I have spent days reading past threads and trying to learn all that I can. I feel I have not yet even scratched the surface. These are magnificent plants and I want as much success as possible. I live in my yard 9 months out of the year and spend the remaining months planning and working towards next year.
When someone creates a brug hybrid, they have the right to name the new plant. I get that. They worked hard for it. Is there anything official about the name they have given it and is there a way they make it official or does it matter to a buyer or to anyone? If it does not matter then why are there noids and why did someone not give them a name? I have searched for answers and I am sorry to bring it up because I am sure that it must be covered somewhere in the mass of threads. You all do a fantastic job of covering everything so well.
So where do names come from for new crosses, how important are they, and why are there noids?
What's in a name? seriously
great questions, kathy, I can't wait to see the answers! Debra
The hybridizer names the new cross since it is their plant. Noids come from many sources. I have one right now, it is beautiful but the tag was lost, I do not know what it is for sure, so it is now a noid. There are many that people shared not knowing the name, or as in my case a lost tag. Any brug that has no registered name, or the name is unknown is a noid. Once seeds are grown and the breeder is satisfied that it is a reliable plant that produces flowers good enough to keep it is given a name, registered and released.
I hope this helps you.
So, is the name real or pretend (for lack of a better word) if it is not registered?
I mean if you cross a couple of plants and you grow the seeds and you decide it is something new and special, is the name that you give it going to stay with it and be passed from person to person if they do not lose the tag even if you do not register it and does it matter to anyone whether you register it?
This message was edited Nov 15, 2008 12:23 AM
Great answer, thanks .. now I know why I have a new noid, I lost the tag!
This message was edited Nov 15, 2008 12:21 AM
There can be a certain level of snobbery with dog owners. Two people can own a dog of the same breed one has papers and the other doesn't therefore the unpapered dog is a mutt to many. Does this type of snobbery exist with brug growers? Do brug growers more cherish characteristics or names?
To prevent all (4) of my brugs from becoming noids, how do you all keep them tagged once they are outdoors and subject to wind rain and animals? It seems so cruel for something to have its name taken away from it due to my human failings. They are not as easy to tell apart as a collie and chuhuahua.
kathy,
In your second post you asked if the name was real or pretend if it was not registered. In my opinion it is confusing. As long as the Brug, and the name you give that new plant stays with you, then you can call it whatever you wish. Once you share cuttings/plants and the name goes with it, you add to the confusion of names. Recently, a seller on e-Bay was offering a double peach he had named Rhapsody. That name already belongs to a single dark pink Brug. Can you see how this would lead to confusion?
I don't have intimate knowledge of the procedure followed when registering a Brugmansia, but am familiar with the registration procedure for dogs and Angus cattle. I imagine as with any avocation the object being registered must meet or comply with certain standards. Owning a registered or pedigreed animal means it is more likely to exhibit certain characteristics and traits. It's probably the same with Brugs. There is a lot of work, time and effort involved in developing something good enough to register. Most Brugs end up in the compost pile while many calves end up at the auction barn. The dog was our children's pet and nothing more.
If snobs exist, it is not the breeders and I have yet to encounter a snobbish grower here at this forum. May I ask why you used the term "snobbery"? Not everyone agrees on all aspect of growing Brugs, but given the different climates and other growing conditions this is expected. Nothing shuts down a conversation faster than confrontational language.
A noid is not necessarily an inferior plant. Like theraglady, I have a number of named Brug that are now noids. Some are now noids because the label faded. One, a really nice pink single was sold to me as something else by a disreputable seller on e-Bay. The others are the result of an overturned greenhouse bench. I've tried labeling my Brugs with a Sharpie, a laundry marker, and pencil. They all fade, some sooner than others. I now use metal stakes and aluminum Dynamo labels.
I don't think a "named" brug ...that is a registered Brugmansia, is ever really a Noid ...it still remains what it is ...most of the experts here would probably id a named one posted here for you, if you have forgotten what the name was.If you can't id it it is better to call it a noid than perhaps guess the wrong name. A noid is one that is not registered, it can be confusing I know. Some folk call theirs a name but unless it is registered it is still a noid since the id comes from being registered. If you want to give it a pet name ie kathy's pink. Then it would be nice to call it kathy's pink noid ...until registered or keep that as a pet name.
