What herb can I plant in this spot?

I'm trying to get some control over my small herb/vegetable/fruit/flower garden. I have a small area that I'm adding a few stepping stones so I can reach what is in the center (strawberries and pansies and hopefully spinach for now). It's the crescent shaped area along the walkway. The edges get sun but it will mostly be shaded by grapevines in the summer. I was thinking of a ground cover type herb like thyme or oregano but it would have to take more shade. Any ideas?

I seem to change the herb garden every year sometimes adding more flowers or vegetables, sometimes going back to mostly herbs, I still haven't found the balance or design I want to keep. I was wondering if other gardeners alter their herb garden each year or have found the perfect design and plants?

Here is a better photo of the center. On either side, behind the pots, I've planted hard neck garlic, lettuce and radishes.

In the front, along the driveway I have a small hedge of lavender interrupted by a little native plant, butterfly friendly, "gravel" garden leading to a "meadow" of grasses and flowers.

I squeezed all these different gardens into a small space, so my herb garden seems to ebb and flow with whatever space I can save for it. I want to plant among the stepping stones in the crescent to use the space to the fullest.

I am no expert of course, but discovered that Italian oregano has great ornamental appeal. This is grown in a narrow 9.5" tall pot, and the Italian oregano just spills over beautifully.

Mint like some shade.

This message was edited Oct 12, 2008 1:23 PM

Thanks Moonglow, Your pot of Italian oregano is very attractive and I was also thinking of mint if I keep it potted so it doesn't spread too much. Is the Italian oregano the more flavorful type?

sempervirens, do you want culinary herbs specifically? I've had sweet woodruff and french tarragon do well in shade.

If you don't mind moving past the culinary plants, there are many useful ones that naturally grow in a forest or woodland setting that do well in shadier gardens. Black cohosh and blue cohosh come to mind. They are both lovely.
http://www.horizonherbs.com/product.asp?specific=362

http://www.horizonherbs.com/product.asp?specific=367

Goldenseal is a very beautiful plant that is a long lived perennial that likes to grow in deep woods. You can grow it from seed or root stock. It has become endangered in the wild due to overharvesting.
http://www.horizonherbs.com/pilot.asp?pg=goldenseal
http://www.horizonherbs.com/product.asp?specific=919

If you want something that will take over the area I think mint would be a great idea, if you want something that needs to be a bit more contained...

There is a golden leafed oregano that does well in my semi shade container. I got it at a local nursery last spring. This fall the gold seems to be turning more green. It'll be fun to see what it does next spring.
Vickie

gardenmermaid,
It's funny you should mention sweet woodruff, it was probably the first plant I added to my shade garden and then have fought yearly to remove because it crowded out all the lovely delicate native ephemerals I came to appreciate. But it would be a better choice in the herb garden and a pretty addition there.
I also have 3 lovely blue cohosh plants in my woodland shade garden that I could divide, I will have to check on whether or not that one is poisonous. I believe the black cohosh is. ? I allow all plants into the herb garden unless they are poisonous just in case.
The French tarragon is another plant I had for awhile and forgot about but would work well.
The goldenseal is a very interesting possibility I'd like to research further and use, if not in this spot in my woodland garden. Do you grow this plant?

zhinu, Thanks for the warning, I know the rampant growth mint can produce and the unfortunate habit it has of
dwindling to a scrawny specimen in the pot I place it to control it, all the time sneaking out runners to the garden.

cando, I have used the golden oregano in my front flower garden as a ground cover edging plant in a sunny spot. I can move a bit over to the herb garden and see if it will tolerate the shade. I also have a lovely green and white oregano.

What good suggestions, I was completely drawing a blank and really appreciate the help.

I thought you might enjoy seeing what was there before the revision. Bronze and green fennel, anise hyssop, costmary, and kale are all growing at the sunny edge under the grapes. All self seeded.

sempervirens, if your woodruff was taking over, you were not drinking enough Maiwein or strewing enough of the dried leaves under your banquet table. LOL!

