The chick with the huge vaulted skull has his two longest toes fused together on both feet. Is there anything that can be done for him or should I cull him now?
Big problem with new silkie chick
He actually has three toes fused together, he has 7 toes on each foot. I read about a woman who had the same thing with a marans recently and she cut them I am just not sure if the feet straighten out.
Oh poor little guy! Is the vaulted skull normal as well? Or is it a birth defect? Sometimes it's worth a try just to give them a chance. But that might just be my softside talking. :( Wish I could be more help.
Sue
We have a cochin with 2 of the toes fused together on both feet and it is the two longest. It doesn't seem to affect it in any way. You can't really tell the difference between him/her and the others. We just happened to notice when we picked him/her up. My hisband nicknamed him/her Defect.
Vaulted skulls is what breeders of silkies want, it makes their top knot taller and better looking so they are better looking and I would suppose win more.
I did what the woman on the marans site did for her marans. Cleaned it with alcohol, numbed it (I used a new thing of anbasol *sp) and a new sterlized razor. He didn't even really bleed except a bit when I seperated the toes themselves and even then it was only a few drops. He still will have problems walking. A woman that is buying the silkies that were left (BYH got first pick!!) is going to take him. She has a hen with severely deformed feet so if he doesn't walk well it will be well taken care of. I left him in the ICU brooder with some smaller chicks and a few quails. Fingers crossed he will be fine with minor problems.
I was just told about a great silkie site. Its a breeder and she has a lots of good info. I am going to make him shoes tomorrow, not quite like the keets but close. Here's her site http://www.silkiechickens.com/index.htm
I would have kept that one if only for the size of the crest its gunna have
I have some polish that don't have knob that big
I really have some issue with breeding too heavily
for certain characteristics that result in deformities.
I can understand 'variations', those are the very
beginnings of new breeds, but it hurts my sensibilities
when an animal will have problems for life. I hope the
potential new owner will take very good care of the chick.
He deseves that, if you choose not to cull him.
My mom was a labor and delivery nurse for 30 years,
and she taught me that when a baby has an obvious
deformity, they expect and always look for more. Some
are not so easily seen, if at all. If you do choose to cull
him, could you post a pic of his feet so we can all see
and learn? That way, at least we can know how different
chick's problems turn out- chick does ok, or not?
Yeah
I'd like to see the feet,never heard of fused toes
PS
Silkeys have 5 toes so if he has 7 there's only 2 xtra
the back toe should have 2 digits on it
One of my quail had a crossed beak, and I was so
perturbed by it, I didn't get a pic before I culled it.
I now wish I had, so we could all have learned from it.
We had a crossed beak hen for two years. She managed to eat just as well as the others as long as the food was in a dish. She used to lay the pretties big blue eggs!
Nowyatell me. sigh. It was very interesting, but still..
Unfortunately I never took pics of his fused toes before the seperation. The three nails formed like a triple wide nail and there was web between the toes. He is got his new shoes this morning & I am off to Wally World to get non slip shelf liner
If you get a chance, I'd like to see his new shoes.
Can never have too many shoes...
Lara -
One of my new blue marans has this too. The outside two toes are fused like a duck. It caused its middle toes to curl slightly, but at 5 days old, it is getting around great. Husband wanted to cut the web, but I left it. I asked Bev Davis if I should keep it, and she said keep it, but wasn't sure if it was an incubator issue or genetic issue. It is perfectly colored light blue and is huge. She said she would put it in with layers and probably not use it for breeding. If it is a hen, I might set a few eggs and see if I get webbed toes from them too. Then I will know to cull for sure and that it is genetic. The chick was a giant when it was born, so I am thinking it might be an incubator issue...
There is a defect called duck foot in chickens
Its a disqualification
But it happens
and the birds are fine
I wouldn't breed one
But if you are just raising backyard birds....
if they are hens and you're raising them for eggs they'll be fine
also,if one of my birds have a defect I don't correct it unless their health is jeopardized
If you correct it....you can loose track of which one it is and end up breeding from it
Good to know, and very good point. I suppose if I would have corrected it, it might get lost in the shuffle. I
hate to disqualify this chick totally, as it is otherwise my best chick in terms of size, coloring, thicker leg structure, etc. But I guess hard decisions have to be made. If it's a hen and egg color isn't that great, it will end up in the "eating eggs" coop. If it's a roo, well, it's a much easier decision I suppose...
after reading all this i really miss Beaker, one of my favorite RC Brown Leghorns. She had a twisted beak, so also had a smaller frame than the others. But was really friendly and woul deat out of your hand. And laid nice eggs too...
