Hi everyone,
I normally hang out on the hostas and trees/shrubs/conifers forums. After reading a few posts on here, I'm seeing a lot of familiar faces : )
Hubby has wanted a pond FOREVER and I think next year we're going to take the plunge and put one in our backyard. We have about 1/4 of an acre yard in town - the area where the pond will be is part of our fenced in "dog yard". We live on a rather busy street and I don't want a pond in the unfenced area of the yard where someone can wander in and fall in. In winter I will put up a mini-fence around the pond so the dogs don't accidentally fall in when we have snow on the ground. We're going to dig the hole ourselves, or at least start it (there is an equipment rental place just a few blocks from our house, if the digging gets to be too much) and are thinking of purchasing the following kit: http://www.pondliner.com/product/savio_pond_kit_14_x_19/pond_kits_with_savio_components
I'm thinking of purchasing our koi from Kloubec Koi Farm: http://www.kloubeclive.com which is only about 30 minutes from our house. We're hoping to have the pond done by the end of June in 2009 - once it is complete, how long do I need to wait until we can put fish in it?
So, the pond will be about 9'x14' and about 3,500 gallons. Hubby wants a pond to have the sound of water in our yard - his main request is that the pond must have a fountain. That seems like an easy enough request. I want the pond because it will mean that I can purchase koi and have more pets! Plus, it opens up all sorts of new gardening possibilities. I started getting a little overwhemled yesterday thinking about costs and the fact that landscaping the area around the pond would be a multiyear project, then I read through the thread of everyone else's ponds and saw that is OKAY because it is what most folks here face. I've dallied in concrete work and hypertufa quite a bit this year - can I line the inside of the pond with concrete to make it stronger? I would like to reinforce with concrete and imbed smooth river rock in it to increase the aethetics and utility. Do I even need a liner if I'm going to do that, or would I just go the concrete route and seal it?
What resources (websites, retailers, etc.) would you reccomend for people in the contemplation/planning stage? What books are considered "good" references for koi and pond care? We are regular users of the public library and can probably get just about any book there is - if there is a "must own" book we could certainly purchase that.
Does anyone have any fumbles they could share to help us avoid similar errors?
Sorry, so many questions, and so many are just random thoughts as I begin to get my mind around this project!
Thanks,
Elizabeth
Edited to add: Yesterday when I said to Andy, "You know, maybe we should put in a pond," his response was, "Oh, good! I was going to go buy a small kit on sale when you go to San Diego at the end of the month, now I don't have to sneak around and rush to get it installed while you're on your trip!" (I'm travelling for work.) Sheesh, I didn't realize he wanted a pond THAT badly! Funny how much he wants a water feature, since he's the one who grew up in a landlocked state while I grew up on the east coast.
This message was edited Oct 17, 2008 9:25 AM
Beginning to plan for a pond
I would go to this site www.skippysstuff.com They give great advice for free and I built his biofilter and used it for my waterfall. The thing really does what it says if you let your pond balance out. It took around 3 months and you have to be patient for it to balance itself. Also the advice on here cant be beat. It helped me out a great deal.
Consider a Savio filter/skimmer system, including the built in UV lights. Mine is going on 8yrs of flawless operation for 2500 gal koi pond. Fairly easy to maintain, provides excellent water quality and clarity. Yes, the UV's are expensive, but - you won't regret them.
Thanks Snapple, the kit we are considering has a Savio filter and skimmer, but it doesn't look like the UV is built in, though there is an attachment I think we can buy. It seems so much less expensive to buy a kit rather than individual components - am I setting myself up for disappointment?
Actually the UV's are (were) an add on option. I'm not sure what you mean when you say kit. I bought my system from a local pond supplier who also packaged with it all the necessary plumbing fittings, pvc connections, valves etc. If that's what you are referring to then I would say that's a good idea. At least it was for us as we were complete novices. The waterfall/filter has the option for a bottom drain. We did install it and it turns out we really didn't understand how important it was to have it. Sludge accumulates in the bottom of the filter chamber. The bottom drain makes flushing it a snap. Otherwise you would have to dip it out by hand. We ran the bottom drain underground to a dry well. It is located, again accidentally, in the root zone of a Larix kaempferi 'Pendula'. Talk about making a conifer a happy camper!!! Try a once or twice a week liquid fish poop feeding on any plant. Wow!
