I'm very confused. Probably because I want to start everything at once. My goals: prepare 1 1/2 acres to sow grass seed this fall; prepare planting areas (veggies & flower beds) to be workable this coming spring (clay everything now, some gypsum & lime applied, but that's a slow process). For my flowers I have amended the soil some but now the roots are smothering/drowning in clay). I'm hoping if I see something you're doing that works I'll find something I think I could do. I'm not creative, ingenius or crafty. I need it all spelled out & I'm feeling overwhelmed right now.
I have access to newspaper, some cardboard. We have a truck, a tractor w/backhoe/tiller. A few things considered green (veggie trimmings & weeds).
No manure, but I can buy the bags of manure/humus mixed or manure alone. No wood chips or sawdust around.
Things I don't get: The different types of "meal" you'd buy, bone or blood?; peat moss, do you buy the brand or any type or can/should you get it in bulk?
All kinds of composting talked about here: Bokashi, vermi, lasagne, tumblers & wooden bins. Help me decide what I can do. I can't lift over 50 lbs & not suppose to be lifting that, but you know how that goes.
I'm looking at spending $300; 400 if I need to. How can I get the most bang (physically & financially) within this $$ range & meet my goals? Where would you start? Thanks,
davis
would u show pic of your compost areas
Davis, do you have farms in your area (I'm afraid I have *no* idea where Disputanta is, is it rural?)? You can cut your costs first off by locating farmers with cows, goats, chickens or any other herbivore. Horse stables, too, and they are often found in suburban areas, as well. Most of them are more than happy to get rid of a load or two of manure. Buying it is costly and you can't always be terribly sure of what you're getting. Many farmers even load up your truck if you help them out with the gas/diesel.
Please try to avoid buying peat moss. Not only is it also very expensive, but it really is getting to be an issue. For as large scale of an operation as you're speaking of, I'd substitute other "browns" - leaves, shredded paper, straw (only because you're talking about next spring - that will give it lots of time to break down).
A little more info could help - what part are you doing garden as opposed to grass? Are raised beds an option? They really are easiest if you are not doing something huge, or if you are doing a number of beds. I don't recommend planting any more grass than absolutely necessary - the more you plant, the more you have to maintain, especially from seed, it can be pretty time/ resource consuming to get it to grow up - and then you just have to go out there and cut it back again!
From what you're describing you're best bet is to use a combination of setting up lasanga and doing compost. This is my grow your own trash bag collection. We've already worked in a lot of the grass and leaves that were in the bags, but we have a friend who does organic landscaping and provides us with a steady stream of material. DH is beginning to fuss a bit, since we're having trouble keeping up. I'm not much help right now, I'm dealing with a flare up of an old back injury so I can't lift anything. I think I'm 25 in my head, but the bod ain't cooperating!
You can build you compost with almost all free materials. I used coir as a substitute for peat moss for my latest lasanga beds. Lots of wet shredded newspaper and compost, I add a bit of pelletized lime and a couple of cups of bone meal in the layers, we have very alkaline soil here, so every little bit of lime helps.
You also might want to check with your local landfill. We can get both mulch and compost free as part of our recycling program.
This is a bed of finished compost, we had it in the pallets. Once it was finished, DH moved the pallets to another area and we started all over again.
Great ideas!
~Pagancat~ I'm checking manure possibilities now. Going to where the locals hang out this weekend & ask around, hopefully that will score me some places to check. Ok, no peat moss, I'll go for the coir & see if I can order online. Need to make a list of "brown" or I won't remember it. Ya know, I've always wanted to try raised beds but always ?? if perennials would have plenty of room for their roots. How deep would I need to make the beds? Thanks for the help.
