Help for my new koi…injured or sick?

I am a newbie with a 300 gallon pond, with three small shubunkin goldfish and one small koi. The shubunkins spawned on August 4th, and on the 5th I noticed that there was a small patch of what looked like a loose scale on the top side of the koi’s head. It looked like he possibly got roughed up a bit. The next day it looked better, and now there is just a tiny white patch in that spot. However, on the 6th I noticed a problem with the side of the koi, on the same side as the head issue. I might have overlooked it when I noticed the issue with the spot on the head.

I took pics, and brought them to the pond shop where I bought the fish. The owner didn’t know what was wrong with the fish, and said the fish didn’t show classic signs of disease such as cottony growth, red areas or ulcers. However, he gave me Interpet Anti Fungus and Bacteria treatment and said to treat the entire pond with it. He wouldn’t really answer whether the koi had been injured or had a fungus or bacteria, which didn’t make me comfortable with the situation or his knowledge about what was going on. He also tested a water sample from my pond, and said all looked good, except the ph was a little on the high side, but not at dangerous levels. He told me to put one tablespoon of white vinegar diluted in pond water into the pond each evening and that should lower the ph. We added the vinegar, and decided to watch the situation for one day, and if things weren’t getting better than I would treat. I will post pics of when I initially noticed the problem on the 6th , and how it looks now, and would greatly appreciate any insights anyone can give me. Should I treat the whole pond with the medication? I do not have a quarantine tank, and am totally new to all of this. Thanks in advance for your help.

Here is a pic of the area on August 6th. I’m sorry about the quality, it was late afternoon and I caught a bunch of reflections.


This message was edited Aug 8, 2008 11:35 AM

here is how the area looks this morning. . It’s hard for me to really tell, but I think the scales look like they are looser on that side, and also aren't as yellow


edited to add: the top tiny white spot is visible in this pic, but the rest of the white streaks near it in this pic are just reflections.

This message was edited Aug 8, 2008 11:42 AM

Here is another shot from this morning:

Here is a shot of the top of the head issue. It is that tiny white spot on the left, and is much smaller than when I first noticed it. This fish is swimming and eating normally as far as I can tell. I can take more pics if needed. Thanks again for your help.

The ruffed up scales look like just ruffed up scales. Nothing to worry about at this point unless a sore develops. The white spot on the head? It doesn't look serious to me. The wait and see approach is a good one. Given how large this koi could get ( 24"-36") what are your plans for it beyond the 300 gal?

Thanks so much for your prompt response Snapple, I really do appreciate it! I will keep a close eye on the affected areas, and hope for the best. I have two options for “retirement homes” for when it outgrows this pond. My dad lives nearby, and is planning on putting in a large pond in the next couple years. Given that his koi are larger than this one, I am guessing that he will need to act before I will. If that doesn’t work out, I can also return the koi to the pond store. They have a very large display pond with customers’ koi that have grown too large, and they do not sell these fish. I have another smaller pond with goldfish, and had planned on sticking to shubunkins in this new pond as well…but I must admit I got suckered in. The pond shop owner is a very good fish salesman (just bring it back, you can come visit it anytime).

Snapple: You made me LOL with your concern over the 300 gallon pond. I like the direct approach!

Mothermole, even though I joked about the “koi salesman” above, I want to stress that I never would have bought this fish without a plan(s) for its future. I also would not have made this post if I wasn’t concerned about its welfare, and am open to any helpful suggestions and insight from experienced ponders.

SunnyG: My comment wasn't supposed to be offensive to you and I'm sorry if it made you feel that way. See, I'm a new ponder too and Snapple has helped me more times than I can remember in only a few months. I LOL because Snapple just comes right out with it and I really like that style. So please accept my apology if my comment made you feel uncomfortable - that was not my intention (or my style).

I truly hope everything is alright with your fish. Anytime anything changes in my pond I get so worried the levels are off or a fish is sick and so on. I just lost a fish in the last few days to some predator and I haven't a clue what/who took my fish so I am at a loss as to how to protect the rest of the school. I've already lost 14 fish this first season to illness and predators and that kills me-makes me feel like a failure but I'm working on it.
Linda

No worries Linda. I think it can be hard to tell a person’s true intention on the internet sometimes, since we don’t have tone, facial expression etc to give those extra clues. I know my comment about being talked into the koi might have sounded a bit flippant, and wanted to clarify that I view my fish as both a joy and a responsibility, and will do what I can to make sure they are in the best situation possible. Like you, I greatly appreciate Snapple’s advice on this current situation, and also that she asked me about my pond size, because as a new ponder there are so many things I do not know and I can use all the help I can get.