Back to the UV's. I consider them absolutely essential to control the green soup algae. They do nothing for string algae, however there are natural enzymatic products on the market that can manage that.
The only thing we didn't do, and wish we had, was install a bottom drain on the pond itself. Consider it. I can keep the bottom of the pond sludge free, but a bottom drain would make that easier. The size of pond you're doing would make it even more of a benefit.
My only other advice would be to resist any temptation to have any rocks on the pond bottom. They only harbor bad bacteria and make the pond much, much harder to keep clean.
I do mean "all components packaged together" when I say kit! The website calls it a kit - liner, underliner, Savio waterfall filter, Savio skimmer, pump, fittings, etc. I am planning on installing the bottom drain (I think the drain itself is extra, like $80 or something). I'm also going to avoid any rocks on the bottom - reading some of the other posts just sounds like a horror story what can happen when waste accumulates in the rocks. The UV is extra, I'll make sure to add one. This is the kit we will probably purchase, with the ShinMaywa pump: http://www.pondliner.com/product/savio_pond_kit_14_x_19/pond_kits_with_savio_components. The price seems reasonable, expecially when pricing out the components individually. Add-ons will be the UV filter, a bottom drain, a de-icer for winter, and a power pump control center.
I'm not familier with the pump brand but all the other components sound good. I have one problem with this kit however. The liner is sized for a depth of 24" This is too shallow for a koi pond, especially in your zone which is also my zone You want a minimum of 3'. The closer you can get to 4' the better. The added depth is important for two reasons: Koi are active large athletic fish that need a lot of room and the water will stay warmer at the bottom during the winter which will reduce winter stress. I also can't tell exactly which size the skimmer/filter is. Maybe I didn't read it close enough. Savio has two sizes of skimmer filters. You will need the larger one. Ask about sizing up the liner for a deeper pond.
http://www.savio.cc/pond-products/C15/
I think somewhere else on the site it says that the kit is good for number of gallons - I'm planning on an average depth of 48 inches (four feet) and was told that would not be a problem with the kit, just would mean it would be shorter and narrower than the size quoted on the website. The kit would make a 14' x 19' pond with depth of 24", but if I make a hole 8' x 13' with a depth of 48", the math should still work. I originally wanted to do a kidney shaped pond but am thinking more and more to start with something resembling a rectangle for simplicity's sake, especially when putting in the liner!
I couldn't tell which size the skimmer is either, and wonder if I just want to buy components individually, even though that would increase the cost. It seems that it would make it easier if something breaks, though, as far as returns/warranty goes.
Curves are easier to handle than sharp corners when installing a liner. You just do a series of pleats vs a big fat corner fold. I see you're way ahead in figuring the depth and perimeter size. Do you want any planting shelves? One foot for marginals and 18" to 2' for lilies etc. As a rule mature koi and plants don't coexist all that well, but hoards of ponders develop strategies to have both, me included. Did you check here?
http://www.pondusa.com/pondki11.htm
As far as the skimmer/filter goes I'm guessing that the kit you've chosen may include the full size vs the compact one. Otherwise I think it would specify.
I'm in favor of a kit because having the proper fittings on hand can save endless trips to the local pond store or hardware trying to fit everything together. But then, we were complete novices and needed all the help we could get. I've since torn out and completely redone a 480 gal gold fish pond with waterfall on my own including some concrete and rock work. I used components from Tetra, Savio and Danner and managed to plumb all the disparate pieces together. Even the type of filtration was different. There is a learning curve, but once over the hump it's actually a lot of fun.
