A goat question for those of you who raise them.

As some of you know our horse died this week. We are left with unopened bags of Vintage Gold sweet feed and Beet pulp. I know we can feed the goats the beet pulp but can they also eat the Vintage Gold ? I couldn't find anything on the label saying one way or the other. We're also left with a lot of hay we had for him and alfalfa cubes. Can they eat the alfalfa?

MollyD

grass hay is fine. easy on the alfalfa, better to feed it to the chickens. fins a feed label that gives ingredients. one thing is goats can't have as much copper, at least not milk goats. the person at the feed store may be trained enough to know how much, if any is safe for the goats. if all else fails, list it on freecycle [you might make a new horsie friend], or donate it to a horse rescue group.

that's all i know, waiting for someone with more goat experience to chime in...

They usually eat alfalfa or timothy hat as a standard diet.
The cubes won't be as easy for the goats, smaller mouths,
but my guess is that they will chew on them anyway.

Vintage Sweet™ is a low-protein, moderate-fat blend of extruded nuggets, oats, and corn wrapped in molasses and vegetable oil for active pleasure and performance horses. Vintage Sweet™ offers the advantages of extruded feed to horse owners and horses who have a preference for a highly palatable, coarse-textured feed. Contains yeast culture, and rice bran.

Low protein is good. Short term should be fine, but goats need copper and some of the equine and sheep feeds do not contain any.

Hopefully I know what I am talking about, but I am fairly new to goats. :)

Man, I totally mixed up on the copper thing, it is the reverse of what I said.
And yes, the alfalfa is higher protein, not very good for wethers.

Here's the complete ingredient breakdown for the
Vintage Gold, which is higher protein, but might
help.

VINTAGE GOLD®

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude Protein, Min. ......................................... 16.0 %
Lysine, Min. ..................................................... 0.85 %
Methionine, Min. ............................................. 0.40 %
Crude Fat, Min. ................................................. 7.5 %
Crude Fiber, Max. ............................................. 8.0 %
Calcium, Min. .............. 0.65 % Max. ......... 1.15 %
Phosphorus, Min. ............................................ 0.70 %
Copper, Min. .................................................. 55 ppm
Chelated Copper, Min. ................................... 12 ppm
Manganese, Min. ......................................... 135 ppm
Chelated Manganese, Min. ............................ 20 ppm
Selenium, Min. ............................................ 0.60 ppm
Zinc, Min. ..................................................... 165 ppm
Chelated Zinc, Min. ........................................ 40 ppm
Vitamin A, Min. .......................................... 5,500 IU/lb
Vitamin E, Min. ............................................... 85 IU/lb
INGREDIENTS
Soybean Meal, Ground Corn, Rice Bran, Soybean
Hulls, Corn Distillers Dried Grains, Wheat Middlings,
Wheat Flour, Vegetable Oil, Yeast Culture, Cane
Molasses, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium
Phosphate, L-Lysine Monohydrochloride,
DL-Methionine, Magnesium Oxide, Calcium Sulfate,
Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper
Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese
Proteinate, Cobalt Carbonate, Calcium Iodate,
Ferrous Sulfate, Selenium Yeast, Sodium Selenite,
Vitamin ASupplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement,
Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Riboflavin,
d-Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin, Folic Acid, Biotin,
Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate,
Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium
Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K Activity),
L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Source of Vitamin C),
Oat Mill By-product.

CAUTION: This feed contains supplemental
copper. Do not feed to sheep.

And I am still not sure I have mixed up the info on copper.
Goats, yes? Sheep no?

Here is a link to the info on copper for goats:

http://www.jackmauldin.com/health/copper_deficiency.htm

Another good link that I found a while back.
As a chart of protein requirements:
http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/feedinggoatherd.html


This message was edited Apr 25, 2008 2:17 PM

I understood from what I've read that goats need copper while it is poisonous to sheep.
Tf these are Boers (meat goats). Not sure if that makes a difference to their needs. We have friends with horses we can pass the Vintage Gold to but thought I'd find out first if we could use it. I'm not keen on asking the clerks at the feed store. Most of them are teenagers who don't seem to have a clue as to what day it is!

