The only birds we keep right now are chickens and I had been thinking about branching out, but ...... The fox came roun' one summer's niiight... if you know the old kids' song(didn't someone serenade us on a different post?).
I got to wondering if maybe having a goose or two in the yard might deter one? Mostly I need something that will raise an alarm and geese are bigger and meaner than guineas. The dogs do fairly well but they don't stay out in the pasture with the other birds when they go. That rotten fox comes through one of two pastures and I wondered if having geese in each one might not slow it down or raise an alarm enough that the other birds would get out of the way. There are plenty of trees, fence posts and other escape places if those silly hens just would raise an alarm instead of standing there looking at the fox and TELLING it to go away. (DH actually watched this happen- the chicken stood there Bockbockbocking at the fox in no uncertain terms -looking right at it while he was running to get his gun/ fox/ to the rescue...)
Get me a guard goose?!
They have video tapes of foxes doing something I think is called "charming" prey animals. It is really extraordinary--the fox rolls and tumbles around while the poor prey animal (e.g. rabbit) watches fascinated--then the fox gradually tumbles close enough to pounce and the poor prey never makes a move to escape. Strange.
I know geese can be mean and aggressive in protecting their territory and young. Would they be able to see well enough at night to raise the alarm?
I've got geese and while they would raise a racket they would not be able to hold off a fox. It would kill them easily. They see very poorly at night!
MollyD
This message was edited Aug 2, 2008 4:03 PM
my geese have chased off small to medium sized dogs, but barley got away from the rott and g.s. i would have to say their size and noise should be a deterrent. mine stay out at night and can see fine, ther are nearby security lights that help.
a nesting goose is a sitting duck. ours was drug off by a coon...
but i would say of all fowl, a goose, like a chinese white or embden, is your best bet!
tf
White Chinese is what I have and I know they don't see well in the dark since several times they've failed to recognize me when I went to close up. They tried to run away yelling and flailing their wings LOL
MollyD
i ocnsidered that too, they don't like it when i go out in the dark, probalby don't kow who i am, but they see/hear me from a long ways off and go into defensive mode, which is what i would hope would scare off a fox. however, three of them couldn't deter the coon.... so i htink i just need a larger flock...
Two are enough of a handful for me! You should see Hanzel trying to stand up to Paul and boss him around LOL. Paul finally accepted that Hanzel was not trying to bite him that day. Now he ask me to let those two out in the evenings when he gets home. Then he walks them over to some dandelions and picks them for the geese. He's tried to show them where it is and that they can eat it themselves but being royalty Hanzel prefers the peons pick it and feed him LOL
MollyD
My hope was that I could get something to raise an alarm and the dogs would do the rest. I don't want to leave any bird a (how do I avoid this nasty one) sitting duck. These would end up in a pasture surrounded by other animals and have dogs to come running if they called. All my animals thus far have been very respectful of one another and the dogs protect anything introduced as 'babies' so I'm mostly wondering how much of a risk I'd be taking. We've never yet had coons or anything, I think because the chickens are out by the goats and horse and they don't want to get in among them. The fox though is brazen enough to walk right in like it owns the place and since the goats and horse don't feel threatened no alarm goes up.
I keep having visions of geese in dirndels(sp) and lederhosen and a thick German accent. I'm Hanzel. Und I'm Grrretel. I should look into the White Chinese maybe. I haven't really checked into anything thoroughly yet.
Thanks
grownut,
I recommend a perimeter fence of 6 ft tall welded wire with a skirting tied into it at ground level .... extending outward flat on the ground about 2 ft to prevent diggers from getting under the fence. I've had some tell me that a fox will or can climb a fence .... I'm still scratching my head on that one (no offense Josh). A TALL welded wire fence ought to be a significant obstacle to get over the top and if you have a skirting sewn into the bottom of the fence ... it'll prevent anything from digging under. If you get that much done and the buggers are still coming inside .... put an electrified wire up on the outside about 18 inches from the top about 4 inches outward from the fence. Not much will get by that set-up. My bet is it would stop raccoon, fisher, fox, feral cats, dogs, coyotes. About the only predator that could get through would be small weasels like mink and stoat. If you have mink close by ... you're in just as much trouble ... as bad as the fox I'm afraid. A smaller gauge fence would have to be used for the skirting (like hardware cloth and you'd also have to use twice as much because the little weasels jump ... so go up 2 ft tall erect to prevent the little weasels from running through your beautiful fence. It would be a lot easier to not have poultry.
Kelly in Moxee
Kelly the grey fox can climb trees so no reason red ones couldn't climb a fence.