;-(
tf
In a nutshell I put a piece of clear packing tape on the bottom of his foot then positioned toes as straight as possible, pressed hard and then quickly put a piece on the top of his and pressed and made his toes the meat in a tape sandwich, then cut but not too close the spaces so there is some flexibilty. Their toes are so tiny it doesn't take much to hold them in place. And I put one shoe on a marans pullet. I seriously think the main problem with the hatching (other than the web toes) was I took them out of the incucbator before they were 24 hours old. A man emailed me last night from the Silkies forum and said they need that first 24 hours on the wire for their feet. Next batch they are in for 24 hours no exceptions and I will see if I get an curly toes since only had one curled toed guinea keet ever and he only has 2 curly toes and it worked out perfectly on the ice this winter, he used his bad foot like a rutter to keep from sliding around like everyone else did.
If I decide to cull him anyways thats up to me, its a quality of life issue. If I think he will be fine and able to function he will be rehomed, if he cannot walk and has a hard time getting to the food and water then he will be culled. I wouldn't want to lay around starving to death slowly but surely, with food and water in my sight, that would be cruel in my opinion.
I have a two bent beak macaws an older one, Crayola, a 30+ year old ruby macaw (greenwingXscarlet) and a scarlet that is 14 or 15. Their beaks are bent to one side because their hand feeder didn't know what they were doing and push them that way and they never did anything to straighten them out. The good thing is they cannot get a good grip on your flesh when they are in a naughty mood! Both Crayola and Tyler are nice birds, I will get a pic of Tyler the worse of the two and post it with the shoes.
Wow! that is so weird, Lora! Can you take a picture of the toes now? You are a chicken surgery machine! Go you!
Here's a marans foot, I used the shoe on one of them too.
I can't even picture how you got that on the baby's foot!!
MollyD
To tell the truth it took two tries to get the toes straight!
I'm surprised it only took two tries!
MollyD
whoa, that is so awesome! i am gonna be ready in case i have any problems with the next hatch... good job Lora!
Thanks everyone! I am going to change them tomorrow afternoon. So it was about 24hrs. I am amazed it only takes a couple of days to straighten them out, well, I am not expecting perfection, I will be happy with any improvement.
When I started walking my Mother had been hospitalized for months because she had broken her back in a scooter accident. She saw me walking and freaked out, I was pigeon toed (my toes pointed at each other) so I was put in casts up to my knees and braces over that, mostly at night, then just braces over shoes at night till I was in grade school. I wore those goodness awful saddle shoes, you know the ones that came in only a couple of colors till I was in high school, I totally missed clogs and earth shoes! Who grew up in the 70's without clogs? ME! So I am totally amazed that they are only in braces two days, granted when I see my foot prints in the snow I have perfectly straight footprints, its still amazing that they can change so quickly.
This message was edited Apr 17, 2008 9:53 AM
here is the thread with the first pic. doesn't show the foot before the tape...
So he* is still alive and thriving! He does have a couple of mis-shaped toes, other than that he* is alive and happy! I have nicknamed Tuck, for some reason he has a bald vaulted skull, the other two I have didn't lose their feathers on their top knot and has even a bigger vaulted skull. Here is a reply from a silkie site I posted about vaulted skulls what are they all about.
"All crested breeds can and/or do have vaulted skulls. If someone told you they don't exist, I would not expect her to know much about any crested breed. As to whether vaulted skulls correspond to larger crests, that is something breeders debate. Some select for vaults, some select against vaults (there are associated health risks, as the vault is created by a hole in the top of the skull through which the brain protrudes), and some select based upon other traits, not on vaults."
I will still wait to see what other post about the vaulted skulls of silkies.
This message was edited Apr 29, 2008 2:26 AM
Lorak, thanks for clueing me in on the vaulted skulls. Sorry I thought it was a birth defect! lol! I'm happy he is doing so well.