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/w/wooswe31.html

MAY WINE PUNCH
12 tips of fresh woodruff, slightly crushed
1 1/2 cups superfine sugar
1 bottle Moselle or dry white wine
1 bottle champagne
12 fresh, ripe strawberries
In a large bowl, combine woodruff, sugar, and 1 bottle of Moselle or dry white wine. Cover, and steep for 30 minutes.
Remove the cover, stir the mixture, remove the woodruff, and pour the wine over ice in a punch bowl. Add the remaining ingredients, stir, and serve as soon as thoroughly chilled.
Serves 16 to 20.
http://www.herbs2000.com/herbs/herbs_sweet_woodruff.htm

If black cohosh were poisonous, I'd have been dead for decades. I used Black Cohosh to eliminate menstrual cramps in high school........and hot flashes later on. Anything can be poisonous if taken in excess. If you have an allergy to the ranunculus family, then you may be sensitive to black cohosh. I do not know of anyone having an allergic reaction to the plant while growing it, although I have read of that possibility.
http://www.altnature.com/gallery/Black_Cohosh.htm

Mints do not have to be bad boys in the garden. You do need to trim the roots back regularly to keep them confined to their designated spaces.

gardenmermaid,
The May wine sounds delightful. Thanks for the wonderful links you've posted. I've been enjoying the information and learning about new uses for plants. What fun.

Ah, I was wrong about the black cohosh I see, certainly not the first or last time. I really like the idea of using native plants and will plan to try these 3 in the spring.

When you are managing the mints do you pull the whole plant out and root prune? I have always had the problem of them slipping under or over barriers and having them grow into other plants.

I took pieces from existing plants in my garden and planted the crescent so the area doesn't fill up with weeds. I took everyones suggestions and added 2 types of thyme, golden oregano,green and white variegated oregano, and sweet woodruff. I also had a few volunteer tourenias I added for color. It doesn't look like much now but hopefully it will settle in and I can adjust it in the spring. The pots are a little ragged looking but the spearmint and costmary can overwinter in the plastic ones and I can add glazed or terracotta pots in the spring.

This was such a pleasant discussion on herbs I hate to end it. So if you have favorite herbs for shady spots please add them. A friend suggested Chevril, does anyone grow it? I also remember growing Sweet Cicely in the shade.

Sempervirens, I grow chervil. It is a lovely, tasty herb. But, it bolts very early in the growing season. It really likes that cool weather. Worth growing though! And I grow Sweet Cicely too. It's a beautiful plant as well. Chives will also grow in a shady spot, they just won't get as large as a full sun position. Violets are another nice herb, but they spread rapidly. Also for a shady culinary garden: wild ginger. Other shade loving herbs include lungwort, liverwort, trillium, bloodroot, solomon's seal, stoneroot, lily-of-the-valley... Ostrich fern grows in the shade and is delicious as fiddle head ferns in the spring.

Mermaid, we use a Reisling for May Wine and forget the sugar. But, anyway you pour or spell it, May Wine is delicious!

semper, I use a trowel or shovel to slice down along the borders of the mint patch, and then remove the roots that are trying to move out of their boundaries. I usually do this twice a year.

I'll see if I can find the MaiWein recipe in my mom's old German cookbook and translate it for this thread. There are many ways to make it, just like mulled wine.

I have False Solomans Seal which grows well in shade and i greatly want to try Wintergreen.

Thanks for the chervil information herbalbetty. When you mention wild ginger are you referring to asarum canadensis? I have a number of large clumps just waiting to be divided and think that would be a great addition to the crescent.
For many of the suggestions I got, and would not of thought of, I should just raid my shade garden since I have many of the plants growing there.

cando, I also am growing False solomon seal and have finally successfully got a small wintergreen plant to grow after 4 tries.


