Built new pond in the spring, just about everything new, except some plants and the 3 6"gold fish and 15 2"-3" ones left from last year. Everything seem to be doing well and I started finding a fish dead every couple of days, these were the young ones. I have lost 6, I ran some tests, the nitrite & ammonia was OK the PH was 9 I put some PH down in Fri. night it was still high on Sun Morn. so I add some more. The salt level was a little low but I didn't realize how low, I tested it again this morning after I found another one dead. It was even lower, my test kit said I needed to add 1 1/4 cups salt per 100 gal. I have about 900 gals I got some salt today, came home and put 5 cups in I was afraid to put the 11 cups it said I should in. I can't imagine what is causing my fish to die, I didn't mind losing a few little ones but then I found one that had turned gold this morning. I begin to get scared I bought 2 new comets after I has lost 1 or 2 and I'm afraid I'll loose the comets and my older ones. How will I know If I need to and more salt or what to do? I only heard about the salt being a good thing to do from you guys on the forum, I need more help PLEASE!
Fish are dying
Hi Katherine,
Sorry you are losing fish :(
Did you inspect the fish that died? Looking for anything unusual, sores, spots, streaks?
Some dates could help, when did you finish the pond and add the fish? When did you start feeding? Also, how's that water look? Did you have a green period already? Is it cloudy? How's the aeration in the pond? First thing in the morning are they all at the surface? have they been sitting on the bottom?
BTW What salt does is promotes a slime coat on your fish which helps them fight infections and parasites.
What's going on in the filter? What kind of filter?
The dead fish look OK. I lost another today. The day after I put the 5 C. of salt in, I tested again and added 6 more cups of salt that I should of done in the first place. The salt is good now, I keep adding more PH down the last today, I have to get some more tomorrow I know I will need to add more. I don't know why the PH is up. I do have a out of the pond new filter for 2,000 gal, but it does need cleaning, I hadn't wanted to take out of the water the things I'd put in to help, but I guess that was a mistake. My water is pretty clear, when I got the salt I also got 4 algee eaters, I have quite a bit of algee build up and some string algee which I have been putting stuff in to take care of that. The aeration shuld be good enouth , I have a waterfall and a bell fountain & I top the water off as needed which isn't too often. The fish aren't eating as well as they have, they mostly feed at night I turn on the out side lights on abd they come up and eat my new comets were eating to night, my fish have always ate well at night. Thanks both of for yhe HELP. KW
Can you take a dead fish to the place where you bought them and have them scraped and looked at under the microscope? My retailer will do that maybe yours will too. It will help you figure out how to treat the fish.
Isn't this a lot of salt to add?
http://www.aquascienceresearch.com/APInfo/Salt.htm
I read that link and it confused me! Firstly, don't put table salt into your pond-Iodine in it (it was mentioned in that article). Go to http://www.koivet.com/ or http://www.bonniesplants.com/KoiCare.html to get the necessary treatment information that you can be assured will work. They helped me a lot during my recent fish crises-especially Bonnie. She emailed answers to my many questions on a very regular basis.
I saved this link for my own salt reference: http://koivetforum.com/index.php?topic
Ohhhh-BTW: Go to Menards and get their purest form of salt (98%-99% pure without additives) for water softener systems. Home Depot has a version as well but was less pure and more money. This is the same salt they sell for KOI care for a heck of a lot more money. If the fish are dying rapidly, add a lot of salt quickly (depending on your water volume). I have 5000 gallons and when my fish got sick I dumped in a whole bag of this water softner salt and continued to add more but at a slower rate. My fish perked up a lot with that treatment too bad I waited so long to act due to inexperience but I learned a lot.
mothermole - you are fast becoming an expert. All sound advice. It's good stuff even for experienced ponders to review. I just did a dumb rooky mistake of over cleaning my bio filter and nearly lost it. A couple of the koi started flashing. A check of the water parameters revealed nitrite, about 0.125. Low but 0 is the goal always. Upping the salt saved the day. The fish couldn't take up the nitrite. They stopped flashing. Leaving the filter alone brought the good bacteria. The nitrites are now 0 and I'm reminded that no matter how long you've been doing this you have to pay attention. And salt works.
