Please look at this fish-what is this "bruise and spot"?

See attached photo of a fish that WAS all white with a yellow head 10 days ago but now has a brownish bruise and a few black flecks. Please read my posts about the fish crises at my house and then feel free to comment PLEASE!

Copied and pasted from Bonnies Forum . . .


Fish deaths and treatment options
by Mothermole on Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:48 pm

New pond person here. 4500 gallons, rock bottom no drain (with a 30 foot river and waterfall) with 13 small koi and my water is turned over 3 times an hour (if I remember that correctly). Saturday, two of my fish died within hours of one another. I took them to my pond retailer (reliable professional source but unfortunately the man I usually speak with is not in work as his father is dying so I spoke with the young assistant and noted some incorrect information) and the fish had the fish scraped and looked under the microscope. The (death occurred a few hours prior to scope)fish had fungus and chilodonella (I also looked at the slide and compared it to the photos as well to compare and b sure that the dx was correct). My pond levels were 0 on everything except Ph was 8.0 and the salt level was very minimal (a few weeks ago a fish was flashing and I treated it with salt for 10 days and did frequent water changes and had a lot of rain that pretty much reduced the salt.) Immediately I removed 1/3 of the water, added oxygen and when I refilled the pond I added the salt. Initially the salt reading on the electronic salt device read .46 ppt and I was worried I put too much salt in the pond. Well it rained a lot and the salt level is now .4 ppt. It is still raining on and off and I would presume that salt level is even a little lower. There have been no more deaths in the pond since yesterday morning but since they are new and skittish fish and I have the bubblers going I can't see any of them in the pond. I removed about another 800 more gallons of water tonight and then it started raining and lightening and I was back indoors. Automatic refill on pond and salt should be a little lower than .4ppt.

Other information worth noting, pond was very murky this past week with all the rain and I could hardly see into it (fine particles swirling around). I don't have much in the way of algae as I have a ton of plants (and yes I removed them for the salt treatment-ugh). Also, I am in the Chicagoland area and the weather has been very unpredictable. This week the weather finally was warm and the pond temperature was in the low 70's to the mid 70's for the first time with the fish in it. The fish swam around the most they ever did since I purchased them. Also, I suspect my young son has been secretly feeding the fish. I noticed fish food in the skimmer (but pond levels were all good). Pond had a pondish smell to it also (not very strong but the smell was there none the less).

So here are my questions:
1. How high is too high for the salt (I am worried and would change out some of the water to get that number into range)?
2. Young assistant advised me to put ProForm-C and Praziquantel (but when I got home and read the packaging it advises against adding this mixture in with salt treatments, so I didn't add it in thinking maybe the kid wanted me to throw everything at the fish including the kitchen sink so that they survive because he was inexperienced-am I correct?
3. Should I reduce salt and add the ProForm-C and Praziquantel to finish the treatments? If so, what is the protocol?
4. Should I be feeding the fish medicated koi food?
5. What are my next steps in terms of additional salting /water changes and additional treatments and length of time for the salt treatment.
5. What level of salt should my pond be at when fish are otherwise happy and healthy?

Thank you in advance.
Mothermole
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Re: Fish deaths and treatment options
by Bonnie on Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:50 am

"killer Don" otherwise known as chilodonella is fairly common coming out of winter and can be the reason for massive die offs in the spring.

Some strains of it will die at .3 salt, other strains will not. It kills fish very fast so if there have been no more fish deaths in the past few days your level of salt may have knocked it out.

Tetrahyma looks very similar under a scope to chilodonella so it takes a very experienced eye to know the difference. Tetrahyma does not kill unless there are there in huge numbers..and it is usually associated with dirty ponds.

You can take the level of salt to .6 as long as you do it very slowly. One can go from 0 to .3 very quickly but after that it should not be raised more than .1 over 24 hours. When dealing with costia, I have gone all the way to .8 You can not keep the.8 level for more than a few days! Costia is a real bugger and very hard to get rid of and it too kills very fast. Many experts have missed it (myself included) because it is THE smallest of all parasites that attack fish. And most of the strains of costia I have seen are very salt resistant. If going above .3 salt one must make sure there is massive amounts of oxygen and water circulation in the pond!

Salt and formaldehyde (one ingredient in Proform C) are NOT compatible and one must make sure that the salt level is less than .1 when using.

They are recommending an aggressive approach in treating in parasites, and I do not have a problem with it except if the person is very qualified with the scope and knows what they are doing, I would not recommend the "shot gun approach"

I do recommend a shot gun approach here because I don't know what the person is dealing with. But if I have examined the fish and scoped it, and know what I am dealing with, I may recommend a product for what I saw in the biopsies.

