grub problem - DE? help.

this is going to be too long of a post, but please bear with me - i need advice!

last week, i went to plant some mums in the border where nothing has been disturbed since landlords put down mulch a year ago. i moved the mulch started to dig and i found grubs.

a LOT of grubs.

i didn't know what they were then, but i was totally revolted. ick. i came close to giving up the garden right then!
since then, i have done a lot of reading up on grubs. i now know why most of the lawn is dead, too.
After reading and researching, i decided that diatomaceous earth was the solution. It is non toxic to animals and birds, and should help with the ant problem too. (yes, i know about milky spore, but it takes years and would need to be done to the whole yard and is beyond my budget and time.)

So, today i went to my favourite nursery to buy some. Both the men i talked to said - o, that won't work on grubs! Somehow i got talked into buying this other stuff that they said would work, but it is a poison (cyfluthrin?). We have stray cats that come around and i'd rather not kill them, or put unneccessary toxins in the yard. And then when i got home, it said nothing about grubs!
So, i searched again, and people selling DE say it gets rid of grubs. But i want to know - has anyone here used DE?

i know i am not one of the daily posters, but i read this forum a lot, and i feel like i know some of y'all and can trust you...

please help...

thanks!

amy
*

I've got a big jug of Mach2 at work, but have never used it because grubs aren't bad here. What kind of grubs are they? white,JB,?

I've heard beneficial nematodes are used for grubs. Never tried them myself.

I've been looking at Imidacloprid and Milky Spore for grub control. The first for areas of the lawn and the second in the veggie garden. Too late really for either of them so I'll wait until next year. What brought grubs, aside from some I found while digging, to my attention were moles. Their tunnels are everywhere. Have 50 tomatoes plants and assorted other things in raised dirt beds, When I water mole holes open up. Walk on parts of the lawn and its squish, squish as the tunnels collapse. But not one plant has been harmed and the lawn looks OK.



This message was edited Sep 7, 2007 8:48 PM

David - i think the grubs bring the moles because the moles eat them. we have a mole problem too - earlier in the summer i used mole repellent of some non-poisonous sort and it got better, but i think they're back. Are you sure it's too late for milky spore? I thought it would establish itself fairly quickly, given enough water even though it takes a long time to eliminate the grubs completely. If you see them now they must be eating something, it might as well be something that will destroy them...

Al - The grubs i have are about 3/4" or so, hard to tell as they arent usually in a straight line. They are silvery-grey with a darker brownish part at one end. From what i read, it is difficult to definitively identify them as JB without expert help.

Honestly it doesn't matter if they are JB or a less harmful variety of beetle - they have to go! They are the most awful little things and there are SO many of them. i have a serious bug/spider phobia (particularly indoors), but i have managed to keep it under control enough for gardening. So i can't imagine buying and deploying bugs to kill the grubs, Victor. I know that it is a good idea & thanks for the suggestion...These are about to push me over the edge. (I have a 6" still-in-the-pot mum sitting in the flowerbed by the marigolds. I picked it up to water it and there were 4 on the dirt that had been under it. yeech.)

Has anyone used diatomaceous earth for anything? It is supposed to be good for most crawling bugs and can even be used inside.

thanks for the suggestions...

amy
*

amy....from what I've read, the best time to apply Milky Spore and nematodes to control grubs is just as or just before grubs hatch---last few weeks of July, first few weeks of August in our area. I planned on using both, along with Imidacloprid away from veggies but put it off a year, or more, because of the expense. The problem, while annoying, hasn't been fatal to anything (yet). If I didn't have almost an acre to do I wouldn't be so concerned about making sure the money was spent at the most effective time.

Milky Spore and the nematodes are the only 2 organic treatments I know of. You can read about then at Garden's Alive.

Diatomaceous Earth. DE is used in pool filters and also fish tank filters. When used properly in a fish tank it helps give off chrystal clear water. I have a 140 gallon aquarium.

