how do you get rid of your grass?

When you want to make a new bed or just plant something not in a bed already. I've been digging up the first 3 - 4 inches of grass with a shovel. Sometimes I claw at it with the little hand cultivator. The hoe doesn't work that well.... Isn't there an easier way?

Harper

Harper, I've done the shovel method, rototiller and lasagna. Lasagna is by far the easiest but requires preplanning by several months. I bought a small rototiller a year or 2 ago. It's easier on the back than the shovel method.

Do not throw away all that good top soil and organic mass. Till it right in and keep after it a time or two to work all the grass and roots into the fluff your tiller will create. Add a bale of peat moss and your light application of organic fertilizer with low numbers. Pick out stone down to quarter size. Leave the small stone in the bed. When almost all of the grass is defeated and into the soil make your plantings and immediately mulch with any mulch you can get your hands on.Shoot for two to three inches of mulch. Keep it damp and mulched the first year. I use leaves or straw as my first and second mulch choices when starting a bed. Use half an inch of mulch up next to your plantings and quickly go up to deeper applilcation. Basic to me is to dump a load right at the plant and spread it away from the plant by hand leaving half an inch right at the plant. I have never knowingly rotted a plant by using light mulch right up to the plant.....not even iris. I figure if the spring bulbs can come up through six inches of mulch and not rot why would anything else?

If you have permanent plants mulch with wood bark. Wood bark stays mulch longer and reduces mulch replacement time.

Sorry to miss the word lasagna which is a more modern usage of the permanent mulch management which is what Mother does when she is in charge. Our gardeners make it a little more enjoyable reading by talking lasagna as in layers of this and that. The term is relatively new but the principles go back as far as leaf fall to the earth is a fact.

I usually just throw it over the fence into the yard next door (lol).

If you work things right with a little effort your neighbors will throw it accross your fence where it can improve your soil structure and make compost on the side. It's just down right amazing what friends will deliver if you encourage the subject or soil building.

The original Lasagna lady just plants right into the fresh lasagna beds - but then her beds are 36" high! I still think that smothering is the best way to kill grass - layers of wet newspaper and /or cardboard with soil building stuff piled on top.

Smothering with wood based products then covered with leaves, straw, grass or any mulch that becomes a Lasagna method is a darn good way to manage any open soil. The rule of thumb is to not let the sun shine on any open soil.

When starting in a yard grass area tilling and adding peat or any half finished or purchased like mushroom compost will bring on success faster. It can of course be done without the input and tilling work but it takes much longer depending on worms to aeriate and fertilize the soil under the mulch by any name.

Most gardeners would like success yesterday. To get that a bit of early input does wonders. In so doing the poor soil under grass is improved in structure, water holding qualities and let us not forget grass in our backyards is a mono cultture that really has pulled fertlizer out of the soil for years. A little organic fertilizer is a big player in the begining at least. After that fine begining a permanent mulch or Lasagna principle of management will do even better faster.

Flowers require very little fertilizer after the bed has organic content. All of our beds were begun this way. I have done absolutely nothing of note but to keep them mulched with ground wood for over thirty years. The worm count is always high under the mulch.They make the best fertilizer and still more than your plants will use. Occasionally when I feel the urge I will use a foliar drench of any one of the many gallons of compost tea I generate from local compost combinations. Some years I do nothing. Usually it is only when I have some left over from my garden.

Well, I have a great compost pile. I'm glad about that. I'm mostly interested in HOW to get the grass up from the soil. My soil is hard clay and there's plenty of rocks. The grass roots don't pull easily from the soil. I don't have a roto tiller, and I won't be buying one. I don't think I could use one here with all these rocks anyway. When I would dig beds, originally, I would till the grass in with my shovel, chop it up and turn it under. Within a year it would grow up, right through the mulch and everything. I don't think I'll be doing any tilling it back into the soil. I'll toss it in my compost where I can keep a better eye on it.

I have also done lazagna beds with thick, wet newspaper and layers of leaves and such. I think it looks horrible for the six months that it's doing its thing. The dandelions grow right through the newspaper. I'm voting for them if they're ever in a race to the death. They'll never die.

Anyway, I have heard there's a tool called a sod lifter, which is what I would probably need. I could rent it for some outrageous amount of money, but I won't. I usually only have about 4 to 5 feet of sod to lift at a time, sometimes less.

Ah well... guess I'll be doing it the old manual way.

