Help with hardpan dirt

I know I have asked this before - and the common consensus was to try and work when the dirt was wet - like after a good rain - but honestly, I have 100 daffodils to plant under some trees on the terrace (where we slaved to plant hosta this spring) - and I need some ideas.

I tried using my husband's electic drill with an attachment (sort of like a mini-auger) but I could only grind out about 15 holes and the poor drill started to seriously overheat.

Now, if I start putting on layers of compost next spring - say, 3 inches thick - and I do that every spring for a few years, and I introduce some dew worms, etc. - is there any chance that I might actually end up with reasonable soil in about 5 years?

Meanwhile - is there some sort of 'garden weasel' tool that would help me with this dirt? I mean, besides a jack hammer? Something that is reasonably affordable?

Same thing for around the fountain - I dug up some hostas and rudebeckias so I could plant two shrubs - omg- I can't believe how hard it was to dig up those plants! DH had rototilled a row that extended the garden - so that soil was already broken up, but the hosta and rudebeckia were probably planted 10 years ago, and the dirt has never been tilled since then. And next spring I plan to tear out all the hosta and rudebeckia . . .

Anyway, I am open to suggestions . . .

Good luck...
(grateful for my sand)

I went to the "Garden Shed" forum - and a lot of folks there seem pleased with a smaller tiller called a "mantis" Do any NE people have any experience with these? Are they worth the $350 asking price?

Do any of you have a mini tiller - like a troy or a mantis? I know I have posted this elsewhere but I need some feed back - these seem very expensive and I want to be sure I will get my money's worth before I order one. Is this something that (1) you use routinely and can't imagine being without, (2) used it once and now it is gathering dust in the shed, or (3) have no idea what I am talking about. lol

Really - help me out here. To order one costs $350 bucks for the mantis (comes with "free" edger) This is 2 stroke gas powered motor. I want to use it on the terrace which has dirt like cement. DH has a full sized tiller - but I would like a smaller one I can use around plants.

Anyway - this is the web-site -

[HYPERLINK@mantis.com]

tell me what you think

This message was edited Oct 18, 2007 6:13 AM

Several years ago when I moved into a new house, in a burst of enthusiasm I ordered several hundred bulbs. Finally coming to my senses, I realized that was a lot of digging in rather poor ground, so I ordered a planting tool from Brent&BeckysBulbs that looks like a small spade blade with a handle and a footrest on it. You jam it in the ground, wiggle back and forth, then drop the bulb (+amendments) into the hole. It saved my back, back then. I've seen huge auger tools advertised as well, but if you have stones in your dirt (good old New England) those don't work as well.

But recently I planted a hundred narcissi in a prepared bed with nice sandy-loamy dirt after a rainstorm, and just used one of those hand tools that cuts out a cylindrical core of dirt 6 or 7 inches deep. Took less than two hours and didn't need the wiggle wedge once.

Don, my problem is getting anything to even penetrate the dirt - it's that hard. sigh .... well, pirl has suggested a pick axe - and I think she may be correct.

What about hiring Kassia's groundhog? I'm sure he works for tomatoes.

You might just be better off to turn them into raised beds, fill with good soil....

Yes to the ground hog and to the raised beds - but these are public gardens and I have no funding for making the raised beds - so I must work with what I have.

I once met a professor at Memorial University in St. John's, Newfoundland. He had bought 5 acres of rock about 30 minutes distance from the university. Over a period of time, he transformed that rock into 5 acres of organic farming and paradise by gradually building up the soil. That is my inspiration. If I can just keep adding compost to the soil (free from the city) and maybe adding some dew worms, eventually, I may have soil worthy of the name. :-)

Um...I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and this is a completely and totally kamikazi sort of way of doing it, but......
I have, on my property, nothing but ash...the house had a coal furnace up until 20 years ago, and was built in 1897, the orginal owners, and the second owners were lazy, or whatever, and used the sides of the house to empty the ashes...
Also...the front right of my yard, and the right side of my house, had, at one point, a brick patio of some sort, that dirt/ash was thrown over, and grass planted.
Ok, deep breath, let it out, and someone out there is going to gasp...but, this is what I did...
Layer some newspaper, about 1/4" or so, if you are able, add mulch on top...to about 4-5"...that's it...all done.
Anyone who doubts this, I will gladly send all the pics, next year, of my spring, summer, and fall gardens in these areas.
The pic I posted with the path, going through a hosta bed,(I don't know how to do the link, but it's in the NE Forum, under, "Promised Pics of Plants Posted") was done this way.
There is hope...I promise...lol

Yes that would work - sort of lasagna without the extra layer. I would go for good compost though.

Hemhostaholic - I am confused - did you plant stuff in the mulch? I think daffodils need to be planted about 6 inches deep. Can you grow dafs in mulch?

I think that if I just keep adding 3 inches of mulch each year, eventually we might end up with good soil in the shade garden.

I am not so worried about the terrace - we can rototill compost into the soil there.