My DH had a desented Skunk as a pet once. The critter was known to stomp his feet. He said that skunks like grubs also. They will dig up your lawn like moles.

Gardens - I can't help you there. It don't seem to be harmful, if it is used in pools and tanks?

The kind of DE used in pool filters is heat treated and does not work the same way against insects. It becomes more crystalline or something, and is also more hazardous to work with.
David - wow, you have a lot of space! I'm sure you know what you're talking about (probably more than me), i have just gone a little nuts about wanting to destroy the little creepies.

Off to work for me!

amy
*

Isn't it late to be seeing grubs?

DE works on slugs because it scrapes their bellies. I don't think it would do anything for insects unless the critter crawls with a soft underbelly

I've used it for lawyers.

I have grubs as well. It seems the JB have laid their eggs and the grubs have begun their destruction. From what I have read about lawn care is that the dead grass we see this year is from what the grubs did last year. I found about 10 in a 2' x 1' area of my lawn.

I got my milkyspore down just before the rain last night. I know it takes years but the war has begun!! I want my lawn to look almost (as good as is a big ticket to fill) Al's lawn! Al you should start a thread about Northeast Lawn Care!!

From what I have read / heard, nematodes are more effective.

But aren't they VERY expensive?

Depends on how large an area needs treatment. Gardens Alive has 1000 - 1500 sq ft treatment for $100.

how many treatments does it take? and how long does it last? I have about 1500 sq ft to treat

Never used it. Here's a link:

http://www.gardensalive.com/article.asp?ai=79&bhcd2=1189219912

Hi everyone,
Just saw this thread and found some info that may help. I've never used DE myself, but from what I found in my search it should work for grubs.

Here's some links...
Just what you're talking about...
http://www2.hgtv.com/hgtv/gardening/article/0,1785,HGTV_3546_2165906,00.html#cooliris

Interesting article about using DE in animal food...mentions that it kills JB grubs
http://quikonnex.com/channel/item/14238

Look under "Dealing with a grub infestation" on this page...lists DE as a treatment, and says it won't hurt worms?
http://www.region.peel.on.ca/health/topics/pesticides/pest-control/pest-control-ltci-9.htm


From reading these pages there's just 2 warnings I'd like to suggest, *please* wear a mask if you do use the DE and make sure you get DE that doesn't have pesticides in it...some are mixed w/ pesticides and that wouldn't be what you're looking for by the sounds of things.

Good luck!
Heather....back to lurking, lol

So, nematodes are actually microscopic and not like buying bugs to put in your garden? They don't get bigger? The parasitic roundworm description i was reading on the University of Nebraska page is pretty scary sounding...

I totally thought that "roly-poly" bugs were nematodes, and i couldn't imagine buying a container of them to dump in the yard. (i was picturing something like the containers of crickets or worms sold as bait or pet food...


In defense of my original intention, DE is definitely meant to work for insect control.
Wikipedia says:

And HGTV.com has an article here (if you type grubs and garden into google, it comes up 1st) which advocates it as the best thing for eliminating grubs: http://www2.hgtv.com/hgtv/gardening/article/0,1785,HGTV_3546_2165906,00.html

So i guess opinions vary widely.

All i know is until i get something to deal with this i am planting nothing. Sigh.

amy
*

Thanks Heather!
We cross-posted the HGTV link - please don't think i was ignoring you!
I will check out the others...