Wild Ginger

This message was edited Oct 17, 2008 7:21 AM

Sempervirens, yes Asarum canadensis. Also, check out the "Aunt Bett" story written by Sharan Brown and wild ginger gingerbread.

I'd love to grow some wild Ginger.

sempervirens, I am having a difficult time getting wintergreen to grow as well. I think I need a sandier soil. What worked for you?

I'd like to hear about wintergreen successes also... tried starting some from seed last year (winter sowed so it would get cold stratification), and it was a no-go.

Critter, I got wintergreen to germinate and grow (Very Berry Wintergreen), but once I transplanted it, it was unhappy. I've also planted a few purchased plants out to no avail. I think my soil is too damp. But, I'll keep trying!

herbalbetty and critterologist,
I am clearly not an expert in growing this plant, Gaultheria procumbens . In an earlier thread I had mentioned I repeatedly lost this plant and I got two suggestions. The first was to try and purchase a locally grown plant and I was able to find one close by in NJ that was actually grown at the nursery. The second was it was sensitive to and needed a particular mycorrhizal fungi association. Although I did not attempt to try purchasing any mychorrhizal I thought if I allowed and encouraged a part of the garden to develop the natural accumulation of woodland "duff" the area would be more compatible to woodland plants. I then found out that some of the good gardening practices that encouraged earthworms (enriching with compost ) was detrimental to the growth of woodland plants. It seems the earthworms( mostly non native) disturb and destroy the natural and necessary environment the woodland plants need to grow and in fact the worms are escaping into our woodlands at an alarming rate. So although I remove the larger leaves and twigs that might smother plants I try to leave the area alone.
I am not a scientist so my explanation might not be scientifically correct and you might want to do a more serious search.
Here is a photo of my 2 year old plant in the natural duff with partridgeberry (Mitchella repens).

That's a great tip about not disturbing the surface of your woodland garden too much. The area where I'd like to grow wintergreen probably isn't too wet, but drainage could be an issue, although since the builder didn't disturb that bit, the soil is much nicer there.

I was thinking about growing these in containers for a year or two, both to get them to a bigger size and so I could continue my poison-ivy-eradication campaign without worrying about protecting the little plants. Sounds like I need to look into the micorrhizia aspect; hopefully the "right" one would be contained in one of the commercially available mixes.

Betty, how did you start your seeds? Inside with cold stratification or WS?

I may be a little far west for wintergreen. I tried it twice with ordered plants and it did'nt live. I might try to plant it in the woods and see what happens. You guys really come up with some great ideas and info.

Critter, I'm waging war on POISON IVY too. I was unable to garden for several years and it took over. I'm allergic and gettng rid of it while staying rash free is a constant problem. DD who is'nt allergic is coming up next month. She is going to be pulling up the ivy with gloves .

sempervirens, You don't need a degree to be an amateur scientist. Just a curiosity and the ability to observe.
Goodnite all
Vickie

Critter, I started my inside, placed in a cool room and by a cold window. I guess that's stratification of a sort! :-) Then, it lived on my porch for a time. Once planted out though, it was unhappy.

Thanks, Betty.

Cando, "Round Up Poison Ivy and Brush Killer" seems to be the best answer I've found. There's just so much of it established (entrenched, rather) in my little fence row of trees along the back that it is taking repeated applications over several years to get rid of it. I can't risk pulling (horribly allergic). If you have the vining kind, cut the vine near the base and paint full strength herbicide on the "stump." A foam paintbrush for application to the leaves also works well for killing it when it's near a choice plant in the garden.

Thanks critter, Good Sugestion That is definately worth a try. You would'nt beleive the grotesque positions i get into to avoid getting poison ivy on my person. LOL Mine has crawled into my flowerbeds and through my plants. I've rescued most of my daylillies into pots but my iris is still being strangled by PI.

Good luck getting rid of it. Let us know what works! In addition to being toxic, poison ivy is stubborn and hard to eradicate... my "good" plants should be so tough!