This is my wonderful Herbstzauber a Luminosa x Charleston cross by Monika Gottschalk which i have imported and trialed for the past two years here in Florida under the watchful Eye of the Florida Agriculture Inspector, HZ has proven to be a Brugmansia of superior Quality hybridizing, never once had any sign of deformed Blooms. I am indeed fortunate to have this beautiful German Brug in my Garten. her constant color brings the Sunshine even on a cloudy day.
One more of the whole Plant showing off!
Absolutely stunning!!
That one is magnificent!
Luminosa = Charles Grimaldi x Goldenes Kornett
Again, those lovely Goldenes Kornett genes... got to love em.
Dynamite! I want to live in Florida during Brug season.
Charleston (white double) = Tutu (white double) virus prone x Kaskade (apricot versicolor)
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/188899/
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=527844
..... among other things a white or even a colorful Brugmansia that is harboring white like Ecuador pink which has white and pink genes is often used as a pollen parent. Crossing to achieve a Brugmansia in color is best done to a Brugmansia that has only color genes whether those genes are yellow/orange/gold or pink/orange/ etc. Another reason why Goldenes Kornett is best used as a mother plant as she has only color genes and no white genes. She can take it and give it either direction. Never mind the fact that she (Goldenes Kornett) will give you pods much quicker than the other way around as she is a pure aurea. I like the idea however that all these crosses with Luminosa and Goldenes Kornett respectfully may be hiding genes that make the hybrids more susceptible to variegation. To my knowledge only a few double's exist which are variegated and those are still very hard to acquire. Still, I have high hopes that people like Fred and some others here in Europe which crave variegates will create some very beautiful variegates utilizing less than desirable sports from more well known variegates. I can't stop dreaming and thinking of Kleine Aap (little monkey) x Goldenes Kornett and others which I am sure will be just as invigorating. Goldenes Kornett x Bernstein... etc. Excellent singles for magnificent doubles could be created and probably already have been.
Ahhhh Christa..
She is beautiful!!!
gorgeous bloom, the plant looks very healthy and vigourous.. how fortunate you are to be able to enjoy such beauty!
I need to bookmark this thread Eric. Got to get some sleep. You are a WEALTH of GREAT Information!
I value you!
thank you for the information.. and I just thought they were pretty plants and flowers! If I can manage to just grow them for a few years, I might some day be able to actually cross something beautiful and know what I am doing. That is an awesome flush and beautiful blooms you have there.
Christa, Absolutely gorgeous!
Eric, now, you have me scouring for a GK.
Christa, I am glad, HZ likes the Florida climate. Now it is the turn of Herbstfeuer, Herbstgold and Herbstmond to show, if they like Florida as much as HZ does.
Eric, I have read with surprise your theories about yellow genes being present in Goldenes Kornett and Luminosa. Both have become established plants in my breeding program and for that reason, grew out many seedlings having GK or Luminosa for parent.
Both are NOT true yellows but have the genes for Yellow AND White. Both brugs need a yellow blooming partner to produce mostly yellow colored seedlings.
This message was edited Nov 2, 2008 11:48 AM
Wupperstolz (Tiara x L’Amour seedling Pink Double sport) Tiara =(Tutu x Kaskade) x L’amour = (Rothkirch x Ocre? Hidden yellow suaveolens genes)
Good to see you Monika! Ahh, I have detected yellow and orange both in Goldenes Kornett. I will keep studying them though. As for needing a yellow to produce another yellow.... I have experienced the same thing myself. Pink x Yellow still gives me mostly whites. Are you saying that there are some Yellow x Pink crosses that will give you mostly color? I am learning each and every day. If there are two parents available one that is pink and one that is yellow which can be crossed to produce anything that is mostly color I would like to know about them. I am still learning and I applaud your knowledge. Please share this with us. Thanks for your time Monika it is greatly appreciated. One more quick question. If both have the genes for yellow and white... where does the orange come from in Luminosa?