Neofarmer thanks for those links. Feeding goats seems far more complicated than any other animal I've ever tackled! From that chart it seems the Vintage Gold has too much protein for either of my does. They will both be dry when they arrive and (fingers crossed) the older one should be expecting but at the very early stages of gestation.
Now the alfalfa cubes I can let them nibble on as a treat right? They'll also have access to lots of brambles and multiflora roses they can eat to their hearts content. They're getting a fenced in area over half an acre they can roam at will.

MollyD

Here is some info I found useful on how much supplemental feed
at what amounts lead to the ideal birth weight, which helped
the does at delivery time:

http://kinne.net/drostudy.htm

Thanks Neofarmer! Now to translate that for the larger breeds.

MollyD

neofarmer i REALLY appreicate those links. i am now the proud owner of a LaMancha milk goat!!!

Tf when did you get your new goat? What are LaMancha's like and have you bred her (I'm assuming it's a doe!)?

MollyD

she just had her first kids, and they are gone. she is a good milker, but her personality just doesn't jive with this lady's system. she milks 20+ goats twice a day by herself, so has no room nor patience for one that doesn't jive. i will be going to pick her up on Wed or Thursday. for once DH has absolutely NO complaints. he just finished the new barn for the Nubians and there is plenty of room. i will use the old horse stock nearby, so i just need a gate on the opposite end of the pen to make life easier. other than that, she will be bred back soon, and is milking twice a day, so we get milk for us and all our critters! and i have a new chore, YIPPEE! i am told also that she is good to follow you around closely, so she may be very helpful in clearing out the old garden to get ready for putting in some corn, etc...

she is black with white stripes down her face, and her name is Brandywine. perfect since DH love's tomatoes and I love heirlooms, and we both like good wine! her horns weren't properly removed so they grow back after you cut them. so she is not show material, just Doe and Milk, and a wonderful pet i know i will love! i have wanted my own LaMancha for the longest time!!!

TF, I am happy you got one of your wishes. And will have fun caring for her.

^_^
GG

thank you. it seems very timely. ♥tf

Tf Congratulations!

Here are some good goat web sites for you to peruse at your leisure :-)

http://bedford.extension.psu.edu/agriculture/goat/Goat%20Lessons.htm
http://www.geocities.com/heartland/lake/7750/care.html

I know you already have goats but wasn't sure if you had seen these pages or not.

MollyD

nope, thank you!

i did a lot of research on goats and chickens way before my hard drive crashed. so starting over.

Sam and I smiled all through breakfast, thinking how we could have fresh goat milk every day on our cereal and in my coffee! no more store bought cows milk! rice milk is only offered in a store in another town, and soy milk is expensive and not as good...

and cow's milk is getting very expensive lately! Goats are cheaper to maintain so it doesn't pay to buy a cow for it's milk . If I could only find a purebred Nubian to add to my little herd. One of my girls (I've already named her Missy) is a percentage Boer (88%) the rest of her is Nubian. I wonder if she'll produce enough milk for us once her kids are weaned?

MollyD

I was just on the phone with a friend who many years ago kept Nubians. She says that if you have a buck in the same area as the does being milked it ruins the flavor of the milk. Has anyone with dairy goats experienced this? I hadn't heard this before.

MollyD

I have heard it before--an unneutered buck is very smelly and the smell is suppose to permeate the milk--making it unsaleable. I think it is a sort of pheramonal musk--in addition to the self-anointing with urine!:0)

that is ABSOLUTELY true. which is why most owners of milking goats prefer to pay for the buck service fee so they don't have to put up with the buck the rest of the year! AI is also an option...

i don't have an answer to the other question, but it sounds like she may not be as much a milk poroducer as a baby producer. breed her to a nubian or other good milking breeed. her babies could be sold either as milk or meat goats, and you coudl keep one to be a good milker....

i love fresh cows milk and one day plan to have a miniature cow. they require less percentage grass and feed per gallon of milk/ pound of meat...