~doccat~ I'm convinced I can do lasagna. Just need to find the right things. Your pics were what I needed to visualize, the compost area. I've started a small compost "area", on the ground. Not very attractive. Love, love, love the pallets bins you have. I guess 2 would do me to start. How big are they? should I start the bin where I want to spread it, when possible? If I make mine roughly the size of yours how much lime would I need, to start? You can't throw tons of it in can you? The bone meal is expensive, tell me the best (cheapest) way to buy. If I got something large I can take it out in smaller quantities, is that what you were hinting at to save my back? So sorry to hear about yours. Once you mess your back up, life just isn't as easy anymore, is it? Hope yours gets better real soon.
I wouldn't have thought about adding lime, checking out the landfill or using coir. Heck, I wouldn't have thought to get a list going. See what I mean about not thinking outside the box? Gentle suggestions are much appreciated. If you guys have useful links for me (written in laymen terms) please post them. Thanks again.
davis1676, the pallets are about 4' by 4' and are heavy duty ones. You can check around some of the places that rent heavy equipment, you may be able to talk them into letting you "recycle" them. :) Our ask around, they come in all sizes and normally the place will give them to you free. You can probably get by with a 10lb bag of bone meal. Just put it in an airtight container and use what you need.
We are all compost addicts here as you may of noticed and always glad to help get someone else "hooked" not a problem! I just love the idea you can get most of the "ingredients" for you compost for free, people may look at you strange but that ain't no big deal. Also check out your local Starbucks for spent coffee grounds for you compost. Lawn services may be able to talked into giving you their clippings, check with some of the smaller operators, normally they aren't spreading chemicals on the grass like the big lawn services. Come fall, we go wander around town and pick up bagged leaves. It does cause some stares, to old foggies loading trash bags in the pickup, we always ask first and have been doing it long enough, we have a regular route, they're looking for us. LOL I normally try to remember to drop off some fresh veggies during the season, to these nice folks. It's a win-win all around.
Google compost for a list of other ingredients you can add, don't get excited about the ratios etc.......if it's gets stinky add browns. This is NOT rocket science. LOL
Davis, don't forget the phone book, for horse stables. Coir, coconut.... all good stuff. Browns: Paper products. If you shred your junk mail and credit card offers, that puts it to good use. Just don't use envelopes with the little windows in 'em or you'll be picking shiny stuff out of your beds for years to come (just ask me!). The other good one to use - and you don't have to tear this up - is the layers of cardboard and newsprint (both preferably soaked at the time) that you can lay on the bottom of your beds - it does double (at least) duty. Chokes out weeds, softens the earth beneath it and attracts worms from below that aerate that clay and help to break down the cardboard. I've found that boxes with the really colorful high-gloss pictures on them often have a plastic film on them that doesn't break down, so try to stick to industrial brown paper boxes as much as possible. Next time you brush your dog or cat, their fur is a brown. I use my husband's haircut clippings. There is some controversy as to whether or not old grass clippings are browns (probably not) and hay (also probably not). Leaves, of course.
With that recipe, you should not have to dig down at all - raising it up is the whole point. If given enough time to break down, your perennials should have plenty of root space - but you will also have to build up soil on top, as well. If you find yourself running short of compost, you can mix a certain amount of your soil into the bed with any compost, too. You'll have to get a feel for how much soil you can add and still have a compost-y feel to it.
Welcome davis1676, to the compost fourm.We are all alike, and all diferent, we learn from each other, and rely on each other's experence.I grew up very poor, and had to be resoursful.I just tried things until they worked.Now I'm a very happy retired person that loves being in the compost, and dirt.I guess you could call me a humas grubing addic.In my kitchen compost we put all our waste paper, as well as food scraps.No animal products.I've been known to save the bones, like chicken, and put them in a little square hardware screen, and let the ants cleane it up, and throw the dry bones in the chipper.All debris from my yard goes through the chipper, and into the compost.I have always turned my compost with a pitch fork.DW, and children bought me a compost tumbler, but I hardly use it, because the worms do such a beautiful job on my turnings.I do both hot, and cold compost.I put the hot, after it has gone through the heat in the compost bins.The bins are made out of scrap lumber, so it was only labor.Good luck,Mike
I love it - now I can add that to my title - dirt lovin', tree hugging, humus grubbin' pinko! Ha!