Harper

You could solarize it with a covering of black plastic for a year. This will kill everything but leave the organic mass in and on your rocky soil. Then the question is how will you mine your way through all those rocks to plant? Tilling and picking rocks out down to golf ball size still seems like the only sure way to get that job done and end up with a workable growing bed. Do as you wish with the sod but that is taking away a significant amount of organic mass that will need to be replaced with your finished compost. You have quite a sweat to win project there. Half of my flower beds were built in or on top of a rock fence row where the farmers tossed their field rock pickings for many years. We worked two summers doing what I suggested to arrive at good beds to start planting. I was also thirty something years old and could do the work. Forty years later I would not even think of working that project over. The rocks were tilled, picked and dug to make the beds suitable to plant. There is no easy answer when faced with this situation. Sod machines if they were available will not likely work with that much rocky soil anyway. They are designed to skim sod off of clean workable soil. As a last resort you could hire a nusery crew to come in and do the prep in one day at considerable expense.

I do it the brute force way. I don't have the patience for anything that takes months - solarizing, lasagna, etc. These bed expansions were never thought of months ahead or I would have tried these methods.

I too have had bad experience with leaving any grass. It survives and grows through anything. I have a major problem with it in many of my established beds now. Major pain. I always say that grass thrives everywhere but the lawn (I don't use any chemical fertilizers, herbicides or pesticides on the lawn. Of course, I have a weed problem!).

Harper, I just use a very sharp spade and dig down and horizontally. Luckily the roots are not very deep. I turn the piece of sod over and smack as much soil off as I can save. Sometimes I will use a hose to help.

Ok...here's my 2 cents. I have done both methods, one is way easier than the other.

First method: Good ole Gertrude Jekyll: Double dig. First foot of soil/grass flip over onto a tarp, next foot dig up and place somewhere else, replace the first foot into where you dug the second foot out, and then replace the second foot of soil on top of the first foot of soil/grass...eventually this will break down into about a 10" or so pile of compost type stuff...you can amend the layer that was 2 feet down with peat humus, compost, shredded newspaper, leaf material, straw, and fork it all in, almost like a giant soil salad. I also added about 40lbs of green sand to this second (now first) level. It's back breaking work, and not easy. BUT, the soil is so friable it's not funny. I planted directly into it, and mulched heavily, about 3" throughout the whole bed.

Second method: Sod cutter/lasagna bed hybrid. I used the sod cutter on my veggie garden, it measures 30x40 and I was not about to double dig that! You can rent sod cutters at most rental equipment places, they have varying widths (12"-18") they are heavy as all heck...a pick up with a trailer would work very nicely! Essentially the sod cutters use a large blade that have two "hooks" at the end of the blade, you set the depth, the blades go to the depth (with some maneuvering from you) and the blade vibrates through the sod roots...it forms nice lengths of "rolled up" grass. What I did after I did the veggie bed, in regard to the sod cut grass, is flip ever last strip over, so the roots where in the air. I placed a 1/2" layer of newspaper on top of the roots, several bales of hay,several bags of leaves, grass clippings, some peat moss, 3-40lb bags of greensand, and then mulched. After a few weeks I planted directly into this. Do not under any circumstances leave any part of the soil not covered...if you see a little spot, mulch it...atleast keep it mulched. After a season or two, you will find a butt load of worms, the birds will love you, but you will have worms galore. All together, the layer will amount to about 12" or so, give or take, of compost. After 2 seasons, I tilled the whole thing, and smoothed it over...and have been enjoying it since!

When doing it by hand, I do the dig, flip, smack, and then hand shake method. I haul the grass leavings to the compost pile. Dig again the now left over, mostly, clean soil and hand pick out any weeds, roots, rocks and other unwanted detritus. Of course this new bed will produce new weeds very soon, which I just keep at it the old fashioned way. One weed at a time. Nut grass and sorrel are the first to appear again for me. Years later they still greet me, though more shyly!

No easy way, but like Victor, I never would never probably do a bed and leave it to "cook" for months unplanted. The bareness would undo me. I also would have to save piles of newspaper which would also drive me nuts. Then doing all that layering would be beyond me. I will keep my attempts at lasagna in the kitchen. But I must admire the outcome that many garden lasagna bedder's get.