MollyD
Kelly-
Our chickens rule the entire yard, play with the cats, eat with the dogs. I'm really hoping to make it not worth the foxes trouble to come close(I know, wild idealism). The woods and wilds are full of prey for them. Foxy is coming through electric fencing to get to my birds. The dogs are chasing it off and keeping it off most of the time, but when they do sneak by nobird is giving the alarm. I'm almost more worried about a tight enclosure because the birds can't get out of that to get away from anything. This is the root of all those inside out building schemes I posted -I don't think anything could climb sheet metal so as long as there is no wood on the inside except for high nesting boxes only flying things should be able to get to the roosts. If a weasel or snake got in could they climb up or jump up 4' of bare sheet metal?
Kelly
Hi Molly--grey fox have special anatomical adaptations for climbing trees (short legs, long hind claws) but red foxes, the wiley beasts, have been reported to use the posts to aid in their climbing. My legs are short, but I would use the posts too;0)
I want special adaptations. Mere posts aren't enough! We have red fox here the the info is welcome even without the envy.
Here's the answers to all your Antipodean prayers! The floppy top's the trick. You just open the PDF on the top:0)
http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive/publications/cat-fox-fence.html
grownut,
Yours is a scenario I've not discussed ... being willing to allow a predator to have limited access. I have geese. They walk right up to me and basically beg me to hold them. They're honking pussycats ... totally lovable. I waited 4 yrs to buy my pair of Toulouse geese. I would be extremely bothered if mine were killed. Geese can live 12-15 years when cared for well. I would not count on a goose making much difference as far as sounding alarms. If you're willing to let the fox come into the poultry area then there will almost certainly be recurring predation with ever increasing frequency till you tired of missing poultry or the flock was decimated. I am glad we do not have fox here and so far we haven't seen raccoon either. I have finally figured out a way to stop raccoons but the cost here would be significant in new fencing plus the electric barrier. If I ever see a raccoon ... I'll be investing in whatever it required to defend the poultry pasture.
I think it would be nice to see fox running around here on my property and even fun to see the raccoons but the cost of the additional security would be kinda significant. Chances are if or when the raccoons move in .... we won't have to do anything special to keep out fox. Both dig and climb well but neither could jump clear over a 6 ft woven wire fence with an electrified wire near the top ready to zap them so much they'd never try climbing over the fence.
Best wishes to you and your flock.
Kelly in Moxee
This message was edited Aug 2, 2008 9:05 PM
It would only load as a damaged file??!* Saw some videos on the same link though. Amazing.
How do you come up with all these perfect links so quickly? Omniscient or mere supernatural powers?
A little from column A, a little from column B:0) Many, many mispent hours......
I think it came up as a damaged file for me too--but when I opened it, it was fine.
Kelly-
Missed your post there for a minute. Our poultry area is about 5 acres and filled with all kinds of other critters. I am not willing to have the fox come in: I am as yet unable to stop it. All our animals and we, ourselves, benefit from having the chickens underfoot and the chickens are as happy as chickens ever get. I could probably get a couple guard llamas and that would take care of the problem without my having to confine my birds, but they are expensive and I'd really rather not. I am trying to create an environment that foxes don't want to come to and a small enclosed area like a chicken coop is exactly the opposite. Our chicks area is about 500 square ft and more invitation to predators than I like to give. I was thinking some of the larger geese may not be as succeptable(can't spell it) to predation and would be more easily protected by their companions (goats horse cow). The whole point was could I protect them if I used them.
On the electric barrier, we have a 20 mile fencer which the fox just goes right through. Without a winter coat.
Cats- So if you could get your computer to tell my computer how to... can't figure how to get if open.
If that silly fox would just go after the bazillion frogs and rabbits we have all around us we'd all be happier.
Back to an earlier post or two, we've never lost a bird at night once they are roosting. I'd definitely have to put the geese to bed too, at least among the larger animals. The other animals raise an alarm at anything during the night precisely(I think anyway) because they can't see as well. The second they hear anything they all start calling and the dogs go running out howling to check it out. We also have a safety light out in front of everyone which helps.
Interesting side note, the roosters have started standing guard and watching for the fox while the hens are pecking away. DH has been staked out w/ a gun watching the whole thing and waiting.
well, make DH stay out there, take him sandsiches and coffee!
i would jump at a llama opportunity if i had the homestie you do. why don't you watch craigslist? i recently saw a PAIR, with female breed, for $300. some poeple can't afford to feed their animals anymore, good time for those who can to buy them.
i suppose the hens have become accustomed to , or enchanted by, the fox. chicnese geese are called watchdogs for a reason, if you find wsome older ones that need a home [you could pst a request somewhere in your area], they would conisder the fox completley strange, and call your dogs and DH attention...
best of luck. i have read about the floppy fence for coons and foxes...
