Is this insects or disease? Mites?
What the............???
Boys! My first instinct tells me it's mites. But, I'm no expert on brugs. Hope others more experienced will chime in.
What are the conditions? Light, in ground, fertilizer, etc. What have you used on it for insecticide? Hard to know just from a pic of the leaf.
Looks like it was damaged long before it grew out..
Does not look like mites to me..
That's a relief, I'll hush. Thanks ZZ.
Kim
If it were the dreaded broadmites.. it wouldn't get that big.. Looks like it was stressed somehow when it was immature.
I'm not an expert either... by any means.. but I have dealt with broadmites and there are a lot of things that make it LOOK like broadmites, but it's not.
In my experience, a starving brug will look like it has broadmites.. That I can say for sure. If you root one in water and leave it in water for like a year.. LOL you will see what looks like broadmites.. or just put a brug in a pot and forget about it... don't feed it.. just water and water.. you will see what I'm talking about.. The leaves will crinkle, roll, grow close together and look terrible.
That's why just a pic of a leaf can't diagnose a problem without knowing all the conditions that lead up to that leaf looking like that.
I can say Lily... you are on the right track to have an instinct to suspect mites! LOL We get that way real fast being around brugs!
I can describe the leaves.
They are thickened. Crinkled, and also some are mishapen and deformed.
they are dark green. Some are cupping down. There are three branches on this brug. two of them have leaves like this. Even the new leaves are looking like this. The third branch appears normal. The leaves are not tiny but they are stunted. The plant is is good soil and other nearby brugs are fine. This plant get about 5 hours of sun a day- afternoon shade.
I don't have any way to post another photo with more leaves today.
Thanks for any help!
What are the little white dots? Looks like mites to me.
Linda
I agree with Joyce about broadmites not being the culprits here. Broadmites attack new leaves. The cuticle on the older leaves is usually too thick for a broadmites' sucking mouth to penetrate. The new leaves are stunted, small, deformed and pale green. AND they usually attack the underside of the leaves.
In her first post, Joyce asked for growing conditions, care given, insecticides, fertilizer. If you can provide as much information as possible, it would help. I would also ask how long you have had it, ask you to provide the plants recent history.
This brug is the worst with these symptoms but is not the only one with these symptoms. It is from a reputable brug nursery and came as a plant and it bloomed shortly after I received it and bloomed for three weeks. I know it could probably do a little better with another hour of sunlight but don''t think that's causing the weird leaves. Adjacent brugs are very healthy.
It was treated with Bayer Tree & Shrub systemic about 10 days ago. The older leaves are fine. But the newer leaves were starting to look weird when I applied the systemic- that's why I did it, to see if it would alleviate the problem. This systemic has worked on other brugs I applied it to, for regular spider mites.
I will have to post photos tomorrow of other infected plants and a larger overview photo of this brug.
Thanks for all your input. Have a nice weekend!
Brenda B
I really cannot give an educated guess since this is my first successful year ever for growing Brugmansias. However, my 'Cypress Gardens' has a few leaves like this, some are cupped and crinkled. Overall the plant looks fabulous, with a very small number of leaves similar to the photo in the first post. I actually think in my situation, I overfeed the brug. The fella is dark green right now and when I decided to weaken the fertilizer, I noticed no more crinkled, cupped, distorted leaves.
When I first saw these leaves, I immediately looked for thrips, aphids, and mites. Nothing at all. Then only thing I recalled doing different at the time was probably overfertilizing.
Bayer tree & shrub will not do anything for mites... Spider mites will make the leaves yellow and feel like sandpaper..
Is it planted in the ground or a pot? How many times have you fertilized it and with what?
Glen, what are you feeding with? It's really hard to over fertilize a brug... unless your mix was too strong..
I had several rooted cuttings I planted in the ground and I think I got a litle heavy handed with the Bayer systemic. The leaves came out like that too. It took a while but all the new leaves are fine now. I think I just over dosed it with the Bayer :(
ZZ
Yes, I came to that conclusion when I read the ingredients again on the bottle of the Tree & Shrub systemic- not for mites. So, for now, I will stick with my AVID, and some other insecticides for mites.
Fish- I may have overdone on the systemic. And we have had very little rain to wash it out of the soil. All the brugs so affected are in the ground.
My potted brugs have very obvious spider mites, if they are infected at all. Less than 3 % of my brugs. This is such a balancing act, to know what to use when. The green cats are showing up now, and in some areas of my garden, the slugs are having a heyday with my brugs. For that, I will try what we use for hostas and slugs- 10% solution of none-detergent ammonia sprayed on the ground and on the mulch, not directly on the plant.