I don’t post on this board often, but I do read it, and I’m so sorry for your losses. I lost one fish in my smaller pond due to a raccoon earlier in this year and now have all sorts of wacky alarms set up, but haven’t had to deal with the illness issues you faced earlier this season. I can only imagine how stressful that must have been, and I hope the worst is behind you.

I agree with snapple . No biggy if it's not getting any worse. Keep watching it, and if you see any redness around the scale loss develop, or any cottony fungal growth (it sometimes has a greenish tint to it) then you will have to take action. In the meantime, you can up your salt level just a touch, to kill off any slighter threats, and keep a good protective slime coat on their skin. It looks like you have plants, so you may notice a yellow leaf or 2, depending on how high you go with your salt. Most plants can handle a fairly good amount. We've had so many afternoon storms lately I can't keep ENOUGH salt in my pond, it's always diluted again.
I would caution you about messing with the ph too much...remember, at any point of the day, the ph reading will be different. So unless you strongly feel there's a ph issue, it's better to leave it alone, a sudden ph difference can kill fish immediately.

Ditto on the Ph issue. Best left alone if it is staying within a reasonable range. About the 300 gal pond and a koi. When I first started ponding 7 yrs ago I started with a 480 gal which I still have and is for goldfish/shubunkins only. The first spring for Mother's Day my kids surprised me with a koi. Now there's a problem. I didn't have the heart to tell them to take it back. I also didn't realy understand how fast some of them can grow. I had NO plan!

By late July early August my husband joked that pretty soon the "darn fish" wouldn't be able to turn around in the pond because of his size. Not being a huge ponding fan DH suggested I find other quarters for the koi. He quit joking when he started writing checks for a huge hole in the backyard. He still grumbles about how a $10.00 pet store koi cost him a good five figures. It pays to have a plan.

That is so funny Snapple! I was just thinking the same thing today regarding cost. I started out with a very small hole in the ground thinking "How hard can this be, dig a hole, put in an old waterbed liner, add some feeder goldfish and enjoy" NOT! I found that I could not leave it alone. Now I have two galvanized pools sunk into the ground and a thirty foot stream with plans to have someone with a backhoe come next year to dig a "real" pond. I will be saving all winter for that. That is not taking into consideration pumps, filters, plants and such. I am so glad I do not save receipts. LOL Still I would never again be without a pond I do enjoy them so much.

Wow, see I didn’t know they grew so quickly…thanks for the heads up on that! LOL Snapple, well you certainly found one way of solving the koi problem. I live in a townhouse and have a really tiny yard, otherwise a big hole in the backyard would be my ideal solution as well. Our new “pond” is actually on top of about half of the little cement patio. We would love to expand our small in-ground pond soon. I don’t think that we have room to make it big enough to accommodate my little yellow friend though, once he isn’t quite as little. ;-).

Thank you Mary for the warning on the ph, and Snapple thank you for confirming. I didn’t do the vinegar treatment last night, and instead snuck into a pet store as they were closing, and got some testing strips and I’ll monitor it myself. Besides the raccoon issue, up until this point I’ve lucked out with my fish, water issues etc, but now it is time to learn. I really do appreciate the help here.

I tested the water last night, and again this morning. Last night it looked like the ph fell between 7.6. and 8.0, and this morning it was around 7.6. Those reds on the strip are so similar that it’s hard for me to really tell for sure though. How accurate are those strips? I also bought some aquarium salt, but all the salinity meters are for salt water aquariums and are not sensitive enough to measure salinity levels in fresh water. I’ve read a little about salt and different levels for different issues, but am unsure of what to put in my pond, and afraid I will “kill my fish with kindness.” The last store I went to today recommended Pondcare’s Melafix to hasten healing. I bought a small bottle, but would love to get some feedback before dumping a bunch of stuff into my pond.

The koi looks about the same today, ate well, and was swimming around with the “gang,” so I take it that’s a good sign.

