We are continued from here: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/882957/
NEW GOAT OWNER QUESTIONS 101 - #2
General Dusty, we got 5 more goats this past weekend. I will have to take pictures soon. Sort of overwhelmed at the moment. Please don't kick me with your flight boot until Wednesday. :-)
Clare slow down!!! You're getting so many at one time and from different sources that you are going to find yourself introducing some nasty illnesses and not knowing where it got started from. Give yourself a chance to get to know them!! LOL Especially if one is going to kid soon!!!
9 of mine are from the same source so if there are problems I know who to contact. Only my main buck came from a different seller and I know them too.
MollyD
Yes, I know Molly, we are done with getting goats. Definitely. Done, done, done. (slaps self upside the head)
We have 17 now. That is more than enough.
Yeah... about 7 too many.... LOL ...Putting Boots on....
And, um....3 of them are due in December.
Claire you just made me look very good! Thank you! Paul thought I had gotten too many too fast till he saw what you did LOL. I now seem very slow by comparison!
We're at ten for now. I say for now cause I know we're breeding some of our older girls soon beginning end of October. We're trying to space them out so no two are kidding at the same exact time but are close enough that their kids move through the same stages together.
MollyD
Well, the first 7 nubians we got because a friend was moving to Colorado and was going to kill them and we couldn't abide the idea. Turns out they have CL and we are on a very aggressive management program, and NO they are not near ANY of the other goats. And we change shoes when we are near their area, etc. We have discussed various options - total euthanasia, or just some, and decided on the management program for now. Those goats we took as a 'friend' thing and we can't deal with the euthanasia when there are management options.
The mini Nigerian Opal was an impulse buy but is my fave and I'm so glad we got her. She is a lap goat.
The 4 pygmies who are not all so pygmy - well one of them is quite old and not fertile so she is just a fun goat. The young wether and his sister are skittish and not our favorites. The mom is Greta and she's our problem goat now.
The 5 we got this weekend include 2 six-month old nubian does who are in great condition, and 3 more pygmys who are all bred and due in December. Our intention is to keep a mixed flock of nubians and pygmies but not the CL ones who will not mix with the others.
We are enjoying our goat centred life right now.
Claire
Did you get to this page and read about CL http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/ ? There are lots of links there to related articles including one that states:
"Carefully inspect each and every goat that you consider purchasing. CL can also be spread from other species to goats such as sheep to goats, goats to humans, goats to horses, and vice versa. A waiting period is a good preventative measure to take when buying goats from an unknown source. Better yet, purchase your goats from persons whom you know you can trust and where you know the history behind the herd -- including all aspects of feeding, care, health management practices. A little prevention and common sense plus the unity of goat owners world wide will help to control and stamp out the spread of CL."
Make sure you wear rubber gloves when handling those goats! Do you know that a goat with CL in more than one lymph node is rejected by the meat market as unfit to eat?
It's sometimes airborne too so right now all the goats you have could potentially become infected. There is even one form of CL that goes through the mammary gland infecting the nursing kid. Altogether there are about 6 or 7 different forms of the disease.
MollyD
Thanks for that link again Molly - we need to get a sticky thread of good goat links going.
You had helpfully provided this link before, and I have indeed read the articles on there and there is such a range of opinions - it's hard to know what's best. But in fact your having posted that link before actually led us to the realization that culling isn't necessary.
We REALLY like the article by Rosemarie Sozstak - in fact that was the one that made us decide to go with the aggressive treatment option. I especially like the last line of her paper "Without culling and by keeping a level head I've been able to eradicate CL from my herd." That is what I want to achieve.
I also like the article by Virgil "Doc" Fleming on using formalin (which we don't intend to do right now). He says "...in some countries outside of the United States, CL is viewed with no more concern than the common cold. But, here in the land of unlimited pharmaceuticals -- we can fret. Therefore, we do." I thought that was an interesting comment because from everything I have read, really the goats themselves are not unhealthy when they are infected. They run around and play like any other goats. They are hungry and thirsty like other goats and they sleep like other goats. They don't cry or behave lethargically or anything like that. They simply have abscesses. So, we are starting a rigid program of lancing, disposing, iodine rinsing and general isolation.
I've also talked to someone who runs a goat cheese operation here and learned that it is extremely common in dairy herds and that as long as you pasteurize the milk, there is no problem with the milk. There is no reported transmission by semen so you can even breed with infected billys as long as they haven't got any active abscess. Also, you can breed infected does because the transmission in utero is uncommon, and as long as they don't have an active abscess, you can leave the kid(s) with them for initial feedings of colostrum.
The articles primarily stress that the mode of transmission is from infected pus or through infected tools such as hoof trimmers, needles, shearing equipment, etc. Also they stress that human infection is very low and if it does occur it is normally a mild skin infection that is easily cured with antibiotic ointment. So although we will of course be gloved, it is by no means a worry for us. Even the vet that did the testing got pus on him and simply washed his hands and said it was nothing serious to worry about - just practice normal proper hygiene as we always do after handling any animals.