Prazi kills flukes (Proform C does not touch them) and if he did not see flukes there would be no reason to use it. Flukes are very easy to spot under a scope.

Hope this helps and am looking forward to your reply

Bonnie

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Re: Fish deaths and treatment options
by Mothermole on Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:56 am

Thank you so much for your response. The pond salt is now at .27 (ton of rain last night). I am going to continue to drain the pond down to reduce salt so I can add the Proform stuff. I am not very confident in this young guys opinion but I did look into the microscope myself and saw what appeared to be fungus and the "DON". I did not see flukes. My question is after I put in the proform c do I need to leave it in a special length of time and then drain it down with water changes? OR should I just follow the directions on the bottle?

Thanks again for your help!
Mothermole
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Re: Fish deaths and treatment options
by Bonnie on Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:33 am

There are extensive directions, step by step on my web site. Click koi care and then parasite treatment

Be sure to watch the pH and KH when there is a lot of rain and rain in most parts of the country is "acidic". Just for kicks, run tests on rain water from a rain gage

Bonnie

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Re: Fish deaths and treatment options
by Mothermole on Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:03 pm

I am following up with my posts of last week and my outcomes. I treated the pond with salt as high as .5 and did frequent water changes. Salt was at .4-.5 for 3 days and then was lowered slowly because of lots of rain. I used aeration and changed about 30-50% of the water out each day until water clear (very murky due to rain). Finally I saw the fish and the salt was low enough for Proform C which I applied tonight after I took all filtration out. I noticed fish were spunky and active but also that two fish had "bruises" and black speck marks on their bodies that weren't there two weeks ago. See photo bucket

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/mothermole/

What is that-is this from the treatment with the salt and they are improving or are they still very sick? I would appreciate any and all comments on what this is on my fish and if I am going about the treatment appropriately?

Thank you in advance!
Mothermole
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Re: Fish deaths and treatment options
by Bonnie on Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:30 am

The link does not work.......

Not sure why you took the filter media out but it needs to be treated to. And Proform C is safe for the biofilter.

You will be dealing with a whole new set of problems if you don't have a biofilter working....

Bonnie

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Re: Fish deaths and treatment options
by Mothermole on Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:05 pm

I put in praziquantel and Proform C and was told by pond resource to remove filter media-is this incorrect? I get so frustrated with all the misinformation out there regarding ponds. Send me your direct email and I will send my photos directly to you -maybe you can post. Fish all seem happy and healthy and lively!
Mothermole
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Mothermole, there has to be a Vet in your area to take this fish too.

Get some tricide neo and treat it,

Just wanted to post and say I did have a vet over to the house( - after I did a proform treatment and they all started to crash). The primary infection to the ulcers was taken care of but most of the fish were already at a point too far to help. I have lost 11 fish as of tonight and yes we are doing the antibiotics and it looks like 3 will make it through the storm. Absolutely heart breaking but I have learned a lot and have found some excellent resources locally to consult with when I am ready to replace some fish. It's very difficult to even think that far ahead while I am nursing three fish and don't know for sure what the outcomes will be for them. My two largest fish and my very first fish are the only ones left (10"-14" range in size). The butterfly koi seemed the most vulnerable and died first. Anyway, I am very down about this whole situation and mentally and physically exhausted.

I would destroy the fish and start anew...

Rich,

I have to ask, why destroy the fish? She has come this far with them. If she can cure them, they have a long summer ahead of them to heal and grow strong for the winter.

Carolyn

Well, I would have to if I was in this situation. Because I can't have infected koi around... Being a breeder I have other rules.
Lol, I'll shut up now XD =p

mothermole - I can understand your working so hard to save your fish. They are not just sales numbers. They represent much more to ponders than just dollars and cents. I wish you the best. It probably isn't much consolation right now but please give yourself some credit for all your exhaustive efforts. Everybody loses fish. It happens sometimes in spite of our best efforts. I had a double heron attack last week that I won't bother to detail here. I lost 6 - 7 yr. old gold fish, one tiny new koi and have two wounded koi. Last year I inexpilcably lost my oldest and favorite koi - fine for the morning feeding - dead at 6:00pm. That's all, just one koi, but it left me shaken for the rest of the season wondering who might be next. So, I understand a lot of what you're feeling. Please, take a breath and step back. You've done all anyone could do. There will be better days at the pond.

laserkoi: Please, losing koi is no LOL matter to mothermole or most of the other ponders on this forum. I understand that you have to make practical business decisions about your koi. Backyard ponders are coming from an entirely different place. Cut us some slack.