Thanks again to everyone for your help!

I totally agree Tetleytuna…I was sitting on the edge of our new pond and looking at the old pond, and then it struck me: we need to enlarge the old pond! If I’m not careful, it will get to the point where opening the backdoor will lead to simply falling into one big pond ;-). I really don’t have much room to work with, which I suppose it good for the pocketbook.

We just added some water and stress coat to the new pond, as it was starting to get low. We’ll see what tomorrow brings, but now at least I’ve made the rounds to pet and pond stores, and have a few products to work with in case things get worse.

edited for a typo, oops

This message was edited Aug 9, 2008 6:43 PM

sunnyg it's only just beginning. ;D

snapple couldn't have said it any better....I think most of us started with "just a few goldfish" syndrome...
I just got back from Ohio, and my sister is at the same place I was years ago....just a few little fish, in a small pond mixed in with her flower garden...

Yes....she has already contacted her landscaper with modified plans,lol...

Oh man! What have I gotten myself into? LOL. Maybe I can move the fence in the middle of the night sometime, so I can have a bit more room for my plants and ponds. ;-)

Any thoughts on the Melafix or salt? Thanks!

The Melafix is a natural product, and won't hurt anything if added. If there's a skin injury, it will assist in the healing and speed it up, but remember, it isn't a medication in itself.
I'm all for salt. The salt you buy at the petstore is expensive. You can get the water softener salt (make sure it says 99% pure salt) for around $4 a 40 lb bag at WalMart.
If you have a 300 gallon pond, you can easily add 3 cups of salt....but do it one day apart for each cup. I use far more than that at times, so don't worry. After each rain, you can add a little more.
There's a liquid salt kit (very very cheap) that uses a vial and some dropper liquid to adequately measure salt concentration. It's been very useful for me to have.

Thanks so much for the additional info on salt, Mary. I tried to find the salt measuring kit yesterday, but couldn’t locate one at either place I went.

I just came in from checking on the koi, and it appears that some of the roughed up scales came off, and there is a small white patch in its place with a tiny red line in it. The top of the koi’s head almost looks a tiny bit discolored to me as well, but that could be because I am trying to find anything little thing wrong with it. Does this new development mean that I should now treat with the Interpet Anti Fungus and Bacteria treatment? Put in the salt instead?

Thanks again for the help!

Just salt. And a nice soothing cup of tea for yourself.

I really appreciate the quick response, Snapple. You are quite right, I think some soothing tea is in order…if I drank, I would have a nice stiff cocktail right about now ;-). LOL. I will add the first dose of salt when my boyfriend comes home, and continue to try and hunt down a salinity meter tomorrow.

They are pricey. The liquid test kit is much cheaper. Odd though, when I searched around for a site for the liquid test kit some sites said the manufacturer was discontinuing production.

http://www.usakoi.com/prod228.html

http://www.pondliner.com/SaltTest.htm

I don't know if your interested but I'd like to add something about the salt testing kits. I bought a chemical test kit and there were a lot of environmental risks associated with using and disposing of the test after completed that it spooked me. I ended up buying an electronic tester that has no adverse health risk or environmental risks. It is a fast way to test and you don't have to dispose of it through a special collection through your garbage company or town. Personally, we have a high risk of leukemia in my family and my father died at a very young age from it and I worry about any and all contacts with chemicals. Maybe I'm just paranoid. If anyone wants my old chemicals (new from this spring-d-mail me your address and I will send them to you)

My kit only uses about 1-2 tablespoons of pond water, and 4 drops of liquid.

We must use the same kit MerryMary. Not really any chemicals to dispose of.
Nor are there any environmental warnings. It is a corrosive caustic, but apparently not an environmental hazard.

(and I've shaken mine with my finger over the top, and never had any problem, but am NOT saying anyone reading this post should do as I do....)
That's my official disclaimer....

:)

:D

Thank you for that additional info! We added the first dose of salt on August 10th, and then when I went to check on the fish the next morning, the shubunkins were spawning again. Yikes! I didn’t expect this to happen again so soon, but there were little tiny eggs, so I guess it did. LOL.I managed to hunt down one of those salt test kits, and after the second dose of salt the pond was at 0.12%, which is around what the test kit recommended for a pond with plants. Does this sound about right for this kind of situation? We’ve had some really hot weather, so I’m guessing it’s a little higher now due to water evaporation.