Wupperstolz (Tiara x L’Amour seedling Pink Double sport) Tiara =(Tutu x Kaskade) x L’amour = (Rothkirch x Ocre? Hidden yellow suaveolens genes)
This message was edited Nov 2, 2008 6:36 AM
Thank you every one for the compliments, i am fortunate to have this collection of Monika's Herbstline and will share more pictures as they become available.
Monika you forgot to include Herbstlicht in your thread which is also at my house
I've done some simple punnett squares with the information you have given me Monika. According to this information, G.K. x Luminosa should yield a double dose of yellow genes 1/4 or 25% of the time. Not bad at all. I've done some other calculations based on the other crosses and the information is much better than what I have experienced. Of particular note is Dr.Suess x Frosty pink... a cross I made myself in large enough numbers to realize I'm not getting anything near what statistics say I should be getting. I imagine there is still something I am missing.
I am still around Eric LOL
...........Wupperstolz (Tiara x L’Amour seedling Pink Double sport) Tiara =(Tutu x Kaskade) x L’amour = (Rothkirch x Ocre? Hidden yellow suaveolens genes).........
I dont understand? Wupperstolz is a sport of a green seedling. The variegation didnt come over L'Amour because it is not inherited but was a spontanous
Sprout Mutation, which is reversable.
Tiara doesnt have any genes for Yellow but for White and Apricot.
All what we can be sure about the heritage of L'Amour is that she had Rothkirch as pod parent. We assume that Ocre was the other parent and that is all and even that is questionable.
The color in Luminosa came over both parents, but she also has recessive genes for White like Goldenes Kornett and CG has.
In many years of breeding Brugmansia, I learned, that the theory and practice are like black and white and apparently, you have noticed already the same when you write:
...................Of particular note is Dr.Suess x Frosty pink... a cross I made myself in large enough numbers to realize I'm not getting anything near what statistics say I should be getting. I imagine there is still something I am missing................................
This message was edited Nov 2, 2008 4:24 PM
Monika,
I am doing my best to understand. Perhaps I am trying to bite off more than I can chew in one sitting. So, let us hit just one instead of multiples.
When you say, The color in Luminosa came over both parents, but she also has recessive genes for White like Goldenes Kornett and CG has..." I interpret this as meaning that Luminosa has yellow from both mom and dad. I interpret recessives genes for White... still inherited as meaning at the very least... we have this picture of Luminosa: YYww which would mean white has filled into two places and is still recessive. YY would be dominant and why she is so dark. However, if we were to see Ywww we would still have yellow as yellow is dominant and hence the whites are acting more as modifier genes or diluter genes. Still, even if this were the case it would be possible to breed for YYYY. This would make for a much better explanation though as YPww, YYPw, YPPP, etc. type combinations would be possible. Am I getting close? The problem I have with this though is that you still don't get the proper ratio's when you actually do the work of crossing YxP etc. You in fact get a few rare individuals in color, but they are very rare. I admit I haven't gotten this stuff figured out, but I have yet to see any punnett squares done by anyone in the scientific community or hybridizing community to explain the variations we get with Brugmansia in color. If we were to assume this simple logic were true as I am trying to understand it as best I can... then simply crossing Luminosa x Goldenes Kornett and Goldenes Kornett x Luminosa and growing up 256 seedlings or so should give us our pure yellow seedling with no white genes in theory. Even if that somehow failed, if one took the two darkest seedlings form both crosses and crossed them together then you should definitely have what you are after. I refuse to believe that this is a simple matter of recessive and dominant without modifying genes and the like somehow also being included in the picture. Never mind the environmental influences on color which points to another source of fluctuation.
What is your intention? It is not even known yet, how color in Brugmansia is transmitted. Does the gene or genes follow simple rules or is/are /they attached to specific genes.
If they are attached to these specific genes, with your theory, the genetic diversity will soon be lost.
I am sorry Christa. It was not my intention to hijack your thread.