Thanks Snapple for your kind words. My three are still doing well but my vet tells me that they are not out of the woods just because they are eating and moving about in quaranteen. He tells me that I could still lose one or all of them in the next 7-10 days. Breathing doesn't come about easily in this situation.

BTW Laserkoi-Your remark to "destroy" them all is very insensitive to me as well as my kids who have named these fish and think of them as pets and part of our family. Your comment immediately brought to my mind images of "puppy mills" and insensitive breeding. Whilst breeding koi is your business and "destroying" (killing) sick koi is the norm in your business you might consider who your audience is on DavesGarden. We are your potential customers, we are the adopters, we are the ones who get attached and have an emotional relationship with the fish you breed. Like Snapple said, this is not a "laugh our loud" appropriate time. That was very hurtful to read.

Rich,

I do understand from a business perspective, however, I did think it was harsh for Mothermole to hear that.

Mothermole - we had ulcer disease on 2 separate ocassions with a spring start up. The first time, 5-6 years ago, we were relatively new to ponding and really did not have a lot of experience. Our favorite fish had saproglena (sp?) and the dreaded ulcers. Most people that we had any discussions with thought that our fish was a goner.

The instructions we had received included salt baths (that was scarey), Proform C, water exchanges in the pond as per the instructions on Proform C, and antibiotic foods. By the time the algae strips of Saproglena had finally been shed from my kois body, she was open all the way down to the muscle - you could see the grains in the open areas of her where the skin had come off.

She took all Summer to heal and grow strong, which she did do. - I have a picture below of her that I took last Summer (I am at work and most of my pics are home). She is the big white one in the center - My daughter named her 7 years ago when we first got her as 'General Chow' - her name has since been shortened to 'The General'.

Anyway, the moral to my story is don't give up. Never give up. We have had The General since our very first batch of fish 7-8 years, and 3 ponds ago. She will always have a warm spot in our hearts. Yes, she is not a special breed or anything, but she is very special to us.

The second time we had the ulcers, I was able to get it very early - it was this past Spring when we started up. I did give them all a course of Triple antibiotic food and elevated the salt levels in my pond. This took care of the ulcer problem for this year.

Best of luck to you. Rich, I know you meant no harm, but those of us that are not in business do get attached to our fish.

MM - keep us informed and don't give up hope!

Best wishes,
Carolyn

Best of luck nursing your fish back to health, mothermole. I've only had my fish for about a month and have already gotten attatched. I can't imagine losing so many that you've had so long:(

MM, so sorry for you and your kids to have to go thru that.

Mothermole, I also wanted to chime in here and say I am very sorry for your loss, and truly hope your remaining fish pull through. My fish are a part of my family as well, and when I recently lost one to a raccoon attack I was heartbroken. Hang in there, okay?

Thanks everyone for your kind words. My three are still alive but one isn't doing as well as the others. Her ulcer is bigger and I can catch her with my hands easily. They all recvd shots today and I had additionally slides made to make sure everything has been treated and gone and all slides were clean which is good to know.

evesta: I am a new ponder too! My pond was completed this past December and since I live in a cold climate I didn't add fish until April of this year. Of the three fish left, two are my very first two adopted and one is the last one I adopted about 14 days ago (he doesn't seem to be sick with anything). All were my largest and the vet said that this is because they have the most immunity to fight off disease and infection because of their age. I have learned a lot and now know more about preventative care and have a stock of medicines for the future. The only thing I haven't purchased yet is a microscope and only because of the costs and the time I need to investigate what kind I should buy so that I don't buy something that won't work that well.

Anyway, I have to go and take care of other things in my house and with my family that I have neglected since my fish crisis. I will keep you posted on what happens.

lol, sorry, wish you the best of luck.

It is amazing how quickly they become your little buddies:) All my fish, from the feeders to the koi have been named and every morning I count them. If I can't find one right away I get panicked!

I need to read up on meds and have some on hand just in case. What basics would you suggest?

Again, sorry for your loss.

You know I am trying to determine that exactly without stocking everything known to mankind. LaserKoi this is your business as a breeder-what do you recommend that we koi pet lovers stock in their Koi Medicine cabinet and which meds expire quickly? (this is your chance to redeem yourself after the "destroy" the fish and start over again comment . . . .LOL). I'm in a much better place now and not so close to tears about the fish as I was at Midnight this morning

MM, so sorry for your losses. We, too, are very attached to our fish, as much as any other pet.

Brenda