it is completely ice free. I guess we will see how well it works for us.
WillieB, Mine looks much like yours, maybe the same one.
This message was edited Dec 13, 2008 4:58 PM
Okay, okay, my husband noticed the huge electrical spike in $$$. What was I thinking gas bills offsetting electric bills? My de-icer is a $ hog too! I unplugged it today to save a few pennies (it's warm).
BTW: Snapple, those aren't koi under that deicer but large hairless dogs with fins! They are huge! How old are your fish????
I'm seriously considering an in-line electric heater for the outdoor pond, to keep the temperatures even. I would let the water get to around 45 degrees for January and February but keep it 70-75 the rest of winter. My "Koi for Dummies" book has me paranoid (again).
The big koi are 5 yrs old. Most of the small ones are two years old. Yes, they are big. The Cooperative Extension agent made a house call last summer to take lab samples of a Larix decidua 'Pendula' with a pest problem (Larch case bearer) and to guage gypsy moth damage on the oaks. She had to walk behind the pond to get to the Larix. Her reaction to the size of the koi was astonishment. She said they were the biggest koi she had ever seen. I was/am surprised by that. My reading tells me that Koi can get over 36" under good conditions in time, say 10yrs. So the 2' to 2'1/2 footers seem about right to me. In reading Dr. Johnson' s "Koi Health and Diseases" koi like a strong current and get larger if they have one. These koi do have a good current to swim in. Maybe it's koi aerobics? LOL I will say this, it's mostly just doing what the books' say. Good water, high quality food, scrupulous maintenance, yada, yada, yada. No magic involved.
ic - if you want to keep your water 70-75 during cold weather plan your filtration to be easy to maintain in frigid temperatures, because the filters and pump will have to be run and maintained full time. You'll need a hose and running water. Also plan all air exposed plumbing such that it won't freeze. The koi will be eating and excreeting in abundance. They may spawn early too. If you think there is a chance of a power outage consider a backup generator. A sudden plunge in temperatures plus frozen pumps and plumbing could be injurious to the koi, not to mention your wallet. Also some of the heaters ( not all) capable of maintaining those temperatures under those conditions require 220v at the outlet, which may mean a new fuse box and new wiring. Ordinary household current isn't sufficient.
Can you tell I'm not enamored with the idea? LOL These are just some things to think about. Cleaning a filter when it's snowing or 20 degrees real quick so that nothing freezes doesn't appeal to me!
Power outages are not uncommon in my neighborhood, especially during ice storms (we had 3 last winter). Most of the time we only lose power for an hour.
We've been thinking about buying a generator because last winter we lost power for almost 30 hours and it was COLD - it almost got so bad that we were thinking about putting the parrots in my truck to keep them warm. The house got down to about 45 degrees. We were literally pulling crates out of the basement when the electricity finally came back on! The new fuse box and wiring...that is a whole other story. That was not something I considered.
I know, the outdoor heater would probably be a big pain in the rear. I suppose I won't really need to worry about it until next fall.
Wow, Snapple had the heated pond topic covered. Sounds like she considered this as an option for her fish. That is a lot of work-what is the estimated $ for heating a pond all winter? Another option is putting a hooped green house over the pond for the winter. I have seen this on a few sites. If your interested I can dig a little and try to find more information on that this week. It will take a little time.
BTW: Snapple, how often do you take your filters out at the top of the waterfall and hose them down? I found that job to be exhausting (they are so heavy and big).
A hooped house is the better idea in many circumstances. Wish I could manage that, but the rock work all round the pond doesn't permit it. Poor planning on my part. ic - Not all pond heaters need 220v at the outlet, but the most effective ones do need a lot of juice to keeep up in cold weather.
About cleaning pond filters MM. If your mats are your biological filtration cleaning them frequently with tap water could reduce the good bacteria needed for processing ammonia and nitrite. The down side to not cleaning them regularly is that solids and sludge provide a good growing medium for bad bacteria and especially for parasites. In this case I would suggest rotation cleaning - 1/2 of your mats at a time. Then you've always got a mat with good bacteria to populate the just cleaned mat.
My mats are mechanical filtration, filtering out particulates. They seldom go over 4 days, usually 3, without cleaning. They are easy to clean. I just lay them in a utility wagon that is made like a giant milk crate on wheels. The gunk just hoses off and runs through to the ground. It's a snap.
The bioligical filtration is a mass of plastic coils that sits in a tub through which the pond water is pumped. Weekly I drain the sludge and solids off the bottom of the tub through a bottom drain. No big deal.
Cleaning collected sludge that clings to the mass of coiled plastic is a bit more of a job. First, I don't do it until after the first of July so as not to knock out the bacteria. Then I only do it monthly. I plop it in my milk crate cart and hose it off. By July a large enough population of good bacteria has built up in the pond such that the biological filter doesn't miss a beat even with a vigorous hosing with tap water with chlorine. But boy, is it a messy job. The plastic coil stuff fills a wheelbarrow and I often wind up with algae and gunk in my hair. It's a whole lot of messy.