Monika,
My intention is to understand. With that being said, if it is not known how color in Brugmansia is transmitted then we can not with any degree of certainty know much beyond our experiences and what we see. As for my theory and the claim that genetic diversity will soon be lost I will agree with you in part. First, any inbreeding or line breeding or selecting for phenotypes as we do will surely lead to less genetic diversity. This is a given if you take the fact that we all seek to breed out or get rid of inferior genes and in so doing so may accidentally select for more inferior genes or at the very least we have to acknowledge that our selection is exactly that... a selection. Those genes we do not select for may remain hidden or disappear as they remain in our original wild specimens. This is precisely the reason why germ banks are kept. In the same light, we are hopefully selecting for desirable traits and weeding out those traits that are not desirable. Many beautiful hybrids have been created with many types of flowers, fruits, etc. Only to find that by many generations of selecting for the best, what we consider the best at any rate, that other desirable traits have in fact been weeded out. Traits like disease resistance, flavor, etc. have been breed out of many crops/flowers over the years. Some have utilized wild hybrids to bring back in disease resistance when those specimens are to be found. Others have sought other methods of introducing those genes via bridge crosses, etc. Whether a gene or trait is attached to another or inherited with another, modified by another gene, or is a complex amalgamation of quantifiable genes and thus a result of many pluses or minuses where it concerns Brugmansia traits is not as well understood as we would like it to be. What is certain is that any selecting for a trait means selecting against another trait and thus a reduction in genetic diversity... for good or for bad. If we can say that we are not certain that a gene for white exists then we may open up the possibility that perhaps a single gene for y and pink followed by a series of modifer genes could make your Brugmansia white or pale in color. We could say that a double dose of yy followed by p could lead to yellow being dominant. There is much that could be said, but there is more that can be learned from experience and larger numbers of a cross being grown out. Genetic diversity or multiplication of many genes for a quantitative or qualitative trait can be very hard to figure out when dealing with just one complex trait. Never mind traits like blooming ability, substance, etc. all being tossed into the works. Much of what we are doing at this stage boils down to luck of the draw and drawing on past experience of everyone that is willing to share. Take a simple virus like CMV. You can not donate blood to premature babies if you have O negative blood and CMV positive blood. This virus is very common in the human population and most will have acquired it long before they have reached the age of being able to donate blood. However, due to genetic diversity and or a bit of luck, some of us do not have CMV and are therefore gifted with the ability to donate blood to premature babies and others with a suppressed immune system. If we take this same idea a step further and state that perhaps some are gifted with a natural immunity to this virus and others may have a combination of increased natural immunity in combination with other factors that would predispose them to the virus you realize that there are varying levels of protection afforded that may be influenced by environmental influences, other sicknesses, diet, temperature, viral load, etc. Now, if we look at a trait like variegation and we assume it is virally induced then if we also assume that most Brugmansia are not variegated then we can assume that some have a better resistance to this virus or even a total resistance to this virus. Again, it is genetically influenced. If we further assume that once the virus has affected a cell that it may be capable of transmitting the effects of that virus as the DNA/RNA have been altered at a fundamental level then we can also have that trait passed on via breeding on another level. Now, we all know many good variegates throw out albino seedlings when used as a pod parent and we also assume that a virus can not be transmitted via seed then it is a good assumption that some mechanism has totally blocked the ability to produce the color green (chlorophyll) other than a virus. Now, if we take this a step further and say that we notice variegated plants across the board will tend to grow slower, be more prone to root rot, etc. then we may also assume that perhaps the pollen of variegated plants thus affected will also grow slower than their non-affected counterparts. Hence, we have to give them (affected pollen) a method of competing with their faster growing counterparts. Minimal pollination....
I like to ramble and to figure things out. In the process I am often wrong, but sometimes I stumble upon some insight.
The variegation in many brugs is not the result of a Virus Infection but is a spontanous mutation within a leaf or a branch and it is reversable!!!
Serious hybridizers select their product by not one but many traits. Healthy and vigorous, easy flowering plants are the goal #1 with sturdy flowers are #2. The latter depends much on the climate and humidity and the trait is fixed on genes and cannot be influenced.