Edited for clarity... or something...
This message was edited Jun 14, 2008 12:55 PM
hee hee, I like that too Mike!
~ Pagancat, loved your little embellishment above. LOL! DH bought some coir, only its in a roll, 2' x 12'. Reckon it's the same stuff? Now am I suppose to shred it up? Shouldn't this last me a way long time? Ooh, have some "Arabian" horses down the road, only opposite of how I normally go. Cool, eh? Monday I'm see my hair dresser. Wish me luck.
~ doccat5, great ideas, thanks. But, the best thing you could have said was something about "it's not rocket science", I've made it harder than it is. I've made some more headway, Dunkin Donuts & my nephew has a lawn mower business (duh!). My uncle works for the next city over & can give me the scoops on their landfill.
~mqiq~ Mike thanks for pic. Looks like a great set up. So the pipes give air & stuff, I reckon. Is that a drain pipe? Would you tell me about it? What's the best way to go for long term?
Yes, thats a 4" perforated drain pipe, and I noticed a water shed contractor instaling these pipes, and what I got (more than I wanted) were the wast part.When you grow up without, you learn to survive.How many people do you know that use to throw rocks at the hobos, on a passing train, so they would throw coal back at you???
Yes, the more of these pipes you have in the pile, the more air you get, and you will notice that the "break down"is more fine around the vent pipes.I think you will make it, you are picking up fine.Mike
Composting *does* grow on you, heh.... if you stand still long enuff....
Thanks for the encouragement Mike. I remember the old coal stoves. We'd haul the coal in from the shed in the "coal bucket" (only thing it was ever used for). Lord the mess, but it usually meant we'd get a dessert for dinner from the wood stove. That was a while back. I'm guessing those hobos did get a bit miffed with all that rock throwin, huh? :)
Sounds like you got a little creative when you had to, like my aunt told me, "there's always a way". I pretty much ask around now & sometimes folks take the time to help me out. Who knows maybe one day I'll be helping the next "davis" to come along. :)
Just had a thought, would a couple clean 55 gal metal drums w/bottoms cut out work to start with for bins? If I drilled some holes in the side?
Sure, if you're tall enough to be able to reach in and stir things up. Be careful with those metal edges, too.
What I did (back then), was to turn the drum over, and rescoop it.It worked fine, just a little small.You don't have to drill the holes, if you a maddock axe side, and chop through them.Saves a lot of drilling.Mike
thanks for the voice of reason...nevermind.
I am currently using four large plastic garbage cans (cheapies from Walmart about $10 each) for part of my composting. My DH cut the bottoms out & drilled holes in the sides for air circulation. You could put a perforated pipe in the center, but I usually just layer from one to another as I add new stuff. Or you can lift the entire thing up & scoop into the next can. One can is reserved for finished compost that I screen as I fill it. It's slow going, but good for my kitchen scraps and small yard clippings. I also use a mulcher for limbs and leaves & have a large pile going constantly in another area. And a "weed pile" in another area for weeds & invasive plants. The plastic cans are light weight so I can move them easily unless completely full, and they have lasted almost 10 years.
This is my compost pile. A store (mail order) bought unit. This has been in for over 3 months, guess I'm not doing it right. But this looks good, smells good. ^_^
Emptied it this AM and to the garden it goes. And a load will go back in today.
I have bark mulch on my vegs and between the rows.
Question ? Can I put this compost on top or should I pull the mulch back (more work) and put it next to the plants ?
Should I work it in to the soil, (may cut some roots) ?
rentman- my vote is you pull hte mulch back from the base of veggies and spread that there and leave it at that if you have worked enough at that point.
Here's another bin idea. Take 2 by6 or 8 lumber and make Lincoln-log notches, and stack them. Mine is 4 foot by 8 foot. Reachble from both sides, and you can toss from one end to the other if you want to mix/turn.