*

For all of us that live in different area of the world and prob call these bugs by a different name, it would be easier to identify them if you could post a picture of some, do remember that as you intend to take up gardening, then it is not a sterile environment like inside the house and some bugs, grubs, and other insects are needed to keep up a balance within the garden to enable us to grow the flowers and plants we like, some bugs live on the roots of plants, some eat the grubs that do that, some live off the greenfly and other insects that we all find a problem to our flowers and greenery, attracting birds into the garden also help deal with a lot of our garden pests as birds come and eat them too, I sometimes get an attack of grubs from the daddy-long-leg grubs that live in the lawn roots under ground, but each year as they hatch, then the birds stamp all over the lawn and as the grubs come to the surface, they are eaten by the birds, there are controls for these grubs using chemicals, but these chemicals also kill off other things that are beneficial to the garden, it is worth realising that while we are in bed, indoors or elsewhere, there are creatures at work in the garden that we dont always see but are good for the garden as well as pests that do damage, maybe the way to help with the grubs is to dig over the beds you want to plant, then as you bring them to the surface, walk away and let the birds do the work for you, but to be honest, without a picture of the grubs, it is hard to identify them, also, as your area for the beds you want to plant have been covered by a mulch, then every probability the bugs have been well hidden from normal predators therefore been able to live and multiply as much as they have, now you have uncovered their hiding place, then it is more likely that they wont survive for long now they are exposed and also be food for birds and other predators, as the soil you are to dig has been covered for a long time, then it is unlikely that the grubs were living off plant roots, they were possibly living off dead decaying soil and other organisms, wish I could help you even more, but I would stress the dangers of using chemicals if you dont really know what you are using them on or the destruction of other species within the garden. good luck anyway, hope you find out what these are and the safest way to deal with them. WeeNel.

Weenel...a good point to remember about bugs being part of the package. I grew a zucchini this year which was bred for flowers. Lots of them and big. Few zucchini. One day, annoyed with picking bugs out of the blooms, it came to me "That is why this flower is here, that is why the plant has them....to attract these bugs....and to be blunt about it, all I am to this plant is one giant bug myself...like the little bugs, I'm here to make sure this plant reproduces itself"

i think that the grubs ate all the grass roots and have worked their way down to the last 2', where i have my garden at the edge of the wall.
There is almost no grass left anywhere in the "yard" (it's funny - the "landscapers" still come & "mow" it every week - they just throw dust around.)

As i said in my original post, i don't want to put unneccessary toxins in the yard. But when you have no grass left, and the dead stuff comes up exactly as described from grub damage, and you have an extreme quantity of the icky things (12-20/sq ft), i think it is clear that something must be done.

i have never used harsh chemical insecticides - once this summer i sprayed plants with the soap based "organic" stuff, and i used non-toxic castor oil mole repellent after finding dozens of holes, and losing multiple plants in the spring. i don't use roundup or other chemical weed killers either - just a lot of elbow grease to rake and pull them by hand.

So perhaps i am oversensitive, but i feel hurt by the implication that i desire to sterilize my garden environment and destroy all insects with no regard for or knowledge of what they do. That is far from the case, or i would have done it by now. i do appreciate that you took the time to reply, but i feel rather like a child called on the carpet, and i am not sure that i entirely deserve that.

i know that i have a lot to learn, and that is why i come here, to get advice from all y'all who know more than me. But please don't assume i have no idea what i'm doing or lack respect for the balance of nature.

BTW - what people in the UK call daddy long legs are crane flies (in TN we called them mosquito eaters). i looked it up online, because i didn't think dlls had grubs. There are plenty of beetle grub pics online, just check google. I haven't taken pics of mine because i don't want to have to look at them more than i already do.

i am looking at the nematodes, but they cost a lot, i am a full time student and the land isn't mine - same problem with the milky spore.

i apologize if i am grouchy - it is late. i appreciate everyone who has given up some time to write to me with advice - time is a resource in short supply!

amy
*

(((Amy)))
Gardening can be frustrating when you're dealing with creepy crawlers...add to that being short on time, plus it's not your property....*Sigh*. I don't blame you for not wanting to spend tons of money to treat someone else's property. I think that DE would be a great way to go. I'm wondering if it's possible for you to use DE just in your garden beds and leave the lawn go? I really don't know how that would work, but I'm wondering. It should kill off the grubs, and if the grubs are gone the moles wouldn't be there either...and I know that would only be in the beds, but aren't those really the only areas you're interested in? Do the landlords know about the mole/grub problem?