Selective breeding does not reduce the diversity but increases it, because a good hybridizer keeps several good strains with a wide range of different genes and he always looks out for good hybrids to bring new genes in his strains. We have enough species and natural hybrids available to prevent a diversity.
This message was edited Nov 2, 2008 9:19 PM
Monika,
Think of it this way. Pure species are genetically diverse and can not be recreated from impure crosses. How many pure species exist in the average person's collection? You can not selectively breed for more genes than you originally have. You select for what you consider are the best genes... the rest fall by the wayside.
As for variegation in Brugmansia... I don't believe in too much being spontaneous or without cause. I believe things do have causes and rules by which they operate genetically. Whether we are aware of what those cause or causes are in each and every case may remain a mystery. This mystery can be unraveled. You may say that selective breeding a tomato for instance increases the diversity of the tomato. From where did this increase in diversity arise? The answer is not that the diversity increased, but rather the selective expression of certain traits increased and often in a quantitative manner so as to give the appearance of traits not seen in such a large proportion or even at all in the wild as we see them today. For those traits to be magnified, others had to be decreased or eliminated. Variegation is not so much reversible as it is simply a matter of being expressed differently as variegation exists to different degrees in different cells. If you get a batch of cells together that lack variegation in the appropriate place you get a stem that is completely albino. If however you are saying that you can take an albino cell and that this cell will reverse and grow active chloroplasts then this is what a true reversible variegation would be. You have to take variegation at the cellular level to realize that not all cells are affected in the same manner and this is why you get sports that revert to normal growth. Those cells were never affected in the same way. This is another reason why you can selectively hybridize for cold resistance and the like via tissue culture much more effectively and quicker than by breeding for those traits over time. If we simply say that variegation happens spontaneously and without any rules to govern it then all hybrids can become variegated without any cause or reason why. This just doesn't make good science to me. To say that the age of the hybrid and other environmental factors may come into play... that I would buy. Saying that a hybrid may become unstable after repeated propagations.... I would buy that even...I will also agree with you that hybridizing should incorporate more than one goal or trait. The more traits one is selecting for the more seedlings one must grow statistically speaking and the more one is also culling as one naturally culls that which is not representative of what the particular hybridizer is after. Each hybridizer has their own set of goals and while we may all place certain ones above the rest we are also swayed by what we see and wish to work with that may pop up unexpectedly.
Genetic diversity can be seen in our overabundance of pure aurea species with which many hybridizers work with. Genetic diversity can be seen in the plethora of pure versicolor species that we also work with. Each species having been kept pure and developed to its fullest potential by serious hybridizers for use by serious hybridizer who wish to breed these back into our multi-hybrid gene pool as well as by those who wish to keep a pure gene pool available of each species to further improve upon the species as if that were possible given the bright orange aurea, red aurea, peach aurea, and so much more that we have to work with that is not only free of virus...but ohh so easy to root. If this were reality I think I might be on top of the world. In reality we have Rothkirch which is extremely hard to root and a handful of other pure aurea which are just as elusive to the average hybridizer.
Perhaps in the years to come our pure Insignis species and the work within the pure Insignis species will be most remembered, but there are actually some hybridizers that think a pure species can not be improved or is not worth the time or effort to improve upon.... Genetic diversity is extremely important.
Thanks Chrissy. To expound on variegation just a bit further. Variegation is the result of chimerical tissues. http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/tisscult/Chimeras/chimeralec/chimeras.html
The above link is an over simplified explanation and like many idea's and theories there is debate. What is for sure is that individual cells can vary in their expression of traits and those traits can be expressed and selected for by the position of the cell in an apical growth area for example or in cell culture/ tissue culture. Some tetraploids are in fact chimera in nature and the resulting plant is unstable. One may however continue to stabilize or in fact stabilize some of these mutations via the next generation as some seedlings will be tetraploid and others diploid. You may even get a few triploids and impartial sets uploaded into your hybrid. I have been working with creating chimera forms via grafting and there are many chimerical grafts that have resulted in plants with tissues of both parents.
http://www.cactus-art.biz/note-book/Dictionary/Dictionary_G/dictionary_graft_chimaera.htm
Simply put, if you were able to create chimera grafts on purpose rather than on accident as the vast majority of them seem to be then you could introduce variegation into any Brugmansia hybrid via grafting in this manner. You could also produce flowers which were yellow on one side and pink on the other and any other combination the plant chose to throw out as the cells randomly moved about.