Katherine, you are treating the tap water you are adding, aren't you? I'm assuming you know that plain tap water can kill fish very quickly... you have to add de-chlorinator (sorry if you already knew this but I feel for you and just wanted to make sure all the bases are covered...)
Brenda
I went today to get more PH down, where I got the pond salt and some more information. I don't have a fish place that has too much supplies, the best they had for PH-d (a16oz bottle) will only treat 1920gal, my pond is 900gal. The person that helped me did have some fish knowledge, she thinks I may have a fungus, so I also got Fungus Eliminator, when I got home tonight Iput some of the fungus elim. & 1/2 cup of the PH-d in. I also found one of my new comets dead he has a penny size sore on him. The other one is still alive but yesterday I noticed she was really fat looking like a preg. woman I know that may sound like a stupid remark but last year a had abig gold fish close to a foot long & she looked like that I gave her and 16 others away. I was glad we cought her because I didn't want all those babies. Anyway if this dosn't work she said she thought I should change the water, which is probably what I will do. My hubby sugested I test the tap water, I did & it was PH 7 so its OK, remember we have a well. THANKS again everybody for the help & advice. Katherine
Oh by the way I did clean my filter and add some fresh water Sunday 6-29. Katherine
The "fat" fish is not pregnancy. It is probably a symptom called "pine coning" which is the result of a disease called Dropsy. This is a common often fatal disease of goldfish.
This is from Yahoo "Answers" Although it is for goldfish kept in an aquarioum rtather than in an outdoor pond the same information appllies:
Dropsy
Common Name: Dropsy
Scientific Name: varies by cause
Description: Symptom of infection
Symptoms: body swelling, pineconing scales, lethargy, color loss, loss of appetite
Cause: bacterial, viral or parasitic
Medications: Maracyn, Maracyn-Two combined
Ingredients: Erythromycin, Minocycline
Notes: Dropsy is nearly always fatal and some aqurist may prefer to not treat it
More Information
Dropsy is one of the most deadly diseases plaguing aquarium fish. It is easily diagnosed when full body swelling or “pineconing” of the scales becomes evident. The pinecone effect occurs when fluids in the abdomen expand the body causing the scales to stick outward, resembling a pinecone when viewed from above. While it is slightly more treatable in goldfish it is much more difficult to successfully cure in tropical fish.
Dropsy in itself is not a disease but a symptom of one. Dropsy describes the severe organ failure leading to the swelling and pineconing. Part of the reason it is so difficult to treat is because several things including internal bacterial infections, viruses and parasitic infestations all of which have different methods for treatment, can cause it. Even if the source is determined it is not uncommon for the fish to later die from the irreversible effects of kidney failure or other organs. Once the disease has progressed to the point of abdominal swelling it is rarely treatable. Additional symptoms of Dropsy include lethargy, dulled color and loss of appetite. Dropsy is sometimes confused with the abdominal swelling associated with constipation. Viewing from above can identify differences. When Dropsy occurs the swelling shows obvious protrusions when looking down on the fish. Bloating caused by constipation is usually only obvious when viewing your fish from the side. Pineconing does not occur in a constipated betta.
Dropsy is not considered contagious but the infection that caused it could be so it is advised that sick fish be quarantined in a hospital tank. It is also wise to sanitize any shared equipment like nets, siphons or measuring spoons with a solution suitable for cleaning aquarium equipment.
Because the success rate is so low it is entirely up to you to treat this illness. In many cases the treatment is so potent that medicine can cause even more damage to the kidneys. If you are sure of the cause then treat accordingly using the proper fish medication. In most circumstances the cause is not obvious. In these cases it is recommended to use a broad-spectrum antibiotic or a combination of a gram-positive and gram-negative antibiotics. This will cover a variety of common bacterial infections. I recommend a combination of Mardel’s Maracyn and Maracyn-Two. Kanacyn is also a very good antibiotic but is quite strong and may or may not cause additional damage. If you fish is still eating it will be more effective to soak some pellet food in a mixture of tank water and antibiotic and feed it to him. This will allow the medicine to take effect more quickly. This can be done in addition to the package directions.
