Its a cool overcast day today and that has me thinking fall is around the corner... which means winter can't be far behind. Does anyone keep fish in tanks inside over the winter?
I have been looking at setting up a rubbermaid 150-300 gallon tank in the garage. I won't be able to bring all my fish in and am not even sure which ones to pick. I feel my koi are mostly too big for this tank and was thinking of bringing my sarassa and shubunkins in to make more room for the koi. I want to make sure the have plenty of oxygen and don't want them to have to compete because I know the goldfish will more likely survive that battle. I am wanting to seperate my goldfish and koi next year and build another pond, so this might also help with that process.
I thought I could rig some PVC to the drain provided for a bottom drain and use one of my already cycled filters from the pond. My garage isn't heated how do I keep it warm enough for fish to at least eat occassionally? How about humidity? Any input is appreciated.
Who keeps fish indoors in the winter?
I am interested in what others say about this subject as well. This is my first koi season and I worry about the winter too! I have three koi that are small and less then 1 year old. Will they have enough weight to carry them through the Chicago winter? Will their immune system be strong enough to make it through the issues associated with Spring and illness?
If your pond is deep enough and you use a deicer for a hole in the ice, none of those fish you mentioned need to come indoors. All but very young fish should do just fine. Spring is a rocky time for koi when their immune system hasn't kicked in yet and the pond is starting to spring cycle. It's not the same as a new pond cycle. There will be good bacteria left from the previous year to get things going. Keep an eye out from late March to early May, particularly for fungus. If you really want to bring in your fish you will have a heck of job with indoor filtration plus Ph adjustment from pond water to tap water. Then a Ph change again back from the tap water to the pond water when they go back out. It's all stress. Then you have to figure out how not to temperature shock them when they do go back out. You could have enough trouble with this part that they don't go back out until June!
The rule of thumb I use is to stop the waterfall, pump and filter when night time temps are forecasted to stay below 40. Same with spring start up - watch for a forecast where night time temps will generally stay above 40. Absolutely do not feed until water temps stay above 50. If you feed them when it's too cold they can't digest it. The food literally rots in their stomach and they die from septicemia. Some koi breeders don't feed until the water temps are above 55. Feed a low protein high carbohydrate food until water temps get to around 70. Got your fall food yet? Same thing.
As for deicers. ALWAYS have a backup deicer ready. I don't care what brand or what kind you get they all fail, eventually. The last thing you want to do is to have to get a hole open in the ice when it 20 degress outside and you are trying to find another deicer in a hurry. I've been there.
My pond is about 4 feet deep at the deepest, around 2000 gallons. My worry is we've had a lot of baby goldfish and I don't want them in there with the koi. I've been trying to catch them and put them in a seperate tank and give them away. Gave 2 away, have 3 little sarassa cuties left. But the ones left in the pond(around 6 as far as I can tell) are smarter and sneakier.
I want the adult goldfish out too, so they can't breed, especially the two commons I have in there. I can get rid of most of the sarassa babies in the spring to the local fish store, but the commons will end up feeders, and I won't do that. My shubunkins haven't spawned, which I'm kinda dissapointed about because they are my favorites.
Okay, and I'll also admit I would also like to see my fish over the winter too but if it is better for them to stay in the pond, I will do it. I'm getting an aquarium to deal with this but know I will miss my bigger fish, especially my shubunkins(2 of them). I saved one after the weekend my husband was supposedly pond sitting. The water level got too low and he got trapped in the skimmer. I saved him with fish cpr and a spray from the hose and he has been the friendliest fish ever since:)
Thanks for the info snapple, you are always a wealth of information. Can you recommend a good pond deicer?
I agree with Snapple, none of these guys needs to come in unless you want them to. Also agree with having a backup deicer for the koi. I had one last year in the koi pond that failed in midwinter causing the pond to ice over for a week or more. I was very concerned that they would all die due to oxygen depletion but they were alive and well this spring. I have never used a deicer on the goldfish pond and have not had problems with them dying. One of the advantages to the extremely cold water is that it retains oxygen exceptionally well and the metabolism of the fish is practically at a standstill during the winter months here.