More nitrogen for the brugs.
Glen74, I will hold off doing anything for a week. The leaves that grew out on all the affected plants were normal a month ago, so something happened in the last month- did I happen to my poor brugs???
My 2 cents (.0154 today) LOL I have been trying to solve the crinkled leaf problem. My project and it appears to be working was poisoning the nematodes. Seem a good dose of Sevin on the ground is one of the few effective treatments. I have seen no conversations on Nematodes but I have parasitic ones that attack the roots. Something to think about. It cured a bunch of my plants crinkled leaves. I am one week into the treatment.
Brenda, you have dmail. I have 6 or 7 that are doing the same thing. I have gone over every one with a jewlers lope and not a bug in sight. Some of my leaves are hanging doen and I thought they had gone linp, but they are nice and crisp, just all pointing toward the ground.
Brenda, I am checking, but I have been advised this could be a change in fertilizer or a PH problem. i am flusing all of my affected plants to see if this helps.
jpotts- that is interesting about the nematodes and no, no one has mentioned that. Nematodes are a big problem with lots of plants, and I grow hostas, which are suceptible. So, what made you think you have nematodes? Did you look at the roots of your plant(s)???
Brenda, all the effected plants are in the ground, altho the soil they arrived in is still around the roots. Are all yours in pots? So, I can do as good a flushing as possible in the soil with water and see if that helps ...................... and I take that back, one brug is in a pot and does not appear to have symptoms. But I will flush that one too. Thanks for your help!!
Brenda B
I had hit mine with Forbid and Avid still had some leaf crinkle. I have been concentrating on the soil. My plants do well in pots until summer. When you put a plant in the ground it should take off. Right ???? Well not here they sulk for months. I had to pitch all my roses due to nematodes. I tried the beneficial nematodes. Not much help. So I decided to try to kill some off. Seven is as toxic to them as anything available. So I poured 10 lbs around about half of the plants. They perked up. They congregate to where the moisture is. Plus it wipes out any other soil predator's like beetles etc. I am so careful with what I use. I have several hundred tree frogs and a few hundred toads.
Nematodes we all have them. Just what concentrations and population is the key. Without a soil test for them (harmful) there is no positive way except to try a few plants and see what happens. There is a lot going on in the soil. To me roots are the key to survival. The small tender feeder roots are the most vulnerable. A root attack will crinkle the new growth and stunt it.
Where I live you have to be way ahead of the parasites or they will kill everything real fast. No freezes, 90%+ humidity, 11 month growing season and 6 months+ of 90+ degree weather. Not a gardeners paradise. I am working on it.
Brenda I am a mitaphobe. So 90% of the time they are the problem they other 10% is something else. My 10% is nematodes and different soil fungus. I am at constant battle with the enemies.
Jim
All of my affected plants are in a 50/50 mix of promix and worm compost. I have not given them anything my other plants have not had.
New leaves on these are coming in yellow and wrinkled. Makes me wonder if they are not liking the new mix since the ones still in the soil in which I recieved them are doing just fine. No leaf problems so I know it is not insects.Other then the repotting in my soil mix, nothing different has been done. When I first noticed this I thought it was just transplant shock, but it just keeps getting worse. I am going to go out and repot a few and see what happens.
Jim
I don't like poisons but I could try sevin- are you using liquid that you mix up???
How long before you noticed a difference? Brugs grow so quickly, could show fairly fast. Were all the brugs in an area infected or was it here and there, with some brugs appearing to be resistant?
BTW, they were in the roots- did you see them? If so, can you describe what you saw?
thanks for any answers you can give.
Brenda, dmailed you!
Do you think planting marigolds would help? That's why they plant marigolds around tomato plants..(to keep nematodes away) and brugs are a cousin of the tomato.. so might make sense?
You can pull up a few plants and look for the knots. There are many types of nematodes all are microscopic. Some leave knots some don't.
I used powder the 1st time. Now I bought some liquid. I like to target only the plants soil. Which ever water them in.
Smaller plants seem more effected.
Yes some brugs are resistant to them.
It took only a week and new growth is full and not crinkled.
You cannot see nematodes without a microscope even then unless you want to isolate and identify the species it is very hard.
I do understand about poisons. Forbid and Avid are low toxic and mite specific. This is the only other poison I have used.
Try it if it works you have identified your cause. I try a lot of things, experiment and research. Your problem could be a bunch of things. Nobody has been thinking nematodes. A little research and they are responsible for all sort of plant ailments.