Each time a little seed germinates it is a new creation, even if it looks exactly like another ...there are always differences.If you hatch one that you think is very special you can apply to have it registered.
This is the way I understand things ...I may be incorrect, please let us know if I am misunderstanding this.
the named brugs I have recieved from DG'ers, have been tagged with yellow, green and pink large wide Zip tags, and some have been marked with inserted id tags that I have managed to keep intact.. now I keep a coloured set of markers and "dot" the brugs that are named with colours, and write them down in a book with the id corresponding to that colour and remark as neccessary..my first brug was bought on ebay as a name, but was id' here when I posted the final blooms as a different name. I am just a novice herre, and have been welcomed and helped by everyone, and no one has been "snobbish" to me. These brug lovers are here to help us newbies! welcome to the Brugmansia Forum, Kathy!
Debra
Another way tgo mark your Brugs so you cannot lose the label is to write the name on the trunk with a reliable no fade marker.
Also I learned that you must have your plant bloom at least three years before it can be registered to make sure it continues to give the true flower.
Doris
as all the seedlings i have grown so far ended on the compost, i haven't even gotten halfway close to registereing anything.
the part i am confused about is (should i ever be so fortunate to have something interesting) who gets to name the plant. is it the person who hybridized the seeds or the person who planted and grew the seeds?
i had way too many seeds this year, so i sent them off to some others to grow. i also received some seeds from others (i am keeping careful records).
part of what helps me keep track of my plants (in addition to labeling) is to keep an up to date and accurate diary with plant locations and pictures/drawings, both on the computer and also in a old-fashioned notebook. I have also restricted where my garden helpers are helping after they collected up all my daylily and iris tags 5 years ago - before i started keeping a meticulous diary - and turned my plants into NOIDS.
The answer your question GreenThumbsTN is it depends. If you bought your seeds via an auction say, then the Hybridizer relinquishes his rights to the naming of the plant. It is always considered a courtesy that the seed parent however retain the hybridizer name on the brug when registering a suitable candidate. If you got your seed thru an organization (whether purchased or given for postage), those seeds are donated to the organizations by hybridizers with the stipulation that the hybridizer retain the rights to that brug. That does not mean that the seedling parent can't name the brug, what it means is that the seedling parent and the hybridizer must agree upon a name before it can be properly registered.
These same set of rules go for any seeds that are freely given or won in a contest. Hybridizer retains rights.
You may also have a situation where you have grown out a cross that you may want to name and register but the hybridizer does not feel that it is worthy. Unless you purchased those seeds outright in an auction where the hybridizer has relinqished his rights to those seeds, you cannot register that brug against the hybridizers wishes.
This message was edited Nov 15, 2008 10:21 AM
GreenThumbsTN,
Naming new hybrids works one of two ways.The current custom,with brugs,is that if the seed were a gift,or came from one of the organization seedbanks,
the hybridizer retains naming rights.If the seed were purchased then the rights go to the grower.
That said,my on preference has changed over the years.I have contributed literally thousands of seed to the seedbank over the past years.I no longer want the aggravation or extra work of keeping up with who has what and what went where.Now,when they leave my hand,I want nothing more to do with them.I feel so strongly about this that I sent exactly 0 seed to the bank this year.
The term NOID is not meant as a put down.It simply means what is says...No identification.It is just a convenience as we buy,sell and trade plants.
I see that Gary and I were typing at the same time.
yes, i can understand the aggravation of trying to keep up with seeds one has given away (be it for trade, postage, or just free to have them 'gone').
i see some plants with names on different websites and sometimes flowers look malformed to me or look like stuff i throw in the compost. occasionally, i try to look for the names in the registry, but (and this may be because of my limited abilities) can't find those names registered properly.
how does one go about looking up a name and be reasonably sure one has looked thoroughly?
The reason I used the word snobery is because that is what I have seen in the dog arena. I have not witnessed such a thing in the forums here.
You have all done an awesome job explaining the name game. Thanks so much. I promise my brugs will have names but probably not the name on their label. They will undoubtably have pet names. I have been known to talk to a plant or two and it is much nicer if you call them by a friendly name LOL. We had 50 chickens and they all had names. A brug is much prettier than a chicken so they will have names even if unofficial.