The only test kit I was able to locate does have a big warning about toxicity, as the second bottle contains mercury. Maybe this is the one you ended up with as well, Linda? Snapple and Mary, do either of you recall the brand name of the test you use, as I’d really prefer to use something that isn’t so toxic. The koi seems to be holding his own, and doesn’t appear to be any worse. The white patch on his head is almost unnoticeable now, and the side doesn’t look infected at this point. Whewwww. Thank you again for all the help!

Aw shucks. Just glad to help. The test kit I use is called "Pond Care" by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. I used this type of kit for nearly 8 years. No problems. They last a long time. Good to know that the koi is OK. They get a little scuffed up from time to time. They are active fish. If they are generaly healthy and water conditions are well maintained then all they need is time and a good brand of koi food and they are soon just fine.

sunnyg-yes mine had mercury and any amount of that is bad. I live on a well and septic and basically everything gets reabsorbed into the house. I bought the electronic test kit and it is well worth it and in a few years it will pay for itself (I think it was$60.00). All of the test kits seem to have "something" in them that isn't good environmentally. Instead of replacing chemicals when I run out I will be looking into electronic testing equipment for the other tests that are necessary in keeping koi. I just get so paranoid because the type of leukemia my father died of was a rare type that usually only occurs with people who work with and are exposed to toxic chemicals. He was an executive in the insurance industry . . .

mm, My Dad was an engineer. He was also a child of the depression. You didn't throw things away. You used and reused in our house. Being thrifty, and around a lot of mehcanical and electrical equipment gave my Dad an opportuniy to save mercury from electrical switches. ( The don't make them like that any more). He saved large pickle jars full of mercury - which my brother and I played with endlessly. We coated all kinds of metal with it. We rolled it around on different surfaces to see how it reacted. In short we did everything but eat it. And all with our bare hands. I'm 63. My brother is 60. No ill effects to date. So pardon me if I don't get all whooped up over mercury toxicity. The put it in our dental fillings to this day. It's in the mouths of a lot of people.

There is far more convincing evidence that the chlorine used to make drinking water safe is a carcinogen. Scientists would get it out of our drinking water today if there was anything else as effective. Only because clean water is so critical to public health and that there is no cheap easy available alternative to chlorine is it still in use.

What I do believe is that there are thousands of unknown chemical compounds formed in our bodies from the combination of chemicals we absorb everday in our food and from our environment. I'm thinkng of pesticide residual, supposedly safe food additives, hormones in cattle, pigs and chicken, leachates from plastic wrappers and containers, cleaning solutions, the list goes on. Very little is known about how these chemicals interreact.

So, a little mercury. Probably not a real concern. But, in combination with any number of other chemicals, some of them thought to be harmless, well now you have true cause for concern. Thank You. Now I will get down off my soap box.

Yeah I played with mercury balls as a kid too (when a thermometer broke). I just like to play it safe. We live as chemical free life as possible in our home due to the fact that both my husband and I have two different autoimmune conditions that can react to anything plus the leukemia with my father. Why take chances is my motto!

That will make you cautious, and deservedly so.

Okay enough morbid chemical talk-back to Sunnyg-how are your fish doing?

Thanks for asking, sorry I haven’t been able to get on here and respond sooner. The koi seems to be doing just fine. I am incredibly grateful for all the great advice and information you all gave me on this thread. Here is a recent pic of the new pond with the fish. The koi, camera hog that he is, is in there. ;-). You can kind of see the small pond’s waterfall in the background too. The waterlilies have gone totally nuts, and we had to prune them a bit last night. The blooms are so, so pretty. This picture does not do them justice at all.

Beautiful pic sunny! I love that light blue bloom in the bottom right hand corner of the pic.

I am chairman of our board of health. We do thousands of water tests each month at ponds and swimming pools. Trust me, in the concentrations used for water tests NONE of the water testing solutions are hazardous. You are more likely to suffer from exposure to your bathtub cleanser. In quantities, of course, anything can be hazardous. Try eating a tablespoon of salt, or even your fluoride toothpaste can kill you if you eat enough of it.

Now I want to find a thermometer. lol
That is one pretty koi sunny!