Sevin is a neurotoxin. It only last 3 weeks in the soil. It does not kill the nematodes but stops them from feeding. A second dose is necessary to starve them to death. There are other items but I prefer the least toxic. We also have friends who live in the soil.
Hope I answered your questions, If not email me.
Jim
http://www.cotton.org/tech/pest/nematode/distributions.cfm?state=05
Yes marigolds help. When I was reading up on nematodes they used a certain variety of marigold. It was a bunch of them to control nematodes.
I believe the Chrysanthemum is a good choice across the board. There has been some speculation as to the use of sugar or molasses it creates some type of fungi that is poisonous to nematodes. What works for me may not be right for you.
I garden where plants should not grow.
http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/AgroBio/ab360-02e.htm
This message was edited Jun 23, 2008 11:14 PM
Here is a photo of the growing tip or one branch. The stunted/deformed growth is only on branches carried over from last year, old growth. A new growth shoot looks perfectly normal and unaffected so far, as you can see in the top of the photo.
Jim, thanks for all that information. You are right, this is the first I have heard of the possibility of nematodes, even tho they are so prevelant in our plants and soils. I would not like to risk the plant so infected right now, as it is special and my duplicate plants are of course fine! We call those companion plants pyrethrum daisies. I will do this next year. I know that marigolds are planted around tomatoes and peppers to attract spider mites ........... and they do! So, I will use some liquid sevin- when do you apply the second dose?
All of my affected plants are in pots so nemetodes are mot the problem. I have over 100 pots of brugs. The only ones affected are ones I bought this spring and repotted. I was wondering if I could have gotten a bad bags of compost since all where potted from the same bad.
I have repotted 4, flushed 4 and am leaving the other 4 to watch. I still have 6 in the origanal pots they where bought in. I am going to repot some of them today to see what happens.
One growers suggested over fertilization, but they all get fed the same.
I haven't heard anyone mention the word virus. Any or all of the plants described above could be experiencing the effects of a virus that was lying dormant in the plant until some event (transplanting,change in weather, being brought out of dormancy...etc) caused the virus to become active.
A perfectly healthy looking plant can harbor a virus that rears it's ugly head when stress is introduced. Some plants recover and some don't. You may have to ride this one out. Definitely isolate the plant and try to stabilize it's environment.
This message was edited Jun 24, 2008 9:09 AM
It could be zinc defiency.
If you supåply zinc enough the problem is that the soil Ph is too high (calcareous soil).
If the Ph is okay, it could also be zinc defiency resulting from excess of phosphorous. Too much phosphoruous in a plant will disturb the sugar (starch) metabolism. That is that the plant are unable to convert starch into energy and growth. In stead of beeing free flowing the sugars are bound into some leaf cells, while it is not present in others. That could explain, why some parts of the leaves are swelling up, while other appeas normal or deficient.
If it is the last thing the growth rate of the new growth is or will become very slow.
The solution here is to cut down on the phosphorous.
If this nutrient is not involved and it is pure zinc defiency, then the solution is to lower the Ph a bit and then everything will turn back to normal or optimal.
Tonny
ZZsBabiez wrote: "Glen, what are you feeding with? It's really hard to over fertilize a brug... unless your mix was too strong.. "
I use Miracle-Gro right now. But yes, that's what I meant. I was mixing too strong. I burned my begonias and a colocasia as well. Seems the bucket I was using was smaller than I thought.
Tonny has given us the most informative info. on the fertlizers' toxicity and plant's physiology quick course. Many thanks, Tonny.
Kim
Wow.. see? That is totally different than what I thought Brenda.. One branch? Old growth? what does the branch look like? Are there any indications it's damaged? I don't know.. I'd hack that thing off so quick it'd make your head spin.. then I'd bleach and sterilize everything. LOL Not making light of your problem.. Just my usual attempt to create a giggle..
I would think if it were Ph, the entire plant would be affected.?? One branch? doesn't make sense. This particular one is over my head. I would still cut it off.. but that's just me..
Yes Kim.. Tonny had the most wonderful thread about Ph here.. real good info.. !! http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/691931/
edited to ask a question.
Brenda.. can you see a hole in the wood or a nest in the curled up leaves at the top? Can you pick them open and look? I've had some kind of boring insect..(caterpillar) completely top a brug and it took a while for the new growth to come out okay. I have no pics.. but it happened more than once. Deep between the leaves of the new growth I found a "compartment" the worm had created by eating it out.. I'm curious.. this is a brain twister!
This message was edited Jun 24, 2008 3:06 PM
I have repotted several of these in pro mix, going to see what happens. I flushed 4 others, going to leave the last three alone. Now to see who responds.