Whether or not you choose to treat Dropsy it is very important to make your fish as comfortable as possible. Lowing the tank water level and placing plants in the tank will allow him easier access to the surface for air. Some aquarists will fashion a sling out of netting and place it just below the water’s surface allowing the betta to always stay near his air supply. Many medications cause dissolved oxygen levels to drop so adding an air stone may help replace lost oxygen. Rapid gill movement and gasping are signs of depleted oxygen levels. To relieve the discomfort of bloating add 1/2 tsp aquarium salt per gallon of water. This will help to draw some of the fluids out and relieve pressure. Epsom salt baths are not recommended because of inconsistencies in their success rate. As always never use table salt in a fish tank. Aquarium salt can be purchased at your local fish store. Most importantly, keep your tank water clean and stable and your temperature at a comfortable 78˚F [25.5˚C].
Sorry to give you bad news.
snapple, thank you for the information. I haven't seen it this morning but I was afraid it wasn't pregnant. Katherine
Katherine-I have a few questions: Why are you using Ph Down? I did that a lot my first month with fish on some bad advice that Ph can't be a certain level. My Ph is 8 and I don't use any chemicals to lower it as long as my others levels are at 0 and my Kh is within the right range. Also, using algae products and other additives can mess up the ecosystem of your pond as well. I learned this when my fish were dying (although I didn't use any it is a common problem with new ponders-that was always one of the first questions asked by my vet and koivet and Bonniesplants). What exactly are your pond readings and are you using chemicals or test strips? I'm only asking to see if I can help you avoid a lot of "misinformation" that is out there that only confuses newbie pond owners. Have you gone over to koivet or bonniesplants for information and advice yet? I found them to be invaluable when I was trying to figure out what was going on with my fish.
I hope your fish problems have leveled off and they are on the mend.
Mothermole, I was trying to bring down the PH some because at the time that was the only thing that didn't seem to be normal. I think my PH has always been a little high but 9 seem extreme, anyway Tue. night was the last I added any PH-down. It came down some, I also added some "Fungus Eliminator" at the same time, I have not lost any more fish. I felt I had to give this a chance to work and hope it does. I don't know if you read what snapple sent me, she thought my fat fish has Dropsy, this Fungus Eliminator has that listed as one of the problems it will help. All the fish I lost except the last one looked OK or I couldn't tell by looking at them why they died. The last one was the other comet I bought when I got the fat one and it had a good size raw looking spot on it, since then I have seen another one with sore looking places. Their still hanging in there, the F.E. said I could add more in 4 days, if I don't loose anymore I guess I will follow up and keep my fingers crossed. By the way what does Kh stand for or mean? Thanks for trying to help me. Katherine
Thoses sores are called ulcers and that's what my fish had. The ulcers are a secondary infection to something else that caused them to get sick (and vulnerable to get the ulcers) int he first place. The ulcers need to be treated as well but the primary cause of infection needs to be addressed (it may be okay already with the salt and the other treatment you are doing.
I believe I understand how you are feeling-all these possibilities and even more treatments and still no one can agree on what is going on with the fish. The only way to determine what is going on is under a microscope. Next the ulcers need care. Do you have an isolation/quareenteen tank? If you can get the fish into one to treat them it would be helpful. Do you have a local pond club? If so, call them up and ask them for help-someone may live close to you and own a microscope and will help you. If I lived nearby I would be over at your house with my left over ulcer medicines in hand and my net to help you catch them. If you can transport the fish to another tank I would recommend doing a water change of approx. 40% to clean it out. Also, add aeration to help the fish with the oxygen.
Good luck nd hang in there!