The problem here is that with the goat diseases like CL running around the responsible goat owners won't let you bring your does to their goats at any price. Those who will usually have so many diseases in their herd that you wouldn't want your doe to come back and infect the rest of your herd so the only option is to keep your own buck.
I'd go for AI if I could find out more info on it. Would not mind a yearly fee for this at all!

When I was at the Boer farm he had many bucks (not wethers) there and there was no unusual smell at all. Does this vary by breed?

MollyD

i take it all the bucks were in pens SEPARATE from the does. you could do that too, pen one up. you could even wait till you are nearly ready to breed to buy one, and get a health test done on it before you buy it. have your own breeding pen, collect some service fees, then sell the booger off...

or eventually raise your own. didn't you say one of your girls was bred?

Yes the one I'm calling Mama (okay so it's an obvious name LOL). I could keep a buck from her but then I wouldn't have a male for Mama and she's the purebred so I don't want to part with her. Her babies will be purebreds too. The buck she's been mated to is a fullbred champion. She's 96% Boer. I don't think her babies will ever be called fullbred though they will be about 99% Boer.

MollyD

Molly, I haven't been online in a few days. I'm sorry to hear about your beloved horse.

Sue

Thank you Sue.

MollyD

Someone mentioned about bucks being around the milking goats-they should be kept away from the milk house because milk will pick up off flavors from any strong smells. Even onions in the fridge will affect the milk. Keep your milking area clean! Don't milk in the stall where she sleeps!
We purchased a stanchion and made a milk stand(easier on the back! Then we would feed the doe her grain to keep her occupied while milking. Make sure to give your doe a nice grooming before milking to remove any loose hair(so they don't fall into the milk!) wash her udder and never use the first couple of streams of milk as there can be bacteria. I used to milk these first streams into a strip cup to check for flakes or lumps(signs of mastitis). If you get a kid doe, rub her udder to get her used to being handled back there and also they can be quite ticklish. If your doe isn't used to be handled she will be more likely to kick her back feet up while you are trying to milk!(foot in the milk pail!)
Sorry to keep on rambling!!
Sue

oh, Sue, all excellent info! do you think it is OK for me to walk her aorund and graze her before putting her in the stand? that way she will get mor egoodies and not gobble up so much grain...

Sue ramble on! I for one can use all the information I can get!! I'm curious. How far away is your milking stand from the shed where the goats sleep? In winter it would be a major problem to go very far from their shed. Right now I only have meat goats but we are considering adding a dairy goat by years end. My friend said their barn was 120 ft or so distance from where the buck was and it still got into the milk.

MollyD

my milking stand isn't covered.... just happens that the new goat pen is less than twenty feet from the old horse vet stock...

but i bet DH will galdly build a shed over it. any suggestions on milking shed size, assuming just one goat [at a time!]???

You are so lucky you had that in place already! I would have to build one from scratch (if and when I should get a dairy goat).

MollyD

no kidding! no pun intended. and walking to it from the other goat gate would be no problem, but today DH made a second gate at the other side! i think he likes fresh cream in his coffee as much as i do... btw, he doesn't mind the chi-chi the guineas make for alarms and such. it is the puh-peeps that get on his nerves!

for you a movable stand made of wood and metal might be more practical...

if he want sto use your banr for a shed, then he can build you a new barn for your milking stand!

We put a lean-to on one side of the barn so it was closed off from the rest of the barn. The thing with goats is the dung is very dusty so if you can have a separate area it's much cleaner. I must confess during the nice summer months I would move the milk stand outside and milk al fresco!