However, with 1 and 1/2 unimproved acreas, I'd be lazy and cheap and just make a big open pile. Surely with your own hauling you'll find a manure source. Even with gas I think that'll be cheaper and better than anything you buy. Esp in the volumes you're gonna want!!!!!!!!!! For ten bucks of gas you can probably go twenty miles and get a yard or two of stuff. That can sit all summer and be awesome in the spring. Or just spread it thick now where you want beds to be in spring.
Sorry to tell you I think that coir roll is meant for mulch, not mixing in the soil. I bought a coir brick meant for potting, maybe about 4 bucks but only made about two -3 gallons of stuff, like half a large bucket. That's not going to go far on your area!
You shouldn't try to start the grass till late August. If you can find old manure, maybe you can spread that all over the 'lawn' area now. Till it all in August and seed.
My two cents- I can be very opinionated when I'm avoiding making my OWN decisions LOL
So much food for thought, I'm loving all these options for bins. :)
~jonsmom~ thanks, plastic trashcans are affordable enough & should be ez to set up. How large a can did you get? I'm wondering what size I can manage by myself? DH not crazy about any of this. I'm hoping the difference it makes will get him on board too. Could you tell me about the mulcher you have?
~rentman~ thanks for the pic, that unit looks ez enough, labor wise . Can you just flip it over with a handle or what? Is it rude to ask about what it cost you? I think your compost looks super; nice & dark, real rich looking.
~sallyg~ Oh no! The coir isn't meant for my compost? I'm so glad you told me! No need to waste my time with it right now, I'll find some bricks online & order. We don't have any locally. What a gorgeous looking compost bin! Man, thats so neat & tidy, how cool! I can get the lumber but can't notch it myself, I don't think. Did you do your own?
My husband won't go near the compost either, but he sure likes seeing the results. He did cut the bottoms out & drill holes in the sides of my garbage cans though. The ones I have are 32 gallons each - the round Roughneck brand with lids that Walmart sells. I can lift them by myself & let the contents fall out the bottom. Or sometimes I just shovel most of it from one to the other & then lift.
I found my mulcher at a yard sale. It is a Craftsman (from Sears) with an 8 hp Briggs and Stratton motor, so it is pretty powerful. I can put leaves, grass, etc. into the hopper or there is a chute for branches up to 2 inches in diameter. We have 2 1/2 wooded acres so I am constantly raking up leaves or clipping branches. It's hot dirty work to mulch it all, but well worth it in the end.
Soon you will develope a "feel" for feeding the mulcher, and you will really feel sufecient.I use to try to pack too much, and ware myself out forcing it through, of coarse you are farther along than that.Mike
Davis I paid around $250...had a lot of proublems with it last year, but this load is what compost should be...Yes you turn it over every day, maybe 4 times.
I have grass clippings and sheared beer cartons with a little rabbit poo in it now ^_^
davis- My hubby and dad made notches for me. You would need to cut about an inch or so in with a saw, in two places, and hopefully knock the middle out.. My bin is not so tidy right now!
Coir bricks are going to add up $ fast if you're using them outside.
Funny sallyg, I showed DH your set up & he said, "really nice, but who's gonna make those notches for it?" Maybe later as his work slows down, so I'll get some of the roughnecks. He also asked who was gonna move the big pallets? Hee-hee. I expected it.
As far as the coir goes...what else is an option, except peat moss? I'm going to town later today, so I'd like to make the most of my trip. I'm going to get a hold of a "Trading Post" & see if anyone has something by way of a chipper/shredder, I've searched the classifieds recently with no luck. Moved my makeshift compost pile (just using the ground) & the soil below looks noticeably better than before. :)
Brown & greens! LOVE it!
The trashcans will work nicely for the summer.