When I harp about maintenance, maintenance, maintenance I'm talking about sludge, solids and debris. That's pure fuel for diseases and parasites. You want to find where exactly in your particular system this stuff builds up. Then devise a method for removing it and do it often. Toss in a few water partial changes along the way and that's optimizing your water quality.
This message was edited Dec 15, 2008 9:29 PM
So your mechanical system is through your bottom drain? I wish I had one even more now! My only filtration is the top of my water falls. I cleaned all the mats at least once this summer but only one or two at a time as it exhausted me to lift them up and out. I vacuumed the waterfall this fall to get some of the gunk out but I know that there is a big job ahead of me this spring. I think about paying someone else to do it but feel only I know what is best for my pond and would worry that something would be done incorrectly.
Are there any other alternatives for additional filtration in my pond? On my Japanese Koi dealers site he had some interesting items that I considered for more filtration. What do you think of the following equipment?
http://koipondjapan.com/products/watercleaner/index.html
MM, I remember seeing that when I looked at your dealer's website. It looks really tiny, though, that it might not have much of an impact for a heavy fish load. Your pond is about 3,000 gallons, right? How about a Laguna ClearFlo 3200 filter and pump combo? I like my 1400 for my quarantine pond - it is so easy to use. It is also not very expensive, the pump and filter combo with a 25 watt UV bulb is under $500. The filter and pump each also have 3 year warranties. Here is a link to the place where I purchased mine:
http://www.azponds.com/filters.htm
I think I'm going to go the bottom drain route for my new pond, the size pond I want will need two bottom drains. That will keep the pond so much cleaner than anything else, although it will mean more work and $$$ up front. I read all about sloping the bottom in my "Koi for Dummies" book last night! I still have not figured out what people do with their bottom drain in winter to seal off water from going into the pipes when the filter/pump/uv are disconnected and stored inside.
Here is a really cool link, wouldn't you love to have this INDOOR koi pond:
http://www.nykoi.com/pond_details.asp?ID=73
I love the stepping stones and waterfall in that one - it appears there is a room hidden behind the waterfall with the pond heater, filters, etc. I imagine that particular structure and pond are a six digit project!
The filter tub has a bottom drain. :>) The filter tub is the top of the waterfall. Most of the sludge is collected in the top waterfall filter tub. The pond itself doesn't have a bottom drain. :>( I can clear the sludge out of the filter tub just by turning a valve. I still have to use a vacuum to get sludge off the pond bottom. My skimmer is extremely easy to clean. I clean it almost daily. It's purely mechanical filtration and prefilters the water before it gets pumped up to the waterfall filter.
I'm not sure I understand the Seiryu. The pump sits on the bottom and pulls water up through a filter and out the top? How do you clean it? Would the outflow cause so much of a rippling effect that you'd have trouble seeing the fish? What's the brand name and size of the system you already have? Do you have picture you can post of what you already have?
If your only filtration is a box or tub at the top of the waterfall I'd think about fitting in a skimmer on the opposite side of the pond from the waterfall. Pull in water through the skimmer and pump it up to the waterfall.
Please don't turn your pump on next spring until you remove all the sludge. Every bit of it every where. It's gonna to stink to high heaven too. Parasites flourish in that stuff. Populations easily build in cold water. If you don't get it out you'll just push it into circulation when the koi are defenseless. That stinky stuff can be a killer. Everybody gets it in their pond. I hope you have a picture you can post of your current equipment.
ic - Here's an illustration of a Savio skimmer pulling water up from a bottm drain. http://www.aquaart.com/SavioSkimmer.html
That is different from what I understood to be a bottom drain. When I think bottom drain, I think of something like this: http://www.koipondcentral.com/accessories/bottom_drains.html
The aerated bottom drains look really neat.
Bottom drain installation is very confusing to me. Here is the best illustration I've seen except that it goes to the main filter. It would work in efficiency and in the same plumbing method, judging from the illustration, if plumbed to a skimmer I'm a huge fan of skimmers.
http://www.koiclay.com/diy/pg4.htm
This message was edited Dec 16, 2008 6:06 PM
This message was edited Dec 16, 2008 6:06 PM
Snapple: I cut and pasted your post so I could answer it.
If your only filtration is a box or tub at the top of the waterfall I'd think about fitting in a skimmer on the opposite side of the pond from the waterfall. Pull in water through the skimmer and pump it up to the waterfall. *****(I have a skimmer with a basket that I also put in a small filter to get the smaller stuff-I have to kill it 1-2 times per day depending on if it is windy and stuff blows into the pond, if I worked in the stream with the plants and so on).
Please don't turn your pump on next spring until you remove all the sludge. Every bit of it every where. It's gonna to stink to high heaven too. Parasites flourish in that stuff. Populations easily build in cold water. If you don't get it out you'll just push it into circulation when the koi are defenseless. That stinky stuff can be a killer. Everybody gets it in their pond. I hope you have a picture you can post of your current equipment.
***(I can post my equipment online here-I'll get some pictures this week and try to detail it out for you-is my equipment giving you an answers to some of my health problems from the summer?)