Harper, But with your clay and rocks, I fear there is no easy way. I did once dig out a bed in Canada that was all rock and weeds and bad heavy soil and I finally resorted to bringing in a yards of peat, sand, and better soil to basically fill in the bed with the new mixture. I hauled the original clay, rocks and weeds off to the woods. Best with your problem. Sounds like you will need lots of Aleve and patience. Patti

This sounds like dumpster diving, more like curb side diving...lol. If looking for a lot of newspapers...A)check out your local recycling center...chances are, they will give you as much as you can take. B) on recycling day go around your neighborhood...most places have recycling baskets, or make peeps tie/bind their newspapers...I was able to collect all of the newspapers for the veggie bed in 1 day, took a few trips, but all in one day. If peeps give you the "hairy eyeball" explain to them that you are using their throw away newspaper for your garden...never hurts to spread the word!

Thom, So true about the newspaper. We have a great recycle shop at our "Madaket Mall" aka the Nantucket Town Dump on the Madaket Rd which is very organized. The dump pickers, aka, the antique dealers, are there to help you unload your car asap. But for the straw/hay on Nantucket, those bales have to be "imported" . Way pricey. Why don't you get new weeds from the bales of straw or hay? My sweat and back aches are free. Glass of water and some pain meds do the trick. But it sounds like a winning situation for you and many other lasagna makers. Patti

Good point. I should sharpen my shovel. That would help.

Thom, I'll look up the Gertrude Jekyll method. I couldn't visualize in my head what you were explaining. I can't rent a sod cutter. I'm only 5'1" and not that strong. Although, I like the second method you posted. Whenever I get around to doing my veggie garden, I might do that. Wish I had a 20 something, 6 foot tall man o' muscle!

I have tons of newspaper here. No shortage on that. It's driving me nuts, though. My garage is so flamable, it's scary.

Patti, I cross posted while you were posting. Oh yeah. That sorrel never quits, huh? Thanks for your sympathy! I have patience (though not enough to do the lasagna style). I've got Advil. I guess I'm good.

Thank you Doc, Cat, Weeze, Victor and Thom!! Chuck, thanks for the laugh!

Harper

This message was edited Jun 11, 2008 6:44 PM

http://www.iirr.org/saem/page134-137.htm


This is one site on double digging, there are a bunch of them. When I google'd Gertrude Jekyll, it was all about her books, the house that she is famous for in the states, and the rose named after her.

I'm with Patti on the dig, flip and smack method. Most of our growing space is a former gravel road bed (well traveled at that). DH built large screens for sifting granite crusher after we lifted the top layer of garbage grass and weeds. We composted the garbage. I used a pick'mattock for years and have no neck and shoulders as a result. DH then gifted me with a Troybuilt tiller. It's great, but it won't tear up an old road. I think it's best to make a bed a few feet at a time on the horizontal and inches on the vertical. If you need to plant deep, create a growing hole. After busting bunches of shovels, I use a pipe and sledge when necessary. I don't mess around. After a few years, with a neighbor like Chuck chucking, it should look fabulous.

L

Wow, Now I now who not to mess with, Laurel is a tiger. Pipe and sledge! I agree with the going across the grass at a shallow angle first. I try to skim as much off the top as I can. Less work. Sharp shovel will help. I then do a modified double dig. Love GJ. I keep a book of hers always near by. But she had serious help. An army of workers. Poor Harper has only dreams and a small frame. I sympathise too. I am a towering 5' 2 1/2, don't forget the half as that is where my power is stored. Is Advil better than Aleve for sore digging muscles? Patti

So I went to the Dr. for a physical and he asked if I had any complaints. "Yes, I wake up in the morning sore and stiff." Then he asked me what I do in a typical day or week. He said, "Why are you doing this...you're almost sixty!" I said, "Why don't you retire. You're almost sixty too!"

Laurel

For the 'dig, flip and smack' method. What are we flipping and smacking? The sod? Why are we smacking it?

Sorry to hear about your missing neck and shoulders Laurel! I've got a pick axe. I hope my neck and shoulders stay put. Your soil sounds just as pleasant as mine. No, wait. It sounds worse. What do you mean by a 'growing hole'? What do you do with the pipe and sledge?

Patti, my usual method is to try to skim the sod off the top, so yeah, I gotta sharpen my shovel. Duh. That should help. Last fall DH bought a Craftsman heavy duty variable speed grinder. To this day, it's still in its box. Maybe I'll use it!

I'm actually 5'1 1/2". Can't believe I left off the 1/2". I never used to do that. Now I don't care so much. I don't know about Advil vs. Aleve, except that Aleve gives me horrible stomach aches, so I don't use it.

Harper

LOL Laurel!! The nerve of that doc! Sheesh.

Has anybody ever tried an epsom salt bath?