3 years of blooms before a name. That is awesome and real dedication.
The dog arena isn't much different than the brug arena. Yes, there is "snobery" in the dog arena when a person pays more for a dog that can be AKC registered -- it's a pride thing, I suppose.
My daughter has named all of our brugs -- for personal fun and connection, if you will. However, when making cuttings of these nicknamed brugs, and giving them to people, they go to peope as NOID's so as not to confuse people. Also, if it's a NOID, you don't know the real "pedigree" of the plant, do you? Sort of like in the dog arena. It's best to call it a "mutt" if you don't know the true pedigree, right? Same thing with brugs. If you don't know the true cultivar and you trade your cuttings with others, just keep it as a NOID with others, but call it what you want at home.
I can forgive a lot of snobbery from someone who has spent years creating a special characteristic in a brug. This would stem from real pride. I have never been very tolerant of snobery rooted in money. That is just me. I have seen folks who seemed to actually swell with their pride in their roses. They had a right to. I know the work that goes into them. I have never seen a brug in real life. I am so much looking forward to my first full grown plant. Maybe I will feel a little snobery having the first one on the block? LOL
Yeah, there is a lot of hard work that goes into hybridizing a quality brug. Literally years, not to mention the effort, money, etc. And to have to sit patiently through several blooming years, and then sending cuttings across the country for others to trial to see how that plant fares in different temperatures, humidity, etc., just to see if that one plant is worthy of being officially named takes so much patience!
Being the first one one the block with a brug is fun -- really! And being able to enable your neighbors is even better. ;)
Yes, I want to share the joy of ownership. I have no plants that I have not shared and brugs will not be the exception. I almost cry when I cut back shrubs because I know with some each of the branches on the burn pile could have been another bush. I have to share with anyone who wants them.
What a great thread and thanks for asking this question and a very big thanks to those who took the time and trouble to answer, only one thing I don't understand, Indiana lily asks if a Brugmansia is a noid if you don't know the parents ...I am pretty sure that I have seen registered ones with no parent information, does that mean the grower does not wish to reveal the parents to the public but reveals it to the people granting the registration? or does that mean we can register one with unknown parentage? ...I ask this because many of us have seeds of unknown parentage via swaps.
You can register one with unknown parentage.It doesn't take too much imagination to spot a really big potential problem there."My grandmother grew this one so it must not be registered and named.I think I will register,and name it".I can think of at least three cases where this was done.Who knows what they really are.The three I can think of are 'Rapture'which is Dr Seuss and Mrs.Chambers one and two.There must be others.This is probably a loophole which should be closed unless at least one parent is known.If the pod parent is known then we at least know it's a seedling and not an already existing cultivar.
Why is this important?Because,if you trade for a pink noid you get a pink flower and that is all you know.If you trade for a Pink Beauty you know what the flower looks like,you know what the flower position is,you know how large the plant grows,whether it is disease resistant,what the leaves look like,how often it blooms etc,etc.
I'm kind of surprised that no one mentioned the fact that these Registered Brugmansias are pretty new to the horticulture world. The Brugmansia Societies have worked very hard to distinguish those that are worthy to be named and recognized as hybrid cultivars and get them published. Long ago, I had belonged to one where we had taken and published all the measurements and detail of each feature i.e.: leaves, bloom, and all characteristics of each brug (great idea). Sadly, all that information was lost for some reason...
Star Dancer was one with unknown parentage, but being so unique and after much discussion I was allowed to name her. I was not going to take that on by myself! Knowing when that new brug is truely unique and hardy is really a job for the professionals IMHO, who on earth has the time and energy to compare and grow so many? Dedication is not the only word for our hybridizers, it's a long labor of work, thought, disappointments and pure love of brugmansia. We really have a lot of dedicated brug growers out there to thank for all our pretties, my hats off to them ^_^
You should check the ABADS (American Brugmansia & Datura society) Register of Brugmansia Cultivars and Checklist of Names in Use before you name one (website address: http://www.abads.net/Registry/registrationlong.htm). Give it a number or other info until you have trialed it & know it is worthy of naming (we don't need another single pink that looks like every other one). A checklist is a list of names in use. The ICRA’s Register is a list of names accepted as permanently established & fixed because they meet all the conditions in the Code.