Anybody else feel free to chime in and correct me here~~~
Well, my thoughts on the peat-coir. I've never used either outside. I guess I don't have many thoughts! You are trying to improve the soil now so you can plant? Peat and coir are finely textured organic material. You only need a finely textured soil for small seeds, not for plants you have i n the ground now.
Look around for Leaf-Gro or ComPro in bulk. I shopped last year and I think it was about 35 dollars a yard. I know we have it in MD but not sure in VA.
I don't think you need the finest texture. In fact, shredded hardwood mulch in bulk has a fair amount of fine stuff in it. A yard of mulch goes about 30 dollars here. A yard is 27 cubic feet. So about a dollar a cubic foot. Most bagged stuff is a bit more, price it.
Bagged manure would have more nutrient value.
It must have been suggested in something you read, Davis? I used nothing store-bought whatsoever in my beds.
Wait a minute, hardwood mulch is ok? Where did I get the idea it wasn't. Well ok then, I've got a dump truck load already, so what part of this am I not getting?
Well, you will read warnings that using mulch mixed into your soil will rob it of nitrogen.
You can for sure use it as mulch on top, and I would even use it mixed in with adding a little fertilizer to offset any nitrogen used by the wood decay.
I am not battling clay soil, but I wonder if your plants are in as bad shape as you think.
Here's what my compost area looked like in early spring. I just build piles on the ground. The piles in the foreground are the raw materials while the piles in the background are finished piles in various stages of decomposition. The raw materials shown here are leaves, shredded apple branches pruned from my trees, yard debris and everything I cleaned out of my flower beds this spring. I layered these with grass clippings, vegetable scraps from the kitchen and lots of coffee grounds. I got a shredder/chipper last summer and absolutely love it!
early_bloomer
I can tell you that sawdust mixed in to the soil is about sure death for plants ... I have some very stunted plants to prove it. But plants are happily growing through sawdust used as a mulch. So....
I love being able to see the progression of your composting, Early_Bloomer. I like your set up too. It looks kinda natural to me, not obtrusive at all.
~ Pagancat, I'm growing mold spores (mushrooms) that look healthier than my plants. lol
I'm sure I'm a big part of why my plants/shrubs/trees aren't doing better. I'm potting most of them for now, for better control till I can try improved soil. The bushes/trees I've moved to the slopes are getting better drainage now & look better, even without amending the soil. Not great but better. I just talked w/the co. extension agent & he said get down to the landfill, all the trees down from the hurricane a few years back is now "a beautiful, dark, rich compost", free for residents.
There ya go!!
Most of my compost is mulched & just "piled" in a heap to decompose. I'm jealous of your bin, sallyg, and hope to convince my DH that I really need one like that. The big problem I have is tree roots growing into the pile. The only place I have for my pile is along a tree line and the trees quickly send in their roots. Any suggestions? Maybe I'm not turning it often enough? Should I put down cardboard or thick newspaper first to discourage them? DH suggested a tarp, or a wood bottom but wouldn't that keep out some of the beneficial insects, worms, etc.?
Here's a picture of my compost piles.
Some of the compost close up... bad lighting
Davis1676 roots are a real neausance, because they will feed on the compost as soon as its ready, and will have a bin full of invasive roots.I, who never through away anything, will keep old plywood, and put that in the bottom of the pit, and that helps greatly with root barrier.However, the worms will eat the old plywood, and roots will move in, but it is usually time for the compost to be finished.Mike
If you notice in my first picture the pile neaer the rear is underneath a Buckeye tree. The roots can be a little invasive. They have a tendancy to go near the ground level though. I don't put anything down to prevent this, however.
jonsmom- I know what you mean about the roots, I did have my pile near a maple one year- annoying that you can't dig all the way and you have lost some compot to the tree which could do fine without. But haven't tried blocking the roots, I would try old plywood if you have it. Cardboard might help if you can get a big enough piece.,; tre roots will be pretty smart about finding gaps in layers of paper or cardboard!