Well, we're trying to remove as much top soil on the "smack" as possible. We don't leave the green stuff there as it eats nitrogen while it rots. Amending with store bought is fine if you've got the funds, but you can go slowly and add the compost you have. Look for plants that grow in thin soil, like some annuals, as recommended. Then I whack out (Sherrie's term) a hole and amend with good stuff to plant a more permanent specimen here and there. I used to use bark as mulch, but found it was Nirvana for slugs and snails. I now use pine straw which does not break down that quickly.

L

Harper, I dig up some grass, flip the grass over and then I smack it with the shovel to loosen the sod clump up, then I pick it up and shake the tar out of it to get out to get as much dirt as I can out of the grass clump. My DH likes to use a pitch fork after he digs up a row. So his method is dig, flip, stab and shake about. "That's what its all about"

I am in my 60's as is my DH. He is still playing hockey and our Dr thinks he is nuts. But our Doctor, Tim Lepore is my age and this spring he ran in his 40th consecutive Boston Marathon a week after he had arthroscopic knee surgery. It took him three hours longer than his usual 4 hours. So I figure he is the nut but a great doctor. I will do a test of Aleve vs Advil. I use to have Epsom salt baths as a kid, not remembering why? I wasn't a gardener then. Patti

Oh, okay! (on the smacking) That makes sense. Usually I just shake it, but smacking should help.

...and you do the hokey-pokey and you turn yourself about...

Good for your doctor!

Yep, the hokey-pokey for sure. Then I launch into the "Here's a Little teapot, short and stout" and hope that some of Gertrude Jekyll's hired help have materialized and finished the digging and smacking for the little short and stout lady doing all the work. Patti

Oh no! My son sings the teapot song while he stands in front of the toilet. Even still at this age! He's 12.

I hope he never knows you reveled this on DG! Patti

I shake it and smack it...

I hope he never finds out either! Shhhh!! He will probably be coming to the RU so everyone keep quiet about it please!

Victor!!! I don't even want to know.

If you'll check my first post, I was the one who first mentioned digging it out and smacking the dirt off. What are you thinking, Harper?!! As I said, I also use my hose.

You know exactly what I was thinking 'cause you're thinking it too, Mr. Hose! You know I'm laughing here, right?

Then, while you put your left foot in and your left foot out, hokey pokey (or hanky panky) a bit before you shake it all about and sing, "This is the Song That Never Ends". That ought to do it.
L

My how this thread has deteriorated ...

I had to remove a lot of grass so I rented a sod cutter ($75 for 24 hours) from Home Depot. The sod is extremely heavy but it can be used elsewhere if you roll it up and dump it in a wheelbarrow (or I dumped it in our tractor bucket). I could only lift a length of 1.5' at a time.

After the sod was gone I worked in a 3-4 inch layer of organic compost.

Alternatively, I have some turtles that appear to be great sod removers and I'd be pleased ... no, happy ... no, ecstatic ... to drive them out to wherever you live.

Or I could set them in the middle of the Mass turnpike with directions... I'm sure they'd make it without getting run over ... I'm absolutely sure about that.

Gee Nona, sounds like you use the quicky method even if you resort to the Slowskys.

L

No Laurel, it doesn't do it, at least not when Victor is around :) I still vote for lasagna...easy easy, except for the hauling of 235 tons of compost. I don't find it ugly either, i find the dark earth waiting somewhat provacative. It has a come hither look. Then I say wait till next spring you silly sedructess.Lol

'Dirty' mind!

lol maypop ...

And our neighbors joined in (sharing the use of and cost).

Harper it sounds like i have soil like you - a lot of clay on TONS of stone. I have a rototiller - yard machine from HD - and use it to loosen up the larger rocks. For the grass I use a small sharp shovel with a straight edge. i think it is some sort of a edging shovel. I cut up the grass in squares and then slide/push the shovel under. i rototiller after the grass is up. then i put the grass back in upside down and add 6 to 8 inches of dirt to the bed to raise it above the clay. then mulch with hemlock. this is a brute force method - no doubt. i do not have much problems with grass coming up - some does but i just pull it out and it usually does the job.

i have the dirt delivered - it really is not too expensive a couple hundred for 10 yards. And with all the clay it makes a difference with plant performance. I also have been saving everything i pick up when edging in the beginning of the year for any dirt needed for plantings. It adds up - i have over 5 yards in a pile off to the side out of sight in the back.

I'm a gonna go meditate on this a spell.

L