Go and read my thread about "is this normal or do I have bad luck" (something like that) and learn about some of the medical issues I went through this summer (my first pond year). This wasn't the first time the fish got sick this summer. There is a lot of information in there and I found that I relied a lot on Snapples advice. If I could redo my pond I would probably have put in goldfish varieties instead of Koi, and I would have put in bottom drain(s), and had a UV light installed right away. I would have made my pond even deeper with an even smaller plant shelf to give the fish more swimming room and extra gallons. I would not have put the beautiful but parasite haven pebbles and rocks on the bottom intially (I had to scoop them all out on a hot summer day). Get your quaranteen tank ready before your pond is ready so that you can have the pump running a few weeks before the fish arrive. DO a quaranteen because it is far easier to treat the fish for illness in a small tank than a big pond. Consider sources of supply for medicines and find out if you can buy injectables if you ever need them. If I were you, I would ask Klubecs if they would sell you any necessary medicines and injectables should you ever need them (they have everything there because it is their business). Get in touch with the local Koi group if there is one to find someone with a microscope who would be wiling to help you identify any medical problems should they ever pop up. Again your supplier might help you with this. Get a good strong aerator-for your quaranteen/hospital tank and for your pond in the summer or for when adding any medical treatments. Oversize the aerator because if you really need to use one you want to make sure it will really do the job for you. Check to see if there is a vet in your area that treats koi fish just in case you ever need one. Get a book on the medical care and treatment of koi-I have quite a few and found that the one written by the Koivet.com vet is the best even though it is not the prettiest. That is also an excellent source for information online as is Bonniesplants.com Both sites are very helpful but I found koivets book the best, and Bonnies immediate response time and information a little easier to digest without the judgement I found on koivets.
On a positive not, I love my pond and fish and frogs and realize my experiences this summer were not the norm. If my fish die over winter I will replace them with the Hardy but equally cute goldfish types!
Thanks mothermole, I have been reading the posts on your thread! Reading that made me think that I would NOT put any rocks on the bottom and solidified the need for a bottom drain. I'm thinking of waiting another month or so until the plastic liners are REALLY cheap at the local hardware stores, then I will purchase one to be my quarantine tank. I'll make sure to get an aerator too. I also plan on erring on the side of too few fish for the first season - probably just five 8-10" koi in a "pond pack." I don't even want to be too selective on picking out the fish for the first round, in case some (all?) don't make it through that first year of trial and error.
I was out in the yard again moving around the house, I think rectangular-ish with rounded sides (I guess that is more oval) is what it will be, so I can have some nice seating areas and put potted plants nearby. Snapple, I had not run across the pondusa website, thanks for sharing, the prices seem to be quite a bit lower!
I'm not sure if I will have plant shelves, maybe just one so I can try 2-3 pots. Everything I read said that shelves make it much easier for predators, and I don't want to do that! I will probably put one shelf in at 2' and then use bricks if I want to raise the level for marginals. I know we have raccoons AND herons around, so I'll probably have a net over the pond for awhile as well.
Elizabeth
Okay...snapple you started this, LOL!
I got to looking at the other kit ponds available and read the entire installation directions for the Savio kit. The Savio kit DOES NOT have a bottom drain - the part that I was confused with is a "filter drain" but it drains the filter, there is NOTHING installed on the bottom of the pond. That might work fine for a 24" pond but probably not for the tank I'm planning. My pond, which will be 48" deep, will be too deep for a surface skimmer to handle all the work, right?
So, I started to look at the other kits. The OASE brand seems to be very reputable, though more expensive, and the warranty is five years. I started to look at the Biotec 8 pond kit, which includes a UV filter (an extra $300 for the savio kit, so that alone closes the gap in price difference between the two): http://www.pondusa.com/pondki19.htm. That kit WON'T WORK, though, because the pump can only handle a short vertical lift (2' maximum) and it will be more like 4' because of the depth of the pond. I could upgrade the pump, as an option.
I think that I'm just going to have to purchase components individually.
This is so tricky!!! I'm a lawyer and the fine print is still boggling my mind!!!
Elizabeth
It's only just begun. Wait until you have to fit the barbed 1-3/4 to the rigid 2"! Since I don't have a bottom drain I feel ill equipped to advise on the installation, only their value. (Mine does stay clean without one, but at 2500 gals it's not an insurmountable task.) These threads have some really solid useful information.
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/837213/
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/499047/
Install the drain-install the drain! I wanted a drain and I was talked out of it by my contractor because he has several ponds at his home and they are bigger than mine and he doesn't require a drain. I saw his ponds (nice) and he has koi and goldfish mixed in it. He has a lot of fish. I figured he must know what he's talking about and I opted out of the drain. Now, I am guessing that he must have his employees clean his pond or something because they are always clean on the bottom (I have been there multiple times without notice over a period of 12 months). Either that or he is "special" . . .