Already there,TF! We are bringing our land back gradually and hopefully soon will have forage for things like llamas. If we get that and the money..... oooohboyoboyoboy!!
This fox thing has altered the behavior of ALL of our animals. They seem to be working together a bit more, hanging out together, and watching their surroundings more closely. Fascinating to see how much they do adapt. That's partly why I don't want to build my own chicken Bastille just yet. As long as we don't become Fat Foxy's Feeding Ground.
I would definitely need older geese. "Wanted, older geese, must like goats..."
grownut,
I'm getting a better picture. Do you have the time to string the electric wire barrier 2-3 times around the 5 acres vs the single strand you're working with now? The cost wouldn't be much since your equipment is good for 20 miles. I'd expect the additional wire would would significantly increase the effectiveness of the perimeter. It is clear to me now that your pasture fencing is not a predator barrier but was constructed to keep a larger animal from leaving your land. This is normal.
I too missed the point about wanting to be idealistic. I thought you wrote you were willing to wait for a the geese to sound an alarm when the fox intruded? Anyhow ... you have a dilemma no question. The shear size of your enclosure where the poultry could wander makes your job of keeping out predators really monumental. You've got at least 2X's more area than I have dedicated to nearly 100 birds. Your costs could easily be up around $4k if done the way I suggested + your time. I understand now that the chickens are wandering outside of the yard. They are reasonably safe in your yard that has limited fencing but that your pasture is fenced but not like a chicken enclosure. If your birds roam without a significant fence to keep out the fox ... there will likely be ever increasing predation. Welded or woven wire costs $1/ft. If you had the pasture surrounded by electricity a few inches off the ground .... digging might be eliminated and a second strand up toward the top might be enough. The cost would approach $2k with 6 ft woven wire around the pasture with the electricity as a 2nd barrier. Good luck.
Kelly in Moxee
Kelly-
We have two 3 acre pastures that have the 5 wire electric fencing and goats and horse inside. They both feed onto a converted 4 stall tractor shed which also houses the hen house. This is chicken central. They range all the way around our 2 acre yard and gardens and love going into the first or closer half of each of those pastures and do everyone a huge service by cleaning them up. The fox typically goes through 3 electric fences to get to the birds. Once the dogs realized the problem with the fox they started a very aggressive watch, and they have been looking for it in the woods as well. The few times when all our other critters have not bothered to raise an alarm (I actually saw this happen) foxy has managed to get close. Because I raised the alarm the dogs took off after and the hen got away. Since the first 3 days we have only (still too much but) lost 2 birds. They were newcomers, arrival scheduled before we HAD a fox problem and they wandered off by themselves. As it stands right now the dogs just need a little backup.
Everybody is trying to get rid of Foxy ASAP but nobody spends 24/7 out at the coop. Even if I confined them to some amazing fortress I believe the fox would just start digging/climbing though unless we spent more money than we have right now and kept the birds more confined than I like. The chickens' end of the shed is surrounded in concrete at the base and the other animals sleep around it so it is much harder to get to them at night. Any strange sound and everybody's up and the dogs come running. If a goose(properly introduced as a family 'baby' ) sounded any alarm the dogs would be out to them in a heartbeat. the biggest risk I can see would be passivity in the goose.
Foxes have really thick fur even in summer. If you are considering electric to deter them (or did I misunderstand somewhere) get waay more power than you think you will need.
Kelly
So glad I wandered over to this thread cause I had forgotten to shut the hen house door tonight and we do have foxes in this area. We've been sitting at the table at breakfast and watched a fox come trotting across our lawn right past our window. No idea we were watching it. The other night I forgot the door and was lucky nothing happened but I don't want to push my luck too far!
MollyD
I don't know anything about geese but I do have a red tick coon hound that keeps all my birds safe. We have coons in abundance, foxes, possum, coyotes and we have a problem with owls too when they are free ranging but my coon hound runs perimeter and beyond all night and we don't have a single problem with any critters. Those dogs are great for keeping out critters except of course when they drag up their dead prizes to show you!
DD and DH would get dogs every day and think nothing of it. We have 5 cats and 2 dogs now sooo..... Good to know though.
News!!! My Dad just drove past a RKed fox at the side of the road at our next door neighbor's. Hopefully that's at least half the problem. Can't imagine 2 mated pairs in the same territory and Foxy always runs towards this neighbor's farm.
grownut,
Do you think the fox just run through the fence ... willing to get a brief shock as they pass over/under or between wires? .... 5 wires is quite a few. Maybe the wires need to be closer together.