It also has info (if available) on where the name has been established, if the name creates a problem with the Code, if the plant no longer exists, the breeding history group to which the cultivar belongs, who the parent plants are (pod parent first X pollen parent), flower color & form, hybridizer/discoverer (person who put the pollen in the flower or discovered the plant growing wild such as from another country) & seedling parents (who grew the plant from the seed), country of origin & year of introduction.
It has to be published in printed form (such as book, journal, magazine or catalog) with a description &/or illustration of the brug.
It won't be OK'd if the name was used for another plant, or if it is so similar to an existing name that it will cause confusion (like the two Rhapsodys, the person didn't check & just started using the name).
If you have a plant that lost the name tag or you can't remember it or one that has never had a registered name, or one that you got that was supposed to be one thing but doesn't look like the same brug that other people have, it is a NOID.
If you are growing out someone else's seeds (unless you paid for them), it is only polite manners to ask the hybidizer for input on the name (& nice to do if you did pay for them as people like to hear what came from their cross).
I like to write on the stems of big plants with a permanent marker (& just because it says permanent doesn't mean it really is) or paint pen, bury a tag down the side of the pot & put a hang tag or platic tie wide enough to write on at eye level if it is tall enough). I have over 200 brugs & I'd hate to have the ones that are registered turn into a big bunch of NOIDs.
Linda
Linda, what brand permanent marker? I've tried using a Sharpie to write on the stems, but it did work. Besides Sharpie ink fades rather quickly. That's how I ended up with a few NOIDs
I haven't found a really permanent one either. I try to check them & write over top of the label when they start to fade. I use plastic mini blind slats for my labels (cheap & last a few years). If you put a label (not wood, it rots) in the side of the pot down in the dirt where the sun won't hit it, you still have a way to ID it even if the top fades beyond recognition.
If anyone has a good marker that has staying power, let us know the brand. I like something thin so I can fit more on the label.
Linda
Buy the metal label tags. You etch the name in with a ballpoint pen and attach with a small wire that comes with the labels . Never fades,never washes away.....no more NOIDS
Where does one get such a tag?
http://amekron.com/main.html
I ordered 10 boxes and gave away as stocking stuffers last year. Could always do a mini co-op on something like that too.
thanks looking at site now How do I get on the christmas list of someone who has such great ideas?
Well, I would definitely need either a different supplier or a co-op on this one LOL. I can see me wanting a box of 100 and by spring maybe even two boxrs. But, I sure do not need 1000 of them even if I could afford it. I have zero dollars til end of January anyway due to lay off. I will keep the link handy and watch for co-ops on this one.
You can get one box on eBay, but it will cost significantly more. I don't know the seller.
http://cgi.ebay.com/IMPRESS-O-TAGS-ALUMINUM-PLANT-LABELS-TAGS-TIES_W0QQitemZ300272652117QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item300272652117&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
Well that is cool. Still not on my can do list til I go back to work but I will watch ebay and DG when that happens. I like those tags. I have seen them used many times before and just never thought of them for personal use.
Thanks, Mary
I know some people who cut coke cans up and engrave the name on them for tags. Cheap adnit works, you just have to be careful you don't cut yourself.
Cut up blinds with using the paint markers from walmart works good too.
I was thinking about checking out the thrift store for blinds. They frequently have one in the free cart. It is hard to sell a single blind. The chances of someone coming in who just happens to need one blind that size is slim so when they get one in they frequently put it in the free cart and ultimately they end up in the dumpster cause they can't even give them away. I have done volunteer work there many times. I need to check it out.
That where I get mine , that and flea markets. Aslo sometiems I se folsk throwign them out on trash days and I look for them. The paint pens at walmart are expensive but I have some tags out here alredy for three nd four years and they have held up better than my expensive horticuture markign pens.
We use markers by Planters Pride
www.planterspride.ca
As the url indicates they are in Canada.I don't know what their sales policy is since we get them from our local garden supply outlet.The cost is reasonable and they are permanent.I see on their website that they are packed 20 per case so maybe someone could do a co-op on those.I do know that they do not fade and we get a great deal of use before they wear out.