I don't really want to reccomend any particular deicer, as they all fail eventually. I'll tell you what functions best for me and my particular pond size, depth etc. I use a 1500 watt floating Allied Precision in the big pond and a 1000 watt in the small pond. I added a stainless steel guard ( extra) to both. The regular guard rusts out after one season. The deicers I've had the most trouble with are any of the Farm Innovators stuff. I've found the Farm Innovators stuff to be very unreliable. Because of the high wattage the Allied Precision are NOT cheap to operate, but I have a large open area of water all winter and I like that. When it goes below 0 the deicers do only keep a small hole open, but more than adequate.
MerryMary - you amaze me. I'm just too paranoid I guess to let the goldfish pond freeze over. You are absolutely right that you don't have to keep a large area of water open at all times. That's really just my personal preference. My husband would prefer not when he sees the electric bill!
Here's a couple of places that sell the Allied.
http://koilagoon.stores.yahoo.net/apiflpode10w.html
http://www.plantfactorygardencenter.com/search.asp
This message was edited Aug 9, 2008 9:47 PM
Lol, snap is so right! All deicers fail. Makes me mad just thinking about it. I've spent so much money for deicers and have yet to have one make it through a winter.
This year I am going to try the good ole rubber ball trick. I have a friend who said it worked for his pond here in our winter.
At any rate, evesta I kept several koi and several goldfish inside last winter (because I couldn't help myself from buying them and I didn't want to drop them into the cold water without a longer adjustment period). They were all very small when I put them in though, so I felt it was ok for a couple months.
Here was my experience from keeping them inside...goldfish and koi are dirty, dirty poop-machines! LOL!
I have a similar sized tank with tropical fish which I only have to scrub every now and again, maybe every 2 months. On the other hand, the goldfish/koi tank from last winter I was scrubbing and doing multiple water changes at least once a week. I simply could not keep the tank clean. I had plenty of filtration (I ended up putting over 300 gph on a 60 gal tank) and the tank wasn't overloaded.
Moral of the story is, I had peace of mind having the fish indoors ...but it was a chore. It can certainly be done, and my fish came through winter way larger having never entered dormancy than they would've been if they spent it outdoors, which was an added bonus.
To mm, in regards to whether your small fish would be able to survive winter. I had 3 itsy bitsy feeders and 2 koi that weren't larger than 2-3" (from the cheapest tank at Petsmart) that had been in the pond for only about 2 months when winter set in. Not only did they survive the winter, but 2 deicers failed and they survived with no air hole for about a month. I was so sure I'd lost them, but they are still kicking today! I think probably yours will be ok- but I don't want to tell you for sure considering your hard times this year.
Evesta,
We too leave our fish outside all winter. We have always done this and never lost a fish from any type of winter kill. Snapple is right, it is the spring start up that can be difficult for the koi - their immune systems need to be built back up and the good bacteria does not start working until the pond is consistently above 50-55 degrees.
We too have had deicers fail. I do know that early on when we first started ponding there was a problem with the gfi unit. You may want to test your connections now while the weather is nice instead of having to have an electrician come out in the fridgid weather.
We run 2 deicers for a 5000 gallon pond. We had goldfish and koi previously and now we just have koi - the goldfish are just too prolific!
Another thing too is that we do not run our pumps during the winter. The water settles in layers with the bottom layer of your pond at about 34 degrees and this is where your koi will for the most part over winter. If you run a pump during the winter, this will upset the layers in the water and a pump can super chill the water to levels below that 34 degree mark. We turn off our pumps and bring them in when our water temperature starts to consistently hit the mid to high 30's - which for us is anywhere from the end of November to early December. I know some people use air stones, which I have not done. Colder water has a higer oxygen content than the warm water. Also, the metobolism of the fish is much lower in colder water. They do not need food and feeding your fish in temps below 50 degrees can kill your fish.