Kelly
hope that it was the fox who was harrassing you! We have a silver fox that runs through the upper field in the early mornings and for some reason(thankfully) it has never bothered the chickens. We have our chickens fairly close to the house and my dogs have the run of the pasture they are in. Maybe that's why.
we had a problem with our electric fence earlier this year. We ran 3 wires around one of the pastures and around the pig pen. It gave a slight jolt but not enough. So my DH added more ground rods and that did the trick.
Thick fur will help insulate the animal though. Our sheep could have cared less about the electric fence unless they happened to put their nose on it!!
Sue
Sue, I hope so too!
Kelly, the fence gets over grown really quickly this time of year. We add an extra line in fall about 1" from the ground. Think Foxy has found an uneven place where the ground dips. Our place is all hills and hummocks so...
grownut,
Those predators ... just like burglars .... take the easiest way to break in. Maybe you can go around and eliminate the big dips and/or alter the wire path to adjust for the dips. I sorta think you can stop the fox if the electricity is done perfectly.
Kelly
Did someone say serenade? OOOOOH...
Mother flipper flopper she sat up in bed, threw open the window and she stuck out her head.
She said "John! John! the grey goose is GONE! The fox is on the town-o!
Town-o!
Town-O!"
She said "John! John! the grey goose is GONE! The fox is on the town-o!"
Well John he went to the top of the hill where he blew his horn both loud and shrill
The fox, he said I better flee with my kill...they'll soon be on my trail-oh, trail-oh, trail-oh"
The fox, he said I better flee with my kill...they'll soon be on my trail-oh"
Well fox he came to his own den, therein were the little ones, eight, nine, ten.
They said "Daddy you better go back again, it must be a mighty fine town-oh, town-oh, town-oh"
They said "Daddy you better go back again, it must be a mighty fine town-oh"
Well the fox and his wife (without any strife) they cut up the goose with a fork and a knife.
They never had such a supper in their lives and the little ones chewed on the bones-oh, bones-oh bones-oh.
They never had such a supper in their lives and the little ones chewed on the bones-oh.
Thank you, Heidillyho! Someone quoted from that song awhile ago--but I've never heard the whole thing before!
I've been singing the last part of that all weekend. Couldn't remember the first(and knew a different version) Thanx! I think GG started it and then I couldn't stop myself singing!!!
My favorite verse is:
"Well he grabbed the gray goose by the neck, threw a couple of ducks across his back, he paid no mind to the "quack quack quack!" and the legs all dangling down-oh, down-oh, down-oh.
he paid no mind to the "quack quack quack!" and the legs all dangling down-oh.
My dad and I used to sing this together when I was a little girl. He used to sing it for my kids when he'd come visit. That was the tradition that when grandpa would come we'd have a bonfire and he'd play his guitar for the kids. I remember one time, my folks came to visit and he forgot his guitar (they lived seven hours away) and the kids were so disappointed the next morning he drove to Cedar Rapids to a music store to purchase a guitar. He left that one at my house "just in case" LOL! When he passed away my mom gave us his other guitar and it hangs in the living room now.
Great story and thanks again for the lyrics. I especially like the part that's not about my chickens. Do you remember...
The fox went out one winter's night, he played......til the morning light. Can't remember it to save me.
Oh yeah...It starts:
The fox went out on the chase one night, He prayed to the moon to give him light,
he had many a mile to go that night, before he reached the town-oh. town-oh, town-oh.
he had many a mile to go that night, before he reached the town-oh.
Well fox he came to a big old pen where the ducks and the geese were kept therein.
He said "A couple of you gonna' grease my chin, before I leave this town-oh, town-oh, town oh"
He said "A couple of you gonna' grease my chin, before I leave this town-oh"
He grabbed the grey goose by the neck, threw a couple of ducks across his back he paid no mind to the "Quack quack quack" and the legs all dangling down oh, down-oh, down-oh
He paid no mind to the "Quack quack quack" and the legs all dangling down oh.
Then the "mother flipper flopper"verse
Then the "john john"verse
Then the "I better flee with my kill" verse
Then the "Fox came to his own pen" verse
Then "Fox and his wife" verse.
voila!
GrannyGoody, I hope I got her name right, said something about putting up orange snow fence and it keeps animals out. She doesn't know why it works, but it works. Maybe they don't like orange?
Karen
Heidillyho- it's a beautiful thing...
LfJ- The orange fence is a version of floppy fencing on an above link. It won't deter anything determined to get in, that we can figure, but it may make the neighbors place easier to 'shop' If you recall she said she never knew why it worked for her and others here had absolutely no luck with it.