First... Burgele... Thought i had posted the other day, but I guess I hit a wrong button and lost my post. Wanted to say you have a very very beautiful baby. Does she have a scent and what does she smell like?
Eric... you said. " we also assume that a virus can not be transmitted via seed then it is a good assumption " Just wanted to say that some viruses can be transmitted through the seed. There are some virus that travel through all parts of the plant and up into the pollen and other sexual parts of the plants and can infect a growing embryo inside a seed.
Also, you said, " Pure species are genetically diverse and can not be recreated from impure crosses. How many pure species exist in the average person's collection? You can not selectively breed for more genes than you originally have. You select for what you consider are the best genes... the rest fall by the wayside. "
I might have to disagree with you on that one, unless you can explain to me better why not. To me, my way of thinking is even if you have a hybrid, if you continually keep back crossing you will eventually get to some point in time where you have a pure species again. It woudl seem that at some point you would have breed out all the genetic hybrid genes and be back to square one.
You ask how many pure species can one person have in their collection. You cannot selectively breed for more genes than what you have. My question is, you have a species, you think you have a pure species, but how do you know that you have reached the total gene combination for that species. If you kept crossing a so called pure species to itself, would you not at some point pull even more recessive genes out. If you kept crossing them and crossing them and growing out all the seed, at some point, would you not end up with a mutation that would in fact give you even more recessive genes from the species to work with.
I admit I am new to brugs and very unfamilar with their in and outs yet, I work with Daylilies. For example I took a species and keep selfing it and grow out the seed. Most of the time I got seedlings that look just like the mother, but on ocassion I have gotten a mutant and have a seedling that is from a selfed species that is quite shorter than the species. It not only is smaller in height, but intea dof being a night bloomer like the species it opens during the day and half of the night.
So can this not be done with pure brug species and then use the mutants back to pure species and see what develops from them?
Yeah!!! Monika's here!!!
Everyone's coming out of the woodwork .. LOL
This is another of Monkia's beauties! Congrats Monkia, I have yet to see one of your brugs that I didnt like..lol I love them all! If pressed to chose one ,I wouldnt be able too..they are all gorgeous ! Christa you do have a greenthumb my friend!
Starlight,
Answer: back crossing continually can yield you a hybrid that is in theory very close to being a pure species. It may even look identical to a pure species and breed true to form. This is theory though. Now, let us take aurea x suaveolens. If I continually cross aurea x suaveolens back to the same or even different aurea to get a pure aurea, but I intentionally select hybrids that clearly show suaveolens genes then I may never acquire my pure aurea. Similarly, even if I don’t do this intentionally, there may be genes that are hidden in the genotype or hidden from our view that may resurface later. Let us say that I want the color yellow and yellow is only available via suaveolens. Each time I cross to an aurea I keep my yellows…. The question you have to ask yourself is if you can fool yourself and everyone else does it matter? To put it a different way… If I have a pink aurea and an orange versicolor and I breed the two together and produce a rare candida with orange and pink showing. Now, no matter how many times I breed this seedling back to its mom I will never have the mother. I will have a flower that is genetically different and unique. We can argue statistics and probability till we are blue in the face. The problem I have with statistics is that the plants don’t care about them. You have to realize that each seedling from each and every back cross will still only donate half of its chromosomes. So, if the penny wanted to land on heads (suaveolens genes) each and every time it could and in reality a few seeds from each batch backcrossed would likely do so. This is where our eye helps us to discern which seedlings to work with in the next batch and which ones not to work with. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to train my eye to see genes yet. Phenotypes yes, genes no. Now, considering that most Brugmansia are not self fertile, a good indicator that you are getting close to a pure cross might be when that seedling refused to cross back to its mom. The problem with that is incompatibility is regulated by very specific genes as well.
