Seedlings that don't make the grade

Watching ZZ's latest double seedling bloom got me to thinking.

I have grown out a total of maybe less that 50 seedlings over the last two winters, starting in '05-'06.

Just three the first year and I am not keeping any of them.

The second year, close to 45-47 seedlings, and now more of a dilemma. Some are not obvious keepers and most don't warrant being registered. But I noticed that a few people would be happy to have ZZ's double white seedling. And I did send out many cuttings off my un-named/unproven triple white seedling (photo) to folks on this and another brug forum.

Did I do a no-no???

Brenda B

Call me dumb, but whyn would that be a no no? Those of us who are just trying to get a few brugs, are tickled to get ANY of them.

I don't understand, why would you think it's a no-no to share? I wish I had been one of the lucky recipients to the beautiful brugs.

Me too. I don't care if something is named or not. In my neck of the woods, the only way to get a brug is for someone to share one with you. Can't buy them in my zone and I've heard too many horror stories about buying them online. So, for the record, I'll take anything you want to send me. :0)

Juanita

Here here! LOL

If you bought the seed then you can pass them out as you wish. If you were growing them out for someone thats another matter. If ZZ said you could pass them out that would be okay.

What are the parents of this triple?

I got iris one time from a breeder who just didn't think they made the grade. I think they are beautiful and I am sure alot of us would feel the same way about the brugs you are talking about.
Joyce

From what I understand, if you are growing/evaluating them for a hybridizer, then they get to decide whether they get tossed or they can 'give' them to you. If it is something they want to keep, they get the first cutting/s and you aren't supposed to give them away until they are officially released etc.. unless you have a different arrangement with them.

If it is your cross then you get to say lol.

If you purchased the seed, then legally they are yours, but you should always state who the hybridizer is.

So angel, what you are saying is, if someone gives me a named brug, I can't give any part of it away without their permission? Or is that just for the hybridizer?

I don't think you did wrong Brenda.

I didn't offer the one in my post cause it took 2 years to bloom and that wasn't the only problem that particular seedling had..

Ya'll, thanks for your input.

Delisa- Some of the seedlings are from bought seeds- those I shared. The orange/green-eyed single are from a hybridizer who shared her seeds with BGI seedbank- this one is not being shared with anyone but the hybridizer.

Kenboy- The triple white was one of 8 seedlings grown out of SSN seeds purchase last winter. The cross is Genevieve x Olympic Flame 2006, and three of the seedlings produced triples. All the rest are white singles, except one peach. Two of the triples are white, one pale peach.

ZZ, I know all of the seedlings are not to be shared for qualities lacking in uniqueness, vigor, blossom or some other consideration. I don't think people realize those considerations when they see a pretty double white and they don't have one. I personally have gone from famine (from 5 brug varieties) to feast in two years. Im trilled with all my named brugs and have extra thrills from the seedlings I've grown out this year! As are you, from looking at the beautiful photos you've been sharing! So, how many seeds are you starting this year? lol!!!!

Robyn- Angel was talking about seedlings, not registered, named brug varieties. We all share the named ones with each other.

Brenda B

LOL Very well said Brenda! I would share every seedling I've grown with every single person here if I could... there are several reasons why I can't (or shouldn't) do that. I will share no brug until it is time. LOL

I too have a lot of seedlings (relative to my space) and love growing seedlings! It is soooo exciting to watch a bloom open for the first time. I had about 65 this year which isn't that many when it comes to seeds.. but it's a lot for my tiny yard!

I planted more than that for next year.. OH NO! I said it out loud!!!! Someone stop me! Pleeeease don't tell the neighbors! I was keeping that a secret from myself too.. dang..

I'm never heard a thing ZZ and even if I did hear it, I'm not telling.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

LOL, ZZ, I'm with you on that one!

I was looking at Seed Sprout Nursery brug seed crosses for this year and next thing I knew, I had three packets ordered! I actually exercised extreme control!! That is a dangerous site!! lol!!!

So, I will grow out only about 55 seeds this wnter. And, no, I don't have room for them outside, so I will be resourceful, and probably sneaky!

Brenda B

That's a great place to feed the need for seeds.. LOL I'm scared to look anymore!

For all those lusting after a Brug, any Brug. Be patient. There are a lot of older named Brugs that can be had for next to nothing that has proved it's self. If you get a Brug from someone that has not, you may be in for a big disappointment. It may not be a good bloomer, poor growth habits, no fragrance or worse, a bug magnet. Choose your Brugs well.

kenboy
www.vonrussellfarm.com

This message was edited Nov 30, 2007 10:27 AM

kenboy...is that your farm?
how can you possibly hit on any more things that i like w/o buying a hockey team?!?!?
we have great pyrenees
love brugs
deciding about peacocks
have ancona ducks
too funny!
lynda

If you pay the shipping I will send you an 06 hatch, I. B. cock bird that is split to Bronze and White-eye. I know this is all Greek. I am getting out of the India Blues and all their colors. From now on, I will only be breeding the Greens and high percentage hybrid crosses.