I applaud you for being and staying organic in your garden. It's not an easy thing to do. I've been there and done that, lol. It's sooooo much easier to run down to the store and grab a bottle of round-up or pesticide and just spray 'em down to nothing! The most frustrating parts of an organic garden are doing the research, and getting things going. There is a time at the beginning of an organic garden, before all the good bugs come in, that you feel like you're going to be wiped out by bad bugs...and you may well lose some of your plants. Been there, done that too...but stay encouraged, it's all part of the plan and the learning experience. In my garden, after the first year of being organic and feeling like I was over-run w/ every bad bug and yucky thing...the second year I found I had tons of good bugs and critters to help out (ladybugs, spiders, chipmunks, birds, even a snake!). Funny thing that I find is the baddies seem to stay there and make nasty faces at you, the goodies run and hide when you approach...which is good 'cause I don't want to see any of them!!

So, all my ramblings to say this....if I were in your shoes I would try the DE in the garden beds alone to start...or keep your plants potted and cover the ground under them with DE and still maybe mix some in the potting soil. Someday you'll have your own garden and it'll be so beautiful that everyone who passes by will stop and admire it! You're certainly on your way!
Hugs,
Heather

Amethystsm....I agree with you. For those who want to go 100% organic, fine. But its not doable for everyone. Living in Branford while in High School I grew tomatoes organically. I was sold on it. Convinced I had kept the bugs away by loading the soil with decades old composted horse manure.

Then, decades later, a friend on the California coast invited me to farm his property one summer. Perfect climate. Right above the fog but not into the interior heat. Perfect drainage. Full sun. I planted everything you can imagine. And the bugs loved it. Without the freezes we have up here, everything on earth I think grows in that soil. I had planted a quarter acre and there was no way I could handle it.

So my theme now is best practices which is I think what you are saying. Don't dump chemicals on the yard but if you need them, use them. Prudently.

Are you familiar with Carolyn who posts mainly in the tomato forum? Her background is microbiology and she has written on this quite a bit. She often cites a natural insecticide which is more hazardous than the Daconil growers use on tomatoes.

Good tips - that's my general approach. 'Go up the ladder'. If organic doesn't work, start with the mildest chemical. Try to spot treat when possible, rather than hitting a large area.

There's a name for that method. Is it integrated pest management?

I try to stay organic and I tolerate some bug damage and black spot to do it. But I will "move up the ladder". It's not religion to me.

IPM really stresses using beneficial bugs to solve bug problems.

i went to Natureworks in Northford and bought DE - we will see what happens. DH is bringing a mask and goggles from work - just to be on the safe side...

BTW, Natureworks has DE AND milky spore for 1/2 price right now. i bought 1.5 lbs of DE for $4. David, i am not sure where Clinton is, but you might want to look into Natureworks - if you haven't yet.
(And thanks Dave for sending me there way back when - before i found out those nature walks were at 9 AM!) The people there are so helpful. They did say that it was probably too late for nematodes this season, and that they'd die off when it got cold.

And thank you so much Heather for your encouraging words - maybe mostly (un) common sense, but it helps a lot to hear somebody say them. You made me feel much better.

/but back on the dark side: i uncovered about one sq foot where i want to plant mums yesterday. i scraped off all the mulch and a little dirt, and found about 6 grubs. Pruning the plant next to it, my eye was caught by movemement. Grubs! The earth was moving with them - there must have been 2 dozen in just the top inch of dirt. I think they must make up 20 or 30% of the dirt out there.

i will have nightmares for the rest of my life after i get through this project.

amy
*

Good luck with the DE!!

milkyspore 1/2price!! that's a good deal!!

Amy I thought the grubs were bad in my area!! YUCK! That would give me nightmares too! GROSS!