What kind of mulch? Compost is much better and can be planted in without worry. The depth can be a problem for Daffs. Can you get two inches into the hard stuff?

I planted over 200 daffs, about 100 or so tulips, and several varieties of the large globe alliums with the method that I had stated...along with daylilies, hosta, and other plants/shrubs. I placed the bulbs on top of the newspaper and covered them with about 4-5" of mulch...like victor said sort of lasagna like without a layer. It's two seasons, going into 3, and everything is coming up, pardon the pun, like roses. The shrubs, I did dig down, and had to remove some of the patio bricks, but other than that, the process went as such:
Found spot I wanted, placed about a 1/4" of newspaper down, placed bulbs, and covered with about 4-5" of mulch. That's it. Everything is/has been coming up fine...it's not a "best practice" scenario, but it has worked for me thus far.
Just mulch I had delivered by a mulch place, there are a few chain like ones in my area, Mt Muclh, MR Mulch, etc...it's plain old shredded brown mulch.
Totally and completely agree with Victor, the reason I did this was out of pure convenience for my back, and to save money...I was not about to try and tear up a 18'x20' foot space of brick patio pavers...I cheated, and it works...lol. Ideally, I should have removed the bricks, and as much ash as I could have, composted, ammended, and planted correctly...but, alas, I did not.

I did the same thing here....I have a double wide driveway, a dirt driveway, and didn't need it that wide anymore.....couldn't dig there to save your life.

Built an 8 inch wall in the shape I wanted out of some old split wood I had laying around....found a place the township dumps all their chipped trees and branches, filled it in and planted!!! It's been 3 years, and everything grows well.....just now started adding some real garden mulch and a bit of manure if I transplant anything in there.

And raised beds are always better anyway.

On campus last week, some guys were planting mums. They had something that looked like a cross between a jackhammer and a drill with a HUGE bit. It made holes exactly the size of the pots the mums were in - 6 or 8"! I said - wow, i gotta get me one of those! And they started telling me about mums. I said, no i HAVE mums - but that thing you are using to plant them is great. I think i confused them - perhaps strange women don't often come up and admire their tools.

But i have the opposite problem - nothing but sand and rocks.
i couldn't guess how much garden soil/topsoil i have added over the last 2 yrs - i cu ft at a time, this is all by hand, and then i have mole tunnels, and it all sinks. When the landlords built the wall, they "filled in" topsoil to within an inch of the top of it - now in most places it is sunk to below the top level of blocks. Elsewhere on the property, it is easy to dig holes, but it is really hard to keep them from just sliding in. Birds love it - they take dirt baths all summer and send up clouds of dust.

That's an auger and it would no help at all if you have rocks.

so it doesn't auger well for us northeasterners?

Except for the ogres.

We can pry into the dirt about 4-5 inches (hard as h*** to do it, though). But the idea of digging down 12 inches is laughable. I suspect that building up the soil is the best alternative - I think Hemhostaholic has some great ideas - but where do I get free mulch for the daffodils???? If I can get them in the dirt, I can get free compost from the city in the spring.

I think that Thom's suggestions are the best. Now, where to find good compost, or some decent mulch - that would be the next problem. Have you asked the city? How about a local contractor, or a tree-removing service (someone that chips branches in a shredder). I'm sure there are quite a few places around where you live that would donate to a public project.

Are there any dairy farms around?

I would not used freshly chipped wood - as it decays it takes nitrogen from the soil.

We used fresh wood chips once - and the most amazing slime grew in the gardens - never again! I know I can get free mulch from the city in the spring; I doubt anything is available this time of year.

But - it has been POUNDING down rain this evening, so maybe if the ground has soaked up enough water, it will be easier to take a pick axe to.

Does your county have a recycling center? I don't know if this is common or not, but our county recycling center offers mulch for sale...I believe at last check for a "bucket" full it was $13. 2 buckets filled up the back of a pick up truck my uncle let me borrow for the day.

Michaela, did you check with the town for compost? I know mine has free compost available at all times except winter. I have a small tiller that I use to break up the top layer of soil, about 8 inches deep, then I add alfalfa and compost and till again. But it takes a couple of hours to do a 10x10 plot. I added top soil once but wouldn't bother with that again. The compost alone is better. I think the tiller is mantis, $300.

Seandor - my new garden on the top of the slope was once that kind of dirt. It used to be where we threw our grass clippings and leaves. That improved the soil enough to plant some ditch lilies. We still threw our leaves over the ditch lilies in the fall. When I dug the ditch lilies out this spring the soil had improved 100% over what it was - this was over the course of almost 15-20 years though. I also mixed in some top soil before starting to plant. I'm sure the compost - mulch will do a lot for the soil as it did for mine. I don't think you have to wait as long as I did for the results either - I just didn't even consider doing anything with that area until last spring. Good luck! Eleanor
p.s. - why not use a jackhammer? They can be rented.

Seandor - I wouldn't chance either a jackhammer or changing the level of the soil by adding compost under the tree unless you're willing to lose the tree, per the advice of my radio gardening expert.