I have attached a picture of my pond that was taken early last December. Makes me cold just to look at it.
Carolyn
evesta,
I have brought baby koi in for the last 2 winters. Last year I must have had 15 babies and this year it looks like alot more. Probably 20 to 25 babies that I want to bring in.
They go into a stock tank in the basement (100 gal). I use the same tetra filter inside that I use outside on my little pond.
I was told that the new babies can not survive the winter. But last year I missed bringing 2 inside and they were ok in spring.
To fill up the stock tank inside I use the existing pond water to fill it.
I do have to keep a light on for a good part of the day as the basement is too dark.
Putting your fish in your garage with out a deicer won't work. It's just too cold.
You could wait till spring to do a major clean out and pull the fish out at the same time,
unless you are overloaded with fish like I am right now.
I understand that in my area because of the weird hot/cold winter weather we had that a lot of pond people lost their fish. I have been recommended by many pond retailers and koi breeders to use both the deicer and air bubblers in winter in cast this winter is similar to last winter. I live near Chicago.
What do you experienced ponders think of that advice?
MM,
My sister lives in Chicago and she told me that last winter was the worst they had on the books since 1928. I really hope you don't have a winter like last winter. My winters aren't as bad as Chicago winters (even though we are in the same zone) and last winter was bad enough.
Keeping my fingers crossed for you.
Carolyn
I dont like bubblers in the winter. Ponds without circulation naturally stratify in the winter with warmer water at the bottom and colder water at the top. Bubblers pull the colder water down and the warmer water up. Colder water means more winter stress on the koi. Ponds don't need added oxygen in the winter. Cold water holds plenty of oxygen. My preference is a large area of ice free open water with no current. The large open area allows for good gas exchange. No current means the koi don't unnessessarily expend any energy fighting to stay still. I've been to 10 below without losing a fish. I do keep a remote thermometer in the pond at all times. In extreme cold the deicers I run never let the water get below 38. The usual low water temp is 40. I've never, ever lost a fish to winter kill. So far! Now, spring start up and fungus problems. That I have had.
The issue with Chicago ponders last winter (as I understand it) was the freezing and the thawing in their ponds which left the fish without oxygen. The people with air bubblers running had far less losses. Again this is my retelling of what I have heard from all the breeders and retailers in my area.
Bubblers are lots cheaper to run than a couple of deicers. We had the same series of seemingly endless freeze thaw cycles here. (Come spring the roads were horrid with pot holes as a result.) Cold water absolutely holds more oxygen than warm water. Frozen water can't gas off. Trapped gasses kill fish. Open water can gas off. The more open water you have the better the gas exchange. Bubblers can subsitute for large open areas of water by aerating the water with turbulance at the surface. But there is a trade off. The water gets colder because cold water from the surface is pulled down. The bigger the pond the more surface action you need. If you like the bubbler idea then use it. Just know the risks. It will be easier on the electric bill that's for sure.
There is something neat about looking out the dining room window at the pond when everything is snow covered and the open water is steaming in the dry air. I love watching the birds go to the frozen edges to get a drink too. Maybe that's the real reason I keep the water at 38-40 all winter. ;)
Snapple-both deicers and bubblers are recommended for use in Chicago,
Simultaneously!? Wow. Well there's no reason you cant. Plus you have a much bigger pond than I do. It would make a difference. You might need a direct power drop from a pole to your pond to keep it supplied with enough juice to run enough deicers to keep it toasty for the koi. There is a big bottom heater that you can get if your power is 220. Mine isn't and DH says it isnt ever going to be unless that rich uncle dies or we win the lottery.
http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters2.htm
My pond is 10 years old and I leave the fish in all year, we leave the waterfall run during the winter and have had no problems. That includes all the "Baby fish".
I agree that deicers quit at the mose inopertune times, I wont waste any more money on them, just running the waterfall keeps the water near it open and the fish servive great.