I have a terrible Rose Chafer and Japanese Beetle problem.
I still have JB's doing damage to my roses. :(
My rose crop was ruined this year by plague levels of scarab beetles.
I have around 75 roses spread out over an acre of land.
Seems like just sprinkling DE around the plants would be just the tip of the iceberg.
Can you just sprinkle it directly on your lawn areas and will in sink in?
I have 50 lbs. of food grade DE that I purchased to feed my livestock to deworm them. So I have plenty to experiment with.

...well, maybe i'm exaggerating a little.
(but it does seem like it.)

The woman i spoke with at natureworks recommended mixing it into the soil. (she said a foot, but i don't think so. if there are as many grubs 12" down as in the top 2", then the dirt IS 30% grubs!) The thing is, earthworms are good, and DE is bad for earthworms, too. i don't want to kill everything out there, but i am beginning to have some mysteriously sickly plants - i think the grubs have moved on to a new diet. But i am not going to do the whole "yard," it is too big of a project.
What i am trying to figure out now is, if i do mix it into the dirt, am i killing everything forever? Or do the "diatoms" break down over time? i don't want to make the garden uninhabitable by earthworms forever. Will i have to remove that dirt mixed with DE next year? Or will it have worn out by then?

i do plan to use it in my windowsills and baseboards as we move into the cool time when outside bugs want to come in...

i totally appreciate the time and advice y'all have so kindly been sharing with me on this unappealing topic.

Thanks!

amy
*

The JB problem here varies from year to year but after putting milky spore on the lawn a few years ago it has been less each year. I also still hand pick the little monsters and it has not been bad of late. This may also be due to weather conditions who knows. Here is a good site for management info. http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/housing/japanese-beetle/jbeetle.html

I must have a beetle/grub problem outside the side door as there appears to be a nocturnal war being waged. Something is muching a large brug and the lawn is a maze of mole holes. Plus there are dug out places made, I think, by a coyote as he or she tries to get the moles. Every morning one squirrel is out there at 6 AM policing the battlefiled--smelling the dirt every 6 inches in a criss-cross pattern, seeing if anything tasty has been dug up the night before.

Bought crocus, muscari, scilla, ipheion, winter aconite and puschkinia libanotica to tuck away in the lawn. I just know that squirrel and his buddies are going to get them. Maybe after the frost things will quiet down.

DP we have a horrible mole problem as well.
I do think it got worse after the golf course moved in next door.
They spray the grounds with Merit which kills all the grubs.
I think all the moles moved over to our place.
There are portions of our lawn that is solid tunnels.
Between the moles, grubs and beetles, it's enough to make one want to give up on gardening.

Yesterday, as i was uncovering areas of garden from the mulch that had been dumped there by the landlords (a slow, endless task) in order to work DE into the ground w/o mixing tons of mulch in too, i got another lovely surprise -
ants!!!
and, naistier yet, eggs.
i must have found a solid layer of eggs and about 1.5 million ants between my verbena and echinacea.

it is like the plagues of Egypt out there.
i don't know whether to cry or throw up.

i spent about an hour shoveling a mixture of ants, ant eggs, mulch, grubs, and dirt (from an area of less than 2 sq ft) into a bucket and taking it to the dumpster.
i definitely uncovered roots of the echinacea and morning glory in the process. i tried to put dirt back over them, but who knows if they'll make it.
The one good-ish thing is Mrs. Landlord hapened by in time for the ant-a-rama. We had a chat about the grubs in the lawn, and i explained about milkyspore & nematodes to her. They'll look into it in the spring, but mention was made of "ant killer" and some kind of pesticide that has been taken off the market, and how they wish they could still use that.

sigh.

amy
*
(didn't think to grab a camera at 1st - ran up to get DH's old one, my batteries were dead.)

Wow - you certainly have your share of challenges, Amy!! Good luck.