This message was edited Dec 1, 2007 6:08 AM

Oh, wow.....christmas is very early!!!!
I'll d-mail you :-)

Brenda I think it could never be a no-no for you to share those, before having this discussion, because you had such generous motives. But for the future you might consider that most reputable breeders do destroy their culls, not share them, because they don't want to be adding more deformed brug genes to the gene pool that's out there now. I don't see anything wrong with sharing the "plain" plants, or ones with that just didn't make the grade, but for the future you might consider destroying the ones that come out deformed, like in the picture (that's a double with an extra deformed calyx instead of a triple btw). Deformed plants rarely produce quality offspring and tend to pollute all their offspring in a negative direction.
Just like you shared them, so will others, and on, and on... The amount of deformed material slowly becomes a larger percentage of our overall pool. I hope you can see how for the future there would also be a kindness in quickly destroying deformed plants. (I know it's hard! :^) )
If the seeds are given to us by hybridizer, they are given with the condition that we will not share the plants with anyone at all until the hybridizer "releases" them to the public (even if that's never). So it would be an etiquitte no-no to share any plant at all that hasn't be released by the hybridizer, and it would be a no-no for a hybridizer to release deformed plants to the public. :^)
- Tom

Tom, Thank you for that info, I never considered it that way. I've learned something new again.

wow ken thats a pretty pea cock . we used to have one. neighbors dog got it before we built permnant pen for it and guineas.


sorry off topic.

Tom

Now that you pointed out the deformed calyx, I can see it- it's obvious. While most of the flowers were well formed on this seedling, a few were not and that constitutes a no-no to me.

A hybridizer recently explained that seed I receive thru a seedbank or seed which is shared by a hybridizer needs the approval of the hybridizer to share any offspring- but if you purchase the seeds, you also purchase the rights to the seeds. Since this person is a well-known hybridizer, I figured this person would know.

Any of you hybridizers, is the above true? What is your understanding of the "rules"? To me, the hybridizer should always be acknowledged/credited, and also consulted, if considering registration of a seedling.

Brenda B

Well said Tom!

I agree with your take on the rules, Brenda. I would want to give the hybridizer credit, and consult whether they feel it should be released or not.

I'm a rather aggressive culler myself. I feel we should all try to 'do no harm', as the docs say. It's really not hard to cull after the first couple of times. A sigh on 'what might have been', and then I move on. If I'm going to spend my money on supplies and my sweat on the work of up keeping these plants, I rather be expending my energies, hopes, and dreams on the best ones. Can't really keep the so-so ones around because they might accidentally breed with the good ones. (As in bees)

Being a newbie to brugs this has been very interesting. You all have explained very well why some should not be shared, but I bet it is still hard to destroy the "bad seed"...LOL

Joyce

I hesitate to post some things cause I am still considered new, and don't want to come off as a "know-it-all-wannabe" I was hoping someone would come in and explain what I was trying to say gently! LOL Thank you Tom!

Destroying our seedlings that are deformed, or not worthy of naming or breeding.. is really best for many reasons.
One being... That down the line they don't end up on ebay as a "new introduction" with a given name that is not registered... being sold to newbies who don't know.. OR
It could end up mistakenly named..
There are soooo many look alikes out there.
That's also why it's not good to put an ID on a brug that was sold as a NOID or no name...it may be a "look alike" and someone claims it to be a named variety by "ID ing" it here and then there is MORE confusion and contamination of the named varieties.

Named varieties are named for a reason.. They are proven performers. In our lust for brugs as newbies, we tend not to care about names.. but there is a reason to care about names!

Brenda As far as hybridizer's rights, that is correct.... Purchased seeds also purchase rights to them.
I see some of the "rules" as being more of an issue of integrity rather than hard fast rules.... or maby the golden rule..

Mary is so right.. it's only hard to cull them at first.. and if we put sentimental meanings on them that makes it hard too.. I take a ton of pics and those are my memories of seedlings long gone. LOL

Brenda I would agree with your hybridizer friend 100%. I would also add though that when you purchase seeds then you still inherit the same responsibilities the hybridizer has to to show good etiquitte and not release deformed plants to the public.
I would also like to add to your thought on consulting the hybridizer when considering whether to register a plant from shared seed. Actually it's the hybridizer who might consult us, the seedling parent. Naming and registration would usually be by the hybridizer first, unless they choose to delegate it, or unless you purchased the seed from a business. :^)
- Tom

OK, Since we are on the subject of etiquette... If someone gives you a seed, you grow it out, nice colour shape whatever but not worth registering.

May you use it as a parent without permission?

Just curious.

My question would have to be...if it isn't worth registering, why would it be worth using it as a parent? :-)

We're talking etiquette - it's always good etiquette to ask. They probably wouldn't say no unless there was something wrong with the plant, and then you wouldn't want to use it anyway. The more serious question is why isn't it worth registering? If it has obvious faults there's no reason to use it. There are plenty of good plants out there you can get inexpensively, or free for postage at the right time of year. If it's a good quality plant, but looks just like 'such and such', then weigh the things behind the plant. It's parents and grandparents, are they better than 'such and such'? This subject could go on and on, and is best covered by many books on genetics that can explain things in a much more articulate manner than I can.

Keeping it simple I'd say, "breed the best to the best and keep in mind that the faults and good things from the grandparents may very well show up in the get of your cross." If you don't have the right cross to make with your plant, ask for pollen. Almost all of us have a few vials of pollen stashed in our freezer.

When a hybridizer shares seed and want's to reserve their normal hybridizer's rights, using it for your own breeding would be included under the umbrella of whether or not it is "released". After they relase it to the public, then you're free to hybridize with it, but before then you would want to ask first. Like Mary says though, you'll probably find most are rather generous there when asked.

This message was edited Dec 2, 2007 7:24 PM

Just another little tidbit to throw in... as stated before, if you purchase seeds, you have no obligation to the hybridizer, though it still would be courteous to inform them of any nice seedlings you get. But at a minimum, you should credit them as the hybridizer if you do decide to register and trade any seedlings resulting from purchased seed.