Thanks mothermole, I have just been hanging in and letting things do whatever. Sun. 7-6 I changed about 30% of the water and added the rest of the Fungus Elimnator. One of by older fish developed a ulcer, I new it was dieing and I went ahead & took it out of the pond. I still have 2 of the oldest, 5 of the younger and the fat comet, along with 2 bulfrogs, 2 toad frogs and lots & lots of tadpoles. The fish have began to eat better now, especialy at night when I turn my flood lights on, I can see them better then. My water is clear and I hope things are going to be OK now, I think the comet isn't so fat as its just the type body it has . I read on other threads you have some more fish & yours are doing better, I'm glad for you mothermole. Katherine
Thanks Katherine. Sorry to hear you are going through all that I went through-isn't it frustrating? How is that fish with the ulcer doing? For my fish I started with a antibotic soak for two days and then took them to the vet for shots. I don't recall the name but will have a look later for the remaining medicine. I also used a topical cream from the vet on the ulcer which was difficult to keep on the fish but was beneficial. The products I use for bacteria are as follows: Micro-lift TheraP bacteria and I also bought the Micro-lift sludge away. I have a rock bottom and my water was always tea colored and hard to see through. I believe the original bacteria I used expired and wasn't working (I did leave it outside all winter . . .). I believe this caused my water problems and my fish deaths and secondary ulcer infections was the lack of viable bacteria in my pond and the lack of my knowledge and doing 20-30% water changes weekly. I also, do not follow the bacteria directions and go with my gut. When it rains I always add bacteria because of all the junk that gets into my pond (I have a 35 foot river with trees over it). Sometimes I add the bacteria prior to the rain and it works just as well. Eventually I may buy a pond vac but my husband will kill me if I spend any more money on the pond at this time. It does get expensive doesn't it?
Let me know how you are doing and how you are treating that one fish with the ulcer. I feel for you!
My DH asked me if I had considered adopting a foreign orphan and sending the child to Harvard as a cheaper alternative if I had this strong an urge to nuture something.
Snapple: Adopt me and send me the garden center . . . Your Husband has a point!
You girls are something else, thanks for the help and concern. I don't have that much invested in the sick and dying fish and they were frys last year, so I'm not that attached to them I just hate seeing them sick. The one with the ulcer was dying so I knew I couldn't help it, I took it out and let it die. I think I have plenty of good bacteria in my pond and it's clear, the fish have begun to race around and act like they feel better. I sure hope the worst is over and I have enough fish left to fill my pond with plenty of fry when they are well and old enough. My DH is great he just tries to support me in my effort, although if it were up to him we would'nt have a pond, but he did help when we redid it this spring. Katherine
Mothermole, you said earlier that your Kh was in the right range, what does Kh stand for I don't know about this? Katherine
It's complicated - but as far as koi go mine has always been very low with no problems. Our tap water is softened by the municiple treatment plant so Kh is around 2-3.
Kh is temporary water hardness. It is the carbonate buffering capacity of the water to withstand sudden Ph changes. If it's too low you could have a pH crash. A pH crash is a problem if it happens quickly and fish don't have time to adjust. The water becomes too acid. There are numerous pond water buffers available if the kH is low. The best and cheapest is plain old baking soda. Carbonate buffers raise the pond pH and help maintain a steady pH.
Since my pH stays stable at 7.8, even with a Kh of 3, I don't add a buffer. pH swings can occur rapidly from morning to night in a pond. It's not a good idea to start fooling around with changing water parameters unless your main water source is a serious problem. Rapid changes in water parameters cause more trouble then just letting fish adapt to a new but stable water environment. Each change, depending on what it is, also can make ammonia, nitrite or nitrate more or less toxic. You could easily fix one problem only to cause another. There is a lot of chemistry involved.
How do I maintain a stable pH with a low Kh? My water, when it comes over the water fall pours out with great force which oxygenates the water and drives off Co2. It's a mini Niagra!
Co2 will lower pH. Aquatic plants give off Co2 at night. Excessive rain can also lower pond pH.