I know it is a soil problem, too much something, or not enough something, now to find out what something is. The ones that I have not repotted are fine, they are getting the same fertilizer. It has to be my soil mix. That is the only thing or the other plants would be acting the same. My mix is light, drains well so it is not moisture. I am wondering if I got a bad bag of pro mix or worm compost. These plants where all potted from the same batch of mix.
Great thread! Thanks everyone! I think I got a bad bag last year. Luckily, I didn't plant brugs or hibiscus with it. I tried to grow begonia's and coleus. They finally all died.. By the end of summer, I'd concluded it HAD to be the pro mix. I usually use MG potting mix. I was on the way home, so I got the Pro Mix at a nursery, they didn't carry MG. Many years before I have grown a mix of begonias and coleus in that same spot, 1 pot on each side of the steps, may be a different color or kind of mixture but always begonia's and coleus... the winter before I snagged a deal on some very nice pots, big pots (they had a guarantee, lol!). Almost all the pro mix went into the 2 big guaranteed pots. With what I had left, I mixed with MG and I don't remember what I used the MG/Pro mix on, but by mixing with the MG, it must have diluted whatever the problem was, I noticed no other unusual plant behavior last year (except for aphids last winter)... the begonia/coleus pots were the REAL disappointment, right in the front and all. People would compliment me on them in years before...I replanted some plants, they croaked, too. I still haven't planted them this year, mostly due to Spring and me running behind. When raglady said Pro Mix, the light bulb came on... I didn't notice the Pro Mix smelling funny... it didn't have as much perilite as I'm used to seeing but I did like look of the rest of the mix.
Yes we do think that is our problem. i am sure it is not the worm compost since it all came from the same 2 ton delivery. I will get everything repotted tomorrow. Hope this solves my probles.
Thanks everyone your your support.
I systematically went through all items. Finally I was at nematodes. Brugs usually grow so fast that many ailments are not apparent. Which is good thing. Mine compete for water with the oaks trees. Their growth slows way down in the summer. It is just too hot for them. Summer is when all the problems come to the surface. I was very pleased to have solved my crinkle problem. I had tried a expensive liquid commercial nursery formula with all the macros, fungicide, mite control, boron,zinc,copper, Magnesium sulfate, sulfur, ph tests at different locations etc.......
So I grab a handful of soil. Wow it is alive. Nematodes ???? Seven dust ??? Seems it stuns them where they cannot feed for 3 weeks. Not much damage done to the soil if there is no improvement. Seems like a good place to start if it is a below the ground problem. IMHO.
If it works then hit them again in 3 weeks and complete the job. Others will move in but it is kind of like a mite problem in the South all you can do is treat when needed. One more tool for the gardeners tool box. Sevin dust or liquid is real cheap also. I am very stingy with chemicals as I garden over my water supply.
Jim
Sevin is supposed to kill grasshoppers. Does it have to come in direct contact with the grasshoppers for it to work? Does it harm frogs and toads?
I would say yes to frog and toads. I used it direct to soil and deep watered. I watered the area first at night to make sure no one was sleeping. My frogs and toads keep the hoppers in line. I love my frogs more than my brugs. You have to be very careful or they will all disappear. Mantis are good for hoppers.
Jim
I have a sanguina that crinkles like that from fertilizer. It HATES worm casings,and fish emulsion. It just wants water water water. If i fertilize at all..it crinkles up,turns yellow and drops leaves.It hates fertilizer. Just saying!
A.
PS i love that you love your frogs jpotts
Brenda
If you have come to the conclusion that it is the soil they were planted in then that could be the problem. My dilemma is that there is that one shoot that looks healthy as heck.
Jim, are some of your brugs more susceptible to nematodes? I did ask but can't remember if you said that ajacent plants are also infected, because mine are not. This plant is surrounded by several other brugs and they are growing normally.
What kind of virus could this be, if it is one? That new shoot may look healthy just because it has not been around long enough to show symptoms yet!
Thanks for all the input but I'm kind torn about which way to go with this.
I am still interested in this.. but if it were a virus.. wouldn't the whole plant be affected? Did you check real close in the new growth and the stem for a hole?
Yes some brugs are resistant. We are in a drought and the brugs get water frequently and I live on sandy soil. Nematodes cannot survive without water so they gravitate to the brugs.
I just wanted the idea to percolate around a little. The topic did draw out some of the great brug growers and their thoughts. I test a lot of things after researching them. Only when I have a real dramatic result do I ever mention them as my ideas are controversial. I do look beyond the normal scope of gardening. LOL
Jim