My pond was upgraded throughout with more water flow and turnover than necessary and still it gets pretty dirty on the bottom. Literally, it is a fish toilet without a flusher (or a drain).
Linda
I posted yesterday on koivet and already had a really helpful response there, too. The best summary is that the "kits" are for water gardens, not koi ponds! I'm so hesitant, but I keep telling myself, "I can do this! For goodness sake, I can install a bottom drain!" I love the fish toilet analogy, that really cinches it for me!
Thanks all...I'll keep posting updates in here as the planning continues.
Elizabeth
Let me know where you find a source for your bottom drain. I am wanting to build a "real" Koi pond and have not had much luck in finding bottom drains. From what I have read here that is a not-negotiable one for me.
It sounds like you're off to a great start. I had no trouble finding a bottom drain on-line. Look for Tetra 4 inch (3-inch ok, 4 inch is better for a koi pond) http://www.azponds.com/Bottom%20Drains.htm
Well, now I received a response from an email I sent to www.pondusa.com and they said that the OASE does function as a bottom drain - it just rests on the bottom of the pond and does not require a liner.
Now I am between the OASE BIOsys 5 Pond Filtration System: http://www.pondusa.com/filter5a.htm (the link has a neat little picture of how it works, it even has a satellite) versus the Aqua Ultraviolet ULTIMA II 6000: http://www.pondusa.com/filter6j.htm, which is a pressurized filter. If I purchased teh AU system, I could have a "true" bottom drain or just set the pump up so that water is pumped from the bottom.
When I was in San Diego earlier this week for a conference, I went to the zoo for a "luxury" and took a few pictures of their koi water feature. The poor koi were huge and only had about 24" max for their water. They didn't look too great. The pond feature itself was nicely laid out though, I loved their pagodas.
Elizabeth
Here is the pagoda, it was huge, close to 4' high probably.
ic - I have a submersible pump that I lower to the pond bottom with a rope tied to the handle when I do a partial water change ( 2x yr ). I hook it to a long discharge hose and direct the water into the yard. I have to lay the end of the discharge hose on a piece of plywood ( anything flat will do) to keep the water from digging a hole in the lawn because the outflow is pretty forceful. The plywood also collects any sludge etc. It's a Savio solids handling pump. It does a great job of pulling debris from the pond bottom. So, using a pond bottom submersible pump will absolutely work.
My only question would be how hard it might be to pull the pump up to clear a clogged intake, should one happen? But again, you can definitely keep a pond bottom clean that way. In my case it's an extra expense having a spare pump. However, I learned the hard way about not having a pump in reserve. I've had two fail in 8 years. They never fail at an opportune time. One failed because a toad got worked into the impeller and one got an electrical short, rarities both.
I would definitely consider the pond bottom pump as practical, IF, the plumbing is such that you can clean, exchange or pull the pump up for winter without having to don scuba gear.
Having the pump easy to pull up and remove for winter is definitely a priority on my list. I'm really not sure how I would "plug" a true bottom drain for winter, as the pump and filter will need to be overwintered in the house.
Guess I'll get to do a lot of studying next week....unfortunately my hubby was scheduled for surgery for 11/5, learned the news today, to repair a hernia. I'll be taking some cargiving time off work (I'm very fortunate to work for an employer that allows for paid care giving time off) and we'll be sitting around the house catching up on reading.
Elizabeth
Well, that's a lousy way to get some free time. I, a lady, have had two hernias repaired. They are hereditary in my family. The second was a mesh repair. I mowed the lawn 3 days later. Both were groin repairs. I believe that gentlemen have a slightly longer recovery period.
http://www.herniasurgeries.com/aboutcenter.htm
I'm glad you're researching all your options before you take the pond plunge.
Mary
I have 3 lined ponds and have submersible pumps in all. Not that I wouldnt' put in a bottom drain if I had it all to do again, but you know us ponders...we think about 6 months AFTER we "do". Sooooo.....mine have always worked great, and kept the water very clear.