So, I repeat, unless your main water supply is a serious problem, other than adding dechlorinator, I wouldn't try to change it. Koi can handle a pretty wide range of water conditions, providing that the water is well oxygenated, well filtered and stable.
This message was edited Jul 12, 2008 12:42 PM
Snapple, thanks so much for educating me on this. I had no idea it had to do with water hardness. Our well water was tested about 5yrs ago after we built our house, they told us we could soften it some. That was done by adding salt to the water but we couldn't tell much diference so we don't do it anymore. I said all that to let you know that by adding salt to your pond to de-stress your fish you are also softening your water. The first thing I did was to add salt to help my fish, I learned this from all of you, I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't found DG I have learned so much you would'nt believe. I agree that you are right about your fish getting adjusted to things and leave it alone if possiable. But when they start dying, you need to do something. Thanks again for filling me in on this. Katherine
When you start losing fish the temptation is to use the "kitchen sink" strategy. Throw everything you can think of at the problem but the kitchen sink in hopes that something will work. I've been there, with goldfish and with koi.
Right now I'm keeping an eye my small goldfish pond. I just lost a shubunkin to septicemia ( red streaks throughout the fins and on the body) which is a bacterial blood infection. Half the battle here is knowing what the problem is. At least I was able to figure that out.
But this is an 8yr old pond with water that tests perfect and no changes. Except that I have nearly all new fish. A heron cleaned it out about a month ago and I restocked from two different suppliers, one local, one internet. Since the new fish aren't wearing ID bracelets I don't where this one came from. I also overstocked. I wasn't worried about the filter keeping up because the original fish were good sized and the new arrivals would be much smaller. To replace the 6 lost fish I got 12.
I knew I would probably lose some. You always do. So now I'm sitting here concerned that whatever caused this fish to get septicemia will get the other fish too. The temptation to feed medicated food and treat the entire pond with Microbelift Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment or Microbelift TheraP is strong. Both are real good products. But, I'm going to hold off a bit. One more death if it is within the next few days, or three total over the next month will be the deciding factor. I should probably just go ahead and get the TheraP as it doesn't kill anything, just boots the good bacteria levels. To wait and see is really hard.
I may take out the plants and house them temporarily in a tub so that I can boost the salt to .02. That's a non toxic cheap strategy.
So Katherine, salting was a good approach. You also test to make sure that the level is correct. That's very important. Keep the level at .01 if you have plants, .02 if the plants can be sacrificed. Goldfish get stuff. They croak. It sucks. But if the water is good the strong will survive. Not so sure about the pond owner though. ;>) How are you doing now?
Well it's been two weeks since I lost any fish, they seem to be doing good. I'm just having to deal with string algee now. I still have my "fat" comet, I sure hope she has babies, she is so pretty. My son gave me some solar lights for my on my birthday, there are 3 of them and they look like rocks with lights in the center of them. They are really pretty. Thanks every one for all the help during my crises. Katherine
So glad to hear things are improving! Hooray!
Brenda
iron city Va? in texas our fish are subject to flukes, which can kill them. we also have so many snakes that bite the fish, killng them/ have u checked for ich? did u quarantine the new fish for awhile b4 adding them to the tank? a pond is very much like an indoor aquarium, with a lot more stuff to hurt them. there r plants that add oxygen n work indoor n out, luck!
ok, i am remiss in all that u have been thru/ we control string algae with barley straw/the water tends to dissolve it, and the string algae is less apt to take over. glad u fish r surviving!
Katherine: I have barley straw also in my filtration system. Do you have that in your? BTW: where is Iron City and what zone are you in?
zone 7, Tn. I have used barley liquid, I would think that is not as big a mess, I have a string algee treatment that works very well. I have used it for several years, I put some in yesterday and the water is clear today, I will put some more in Sat. as I am going to be out of town for several days. The fish came up and ate to night they seem good swimming all around, during the day they pretty much stay in the shade I don't usually see them. If I feed them during the day they don't eat it, maybe it is because of the heat, I think they eat algee, plants or whatever. I still have 8 plus 3 algee eaters and frogs, tadpoles. Katherine