Since they are not meat goats, we are not worried about that aspect of being rejected by the meat market. We will also not milk any does with abscesses that are visible. And we will always pasteurize.
So we learned a lot from that link and from some other articles we've read and we were so relieved to find that we didn't have to euthanize them all. With time and effort, we will bring the CL under control.
Claire
OK, I have established with a phone vet consult that it is likely mastitis. She has said that I need to administer Penicillin G by IM injections in the neck muscle for 5 days. She suggests 1 inch deep. She said not to go too deep or I could hit a nerve. She said to try and get something called Cephelac (sp?) that is in a tube that can be inserted into the teat and administer a little of that each day for 5 days. She said 18 to 20 gauge needle. She also said 3-4 cc.
Please, anyone who is familiar with giving goats injections, I have NEVER done this. I have nobody to show me how. None of the large animal vets in our area are taking new patients. Nobody has time.
Please, please give me some advice. She just said to find a big neck muscle.
I think I have to hold the syringe upsidedown and tap to get air bubbles up and then squeeze out the first drop to get the air out, right? And then just shove it in and depress plunger??? OMG....I am soooo nervous about this. If I could just get shown once, I'd be fine, but this is scary for a non-experienced goat owner.
She said the treatment would not affect the kids if she IS pregnant.
Claire it's hard to describe via computer. Are there any goat owners (especially those with large herds) who might guide you through this? Maybe where you bought your pygmy? In spite of size the process is the same. I've never had to do a IM shot. Only under the skin so I can't guide you through this part of it. Sue might. She's had loads of experience. Also here are a few links on the subject:
http://www.ehow.com/how_2063806_give-goat-shot.html
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/shots-injections_gwmf.shtml
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/injections.html
Good luck!
MollyD
Claire.... Fill the syringe a tad fuller than you need...and yes, turn it needle up and snap on the side to force the air up to the needle and express the excess with the bubbles...First lay the syringe in a warmer location for about 15 minutes to help warm the solution a bit, otherwise it stings...then do the snap routine, and then use a cottonball with alcohol on the location...I prefer the buttocks rather than the neck as they can snap the head back on the neck, but the rump won't move..Grab a chunk of meat, raise it, swab it, and then very quickly plunge in the needle and depress the plunger...don't try to shove it all in at once.. Penn-G is very thick...so go easy but steady...18 Ga. is the best for Penn-G...
And that is from the OLD Nam Nursie...Oh yeah .. works the same on Human victims too... LOL
Any ideas why the vet would've specified neck? I HATE neck!!
Yeah.. same place they shoot horses.. I still do rump.....
Same here. I've never heard a reason to do one over the other though.
Honestly, neither have I in all my many years of shooting things... Penicillin is always in the rump on humans, and I have followed that with animals...a slinging head be it cat or horse is no picnic with a needle in your hand causing them pain and possible damage...
I've never done IM at all. Everything I've given mine has been Sub Q. One time I was told the neck. Goat gave such a holler and rolled his eyes! He scared all the others and it was just Bio-mycin which doesn't sting. Since then I always go for behind the leg.
Don't forget to have that epinephrine on hand in case of a reaction. You can loose a goat in minutes if they have a reaction to the shot.
MollyD
She said neck was best because that is the easiest place for a novice to find good muscles. I like your rump idea better.
Horse Hockey!!! The Rump is FULL of Muscle and less chance of nerve damage!!!
C'mere lil gurl... lemmee give YOU a shot of 4cc of thick cold white goo in YOUR neck....
I've got chills just listening to that "Dusty"
Hmmm...that was vivid. I'm going for the rump. I have to do it tomorrow. It's too dark and pouring rain now. We can't go try to catch her in the dark with wet grass all around. It would be a disaster waiting to happen.
RAIN did you say RAIN we haven't had rain in so long i don't even remember what it looks like.
I'll suggest that it moves on down your way Harmony!
Thanks it's so dry here you can hear the trees coughing.
New goats as promised (intermittent satellite internet here due to rain, sorry if I don't get finished...)
Goat 1: Cookie the Nubian, 6 months.
Goat 2: Coffee the Nubian, she is Cookie's sister.
Another pic of Coffee.
These were all taken in the dark with flash. I'll have to get some good daylight pix soon.
Goats 3, 4 and 5.
Muffin (in the chicken house...clever little girl)
Puffin (in the middle, pink collar)
Stuffin (to the right)
Puffin and Stuffin are sisters from a petting zoo.
Muffin is unrelated.
They are all pygmies. They are all also bred and due in December.
Muffin in the chicken house with Flame and a young Ameraucana.
Awww....
Finally, a group shot:
Left to right:
Muffin in the chicken house
Greta sniffing at Opal
Opal eating hay in the new manger Kelly built today
Coffee up
Cookie down
Puffin
Stuffin
They are such a bunch of sweeties. Opal, Puffin and Stuffin are super friendly. Coffee and Cookie are medium friendly. Greta and Muffin are pretty skittish.