As for your mutation question: Mutations exist in nature and you could cross and grow several thousand seeds and never get a mutation that did not already exist in nature. I.e. you have not lost or acquired anything new unless of course you notice the mutation and see it as desirable and work to increase it if possible or at least to see if it can be carried further by hybridizing as not all mutations will. To better answer your question think of people. When you go to a crowded place and look at people in say New York …. There is lots of diversity and similarity. We may notice different shades of color in skin, hair, eyes, etc. No two individuals are the same. Now, take two of those individuals and imagine them on a deserted island. After many generations you will find in all likelihood that there are still differences, but you might notice also that there are more similarities between a group of 50 in this group then say a group of 50 in New York. We as hybridizers don’t rely on chance couplings or geographic isolation however. We rely on the fact that we can pull from one source or another and select for a specific set of traits that we find desirable. Thus, we are able to move in a desired direction via goals providing the genes are hidden somewhere in the mix to make that goal a reality. We can’t rely on mutations, but we do often welcome them. I have always argued for larger crosses to be done with Brugmansia i.e. growing out more than a mere dozen or so of each cross. Why? I don’t think the full potential of many crosses are being realized. Back crossing is one of the fastest ways to pull a recessive out of a hybrid or pure species for that matter. With the good comes the bad though as not all recessives are positive in nature. So, if you have just three aurea to work with… let us say, Goldenes Kornett, Rosa Kornett, and Rothkirch…. Can you create genes that are not present in either one naturally? The answer is no, it can not be done intentionally. Each cross will represent a fraction of the possibilities of each parent. A recombination and resorting of each pure species parent utilized. You may get a new phenotype, but the genotype will largely remain stable unless you are speaking of crossover genes which is something entirely different. To put it bluntly, it is far quicker to simply bring in a different specimen from the wild…preferably one not from the same exact region to increase your genetic pool of potential genes from which to work with. Yes, crossover genes, recombination or resorting, etc. all these things occur to include mutations, but these are not things we can count on. We hope for them, but we don’t count on them. To answer your question about height and backcrossing to achieve a different height some genes are qualitative genes and others are quantitative genes. Backcrossing in short can allow you to select for different heights if that is your goal.
You ask how many pure species can one person have in their collection. You cannot selectively breed for more genes than what you have. My question is, you have a species, you think you have a pure species, but how do you know that you have reached the total gene combination for that species. If you kept crossing a so called pure species to itself, would you not at some point pull even more recessive genes out. If you kept crossing them and crossing them and growing out all the seed, at some point, would you not end up with a mutation that would in fact give you even more recessive genes from the species to work with.
I must add this, not all of the above is totally true. You can induce genetic mutations via chemicals, radiation, etc. and they do happen in nature as well. You can think of the possibility of something desirable happening with a natural mutation about as common as having a two headed dog. Yes, you might want one and try for one all you want and end up with a dog with two tales instead of the two heads you wanted.
Perhaps you can look around in the older gardens(like grandmothers, aunts etc) and Botanical Gardens for the older species and types.
We have managed to come up with plants from the 70's and older which are pure by doing that. They must be strong to have lasted all those years and with neglect in some cases ...surely good genes to use.
a pure yellow versicolor and a yellow aurea, both disease free at this point any way ...I am wondering if they will become disease prone now they will be living amongst other brugs or if they remain healthy.As far as I know we don't have SB in Australia.
Thanks again for the wonderful ideas and clues.
this is a beautiful brug..I think Christa is just sharing her beautiful pictures with us.. for other discussions start another thread.Lets not be rude
Christa the bloom is an awesome color , you have a greenthumb with Monkia's babies.
Monkia congrats this is a beautiful brug.
Elva
This message was edited Nov 3, 2008 2:53 PM
Christa, that is certainly one beautiful brug! Love the tropical orange color.
what a beautiful color.