I would milk first thing in the morning and then again late afternoon. We always kept hay(timothy mixture) in constant supply for them in a homemade hay stand( trying to find a picture). I didn't let them out to pasture until after the morning milking. If you don't want to feed out too much grain, you could put in alfalfa cubes or chopped apples and raisins. Milking does do need grain to keep them in good condition.

Another nice feature with the milking stand is it's much easier to trim hooves. Their hooves are softer after they've walked around in the wet dewy grass. I use the small hand held pruners to trim and a filing rasp to smooth out. My DH uses a jack knife but I can picture cutting off a finger!! I also trim the hair around the udder area to keep it cleaner.

Oh just a tidbit: When we first put up fence we didn't pay attention to which side of the fence poles the fence was on. Well, live and learn!! Goats love to rub down the fence so make sure the fence posts are on the outside of the field or else eventually they'll push out the fence! ☺

Sue

here's one pic of the hay feeder

And another:
Hopefully you can see the slats that we built that angle from the top of the feeder inward. The tray helps keep the hay in the feeder. Sometimes Ia goat will jump inside. You can place a plywood cover over the whole top(hinged) to keep them out of the hay!

Thanks Sue! One reason I'm re-doing the fence is that it was put up by the former owner of this property. He had no idea how to put a fence up so he put all of it with the post on the inside! Buck loved pushing the fence down and Paul preferred to patch than to remove it and put it back correctly!!
I'm doing it the hard way and taking it all out then putting fencing up the right way!!!

Just got off the phone with the seller. Sore mouth has broken out at his place so he wants to delay my picking up the goats. I agreed for two reasons. First I'd prefer it if he footed the bill to take care of them! Second it gives me more time to get their shelter ready. I have to fix this one up for them and then start on a second one since the vet recommended we rotate them between two areas during the year. She said it would help to kill off worms etc since they wouldn't have a host all the time at hand.

MollyD

good idea Molly. the hard way is usually the best!

we rotate ours. the pen they were in is occupied now by the Barred Rocks. when we build the third one we will put chickens in the second one as well. then we will get the horse pasture converted over, and that will make four pens to rotate...

now DH is FINALLY working on the Jersey Giants pen...

Rotation is something the vet strongly recommend too tf. She said it pretty much helped to kill off worms since they wouldn't have a host for half the year. I'm planning on keeping them on the lower half in summer and the barn half in winter (when I have to haul water to them!). This year it will be difficult to do this since we won't have adult dogs to protect them while they're in the lower half. I may have to wait till summer 2009 to rotate them out.

MollyD

My DH brought up a good tip last night. When the pasture is starting to green-up make sure they have some hay before they are turned out otherwise their poo will get runny(ick!) Sheep are the same way.

Rotation is a great way to keep the worm population down. We were lucky enough to have our barn set up so they could go out three different doors leading into separate pastures which made it easier to rotate them. We used a horse wormer paste(apple flavored), I believe it was Safe Guard Fenbendazole-but check w/ your vet before using. Also DE. Fortunately, there are more products out there specifically for goats then there was ten years ago. I was lucky enough to have a couple of vets nearby to talk to. I had one with a nervous problem were she would grind her teeth and hardly eat. After getting x-rays and having her thoroughly checked out she was diagnosed w/ ulcers!! I had to give her Zantac 75! It worked! She had also swallowed a rather large stone! The vet and I were looking at the x-ray in awe that she could actually swallow it!
I also had a small feeder attached inside the barn that I kept baking soda in one side and the other salt. Before giving them salt w/ minerals have your soil checked-too much selenium can kill a goat.

Ok babbling again! I could talk about goats all day-they're just great!!lol!

Sue :-)

Here's a picture of my first goat, Miss Sandra Dee, we had to put her down after she had a stroke and couldn't stand up. We were sitting on a pile of logs sunning ourselves. I miss her terribly.