IF you can make it through the first few inches then keep on digging. Sometimes you'll hit roots and other times you'll find rocks.....or softer earth.

It was a pick axe my friend used on her plot of impossible ground. She did add truck loads of town mulch mixed with chips and does have a lovely garden there now but it was an unbelievable amount of work. It's the area with the gazebo in this photo.

Roots I ran into as I cleared the area of Polygonatum to plant hydrangea. Since I would not risk the trees by removing all these roots (marked with lily stalk cuttings) I ended up replanting the shallow rooted Polygonatum.

pirl - I think you are right. I wasn't thinking about the tree with regard to the jackhammer - it would do a number on the roots. But would a few inches of compost or mulch hurt the tree - I'm thinking of the forest trees around my house and they certainly deal all right with fallen leaves around them in the places we don't rake?? This is not an argument but a rookie gardener question? Eleanor

I mulch the beds under my red Maples twice a year, hasn't hurt them.....

It's probably the difference of minor building up of the leaves, year after year, that doesn't bother the tree. When 6" is put down at once it could spell death for the tree.

Gosh pirl! I didn't think of that ... the leaves and the tree thing. I should have remembered that from a previous experience of mine from many, many years ago.

Providing you can find spots to plant the daffodils, in between the roots you'll encounter, how will you dig them up to divide them in the future? Eek! That's grief!

If the compost is real good - fluffy with a nice open structure, I would think the chance of 'suffocating' would be greatly reduced. You should certainly never put soil on top. But if there is some doubt and the tree is nice, don't chance it.

Thanks pirl. Seandor - do you have to plant them under trees? Is there another spot that might be easier for you to plant them and take care of them? Eleanor

I agree with Victor - the fluffier the better and yet it's no help for Seandor having to try to dig under the trees.

Tough dealing with two separate challenges - hard soil and under planting trees.

I also didn't take another, slightly less important but important thing into consideration, is this area on a slope? As long as the caudex of the tree isn't under the 4-5" of mulch or compost, everything should be fine. What type of tree is/are these being planted underneath? What type of/or is there a slope? Hmmm...A Narcissi conundrum....?

Well, after the pounding rain last night, I hoped that the soil would be somewhat softer. Out I went with shovel, cultivator, rakes, bulbs, etc. to bravely face the day.

Well . . . the top 1/2 inch was wet - and some moisture has seeped lower - but most of the rain probably just ran off the dirt onto the street. But the dirt was definitely a little softer than it was in June. I managed (with a LOT of effort) to dig down about 8 inches. The dirt is very sandy and a MASS of fibers and roots. I even used the pick axe - but the handle needs to be replaced (plus it is REALLY heavy - DH calls it a "maddox" ).

I managed to dig up and crumble the soil of a little more than 25% of the garden. So this is where most of the daffodils are now planted. Of course, this is the side I can see from my home :-)

I will do another 25% perhaps later this fall - or early next spring. As I was digging, I was also shovelling wet leaves into the dirt (well some organic matter has to be better than none). I will also dig up some of my good dirt (and hopefully some worms and helpful micro-organisms) and put that on the soil .

I will check with DPW as to whether we can get compost now since it is a public park - but I do know that citizens of Springfield can get free compost in the spring.

Meanwhile, DH has rototilled a new garden with a 6 foot radius around a small tree on the west side of the terrace. This will eventually be a butterfly garden, but now it is a holding garden for perennials that will eventually be relocated to the fountain garden - which will be built next spring :-) The rototiller did the work in less than half and hour.

Oh - regarding the trees - we could care less about the trees! Honestly, everyone agrees there are too many trees and the location of the trees makes absolutely no sense. It appears that people didn't want to toss shrubs, trees, etc, so they just planted them hapazardly on the terrace with no thought to how the terrace is used, or design or anything. Alas, because they are now on public land, we can not remove them, but only hope that they die, and the city will then remove them.

For instance, at our end of the terrace there are oak trees - well, we need oak trees and those acorns like we need a hole in the head, given the invasion of squirrels at this time of year!!!!!

Personally, I would remove the trees and replace them with flowering dogwoods, flowering plums, etc. The boulevard along the street has HUGE trees which completely dominate the views and hide many of the gorgeous homes. Many are disfigured by utilities who must limb them to prevent huge branches from taking out electical wires in wind storms. How much better it would have been if more modest sized trees had been selected. The city doesn't have the resources to maintain the trees, and many of the neighbours are too elderly. DH has taken his pruning equipment and skillfully removed lower branches so that pedestrians can use the sidewalks, while still maintaining a more attractive shape to the tree.

Well, Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither will the gardens - but this year we have made a start :-)

Thanks for your support and great ideas! Someday maybe I will get a Mantis of my very own, but in the meantime I got a good work out today.

You can pray for a Mantis.

Other advice - get lots of coffee grounds (Starbucks gives them out) and keep spreading them around. They're wonderful and do a great job of attracting worms.