Sue :-)
Lora K
Since your EXPERTS on the silkey site say
"I would not expect her to know much about any crested breed. "
I'm assuming you are refering to MY comments on never having heard of the skulls refered to as VAULTED,No, I didn't say they don't exist - Just I've never heard it refered to as such
From your freinds discription sounds to me like the Brain potruding thru the skull makes the Vault?
If you beleive him then the crested breeds would cease to exist
the chickens head gets pecked to many time for it to survive running around with the brain making the knob
There is a bony knob on the top of the skull,which makes the feathers stand up
This is what I scaned from the Amican Standard of Perfection 1998
its on page 7 of the glossary of technical terms
Look under the word crest
here is the skull referred to as figure 22
It may look vaulted
but to the EXPERTS who are the American poultry association
Its a knob
I also looked vaulted up in the glossary of technical terms
its not there
So you can tell your crested experts to get the standard of perfection
look it up
and start using the proper terminology
and stop missleading people
Crested... If you do not like my termology then go to another thread. I will stick to VAULTED, its what I have always heard they are called. I posted Obamas baby pic here last year and I will find it to show him as baby (I had to get a new hard drive so all my pics were lost) he is alive and happy today with his VAULTED SKULL so don't tell me they get their heads pecked and die (you did state this because their brain in protruding out of the skull) how crowded does a pen have to be for this to happen? Personally I have never had a chick or chicken PECKED to death with or without a vaulted skull.
Why not google VAULTED SKULL SILKIE and see what you come up with. Here something from one of the best breeders of silkies on VAULTED SKULLS in SILKIES http://www.hattricksilkies.net/articles_vaulted_skull.html and heres another one about POLISH still calling them a VAULTED SKULL and that peck deaths are very rare! http://www.freewebs.com/professorchickenhasevenmorebreeds/polish.htm
So I will always call them VAULTED SKULLS because they are!
This message was edited Apr 29, 2008 4:40 PM
It sounds like there is some sort of semantic inconsistancy between "vaulted" and "knob" with the knob being merely the protruberance of the skull in crested breeds and vaulted being used to describe both the protruberance and sometimes the holes that are found occasionally in the breeds that have the knob. There are some interesting sites describing the pathology that can be associated with the knob--it sounds like it is a little like the hip weakness that is sometimes associated with the extreme rear angulation in show German Shepherds--not every crested bird have will have holes in its skull, and those that do may be perfectly healthy. It is just a variable that is sometimes associated with having a knob. This site has a link part way down that shows the variations possible in "vaulting". It is a little graphic!
OOps forgot the link: http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/l/a/lah161/research.html
This message was edited Apr 29, 2008 3:33 PM
Where did I say it was gunna die?
On this very thread I said
I would have kept that one if only for the size of the crest its gunna have
I have some polish that don't have knob that big
No way would I have killed or culled it because of the knob
The bigger the knob the better
You're the one who asked if it should be culled
and I have never told anyone to kill their chicken
I can't even kill my own chickens
your expert said
there are associated health risks, as the vault is created by a hole in the top of the skull through which the brain protrudes
I never said they will all be pecked to death
I said that if their brains were what was making the "vault" they would all eventually die
Its NOT their brains that are making the vault
Its simply the shape of the skull,so the brain is safe
as for your nastiness
I have some terminology for you
and I can google vaulted
but why
its the incorrect term
and misinformed people can use it all they want
Crested you use what you want and I will use what I want. As for nastiness I don't spend my days correcting peoples termology. I am not going let you or anyone else say I am wrong when I know I am not. So you can keep your termology to yourself. I am done with you and your need to correct my termonlogy because the whole world will be blown to bits if they are not called knobs! Did you ever think that polish breeders call them knobs because they are and silkie breeders call them vaulted skulls because they are? Look at this http://dlhunicorn.conforums.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=casestudiesemergencies&num=1160927052&start=0#1160927052 and the one Catscan listed and there is a huge difference between a silkie's vaulted skull and a polish's knob
As for you saying it they culled them at hatcheries and you had one that died after one day I looked back on that thread and its not there, it looks like it was someone else may have said that from the way the thread went for that I am editting my last post with the correction.
Ya know what
I'll just stay out of the poultry forum
I mistakenly thought it was a place to learn
Since you and your crew don't have anything to learn from me
I don't need to be here
and edit out what ever you want
you were nasty to me for no reason
I don't have a crew I do have two silkie chicks with vaulted skulls and one year old with one too. That I can confirm!