Let me start by saying I know NOTHING!
Now that we have that clear, I am wondering/daydreaming
Would 1 cow and a couple of chickens serve my family. Would the vet, food and basic care of a cow be outweighed by the dairy products she would provide? Do you have to have a cow and a bull if you only want milk? Told ya I didn't know anything.
I do know I don't need a rooster for hens to lay, but is it economical, again with food, vet and basic care.
I have the room, I have the ability to build shelter, I can not afford to heat said shelter all winter, is that a problem?
No I haven't done my homework, I tend to get involved and over-obsess so I thought I would ask opinions before I did homework.
Fran
Price analysis: Do I want livestock?
Can't help you with the cow questions, but I'm sure someone will come along that will.
I personally spend way too much on my poultry in comparison to when I had chickens before. Last time they were completely freerange and cost me pennies to keep. I had very good luck and little loss as well.
The flock I have now is locked up in the chicken yard most of the day and only get out to freerange a bit in the evenings after I get home from work.... therefore they cost me much more to feed. Now I have quite a few.....over 40 chickens , plus turkeys and some ducks and a guinea.
The turkeys will go to freezer camp as have some of the extra roosters. If you get a rooster you can have the option of some extra home raised meat....but there is more cost involved obviously. A lot of folks frown on that just to let you know. But my personal opinion is I have spent a lot of money on them trying to feed them the best, why let that go to waste and give them away to someone else when I can use them to feed my kids. Fresh eggs and good quality meat are hard to beat !!!
A few chickens won't cost much to keep and feed even if they are kept in a pen. If you freerange, and this is only my personal opinion from past experience... you have to have more than just several because you will suffer some loss (hawks , dogs, coons etc... ) I also think a rooster is a good idea in freeranging... roo's will help to warn and protect the flock.
I don't really plan to heat my pen, I have never done in the past either. I live in Northern Michigan and it does get cold. I do however plan to be able to plug in a heat light if needed....only on the most bitter nights. But I do not personally believe it is required.
A sturdy coop that is dry and draft free is essential.
Most vets won't treat poultry. I believe a lot of vets consider them to be a "disposable" farm commodity as they are cheap enough to replace.
Now the hard part is can you only contain yourself to a few chickens....lol, easier said than done.
Julie
Thank you Julie, That was a great poultry answer. I am not sure I would be able to raise for meat. No I am not anti meat.. Eat it all the time... just not sure I can follow through.
Anyone for a "cow" answer?
Fran
As for a cow, are you employed? It's a little harder to care for a cow in the mornings than it is to throw a little feed and water in front of a bunch of chickens and gather eggs. How early in the morning do you want to get up before you go to work? Also everything costs money. She's going to run you anywheres from $500 on up depending on the cow. You may be able to get by just grass feeding her but she's sure going to come to the barn night and morning a whole lot better if she has some grain in front of her. When we milked we fed about three pounds of grain for every pound of milk produced. I suspect you could get by on less. She's also going to need some decent hay in the winter. It doesn't have to be the best of the best but needs to at least be dry cow hay.
A cow may not need to have a calf every year but eventually she's going to drop off in production and the only way she's going to pick back up again is to freshen. Also you may want her to have a calf for beef production and replacement heifers. You don't need a bull but you do need an AI tech. Semen and breeding fees could run $50-$100.
As for shelter, no farm animal needs a heated structure but they do need something that's dry and draft free. It can be a run in shed and in the worst of winter you'll want to provide some bedding.
She's going to need lepto, IBR, BVD shots on a regular basis. Worming may be necessary. We used to worm just as soon as they freshened. This basic cow health you can do yourself. You'll need a vet if she gets sick and if she has trouble freshening. Farm visits here start around $75 the second the vet pulls in the drive.
Janet
Very good info Janet, thank you
yes to your question, I am an early riser and do get a lot done prior to even starting my real day. But these are the thing I do want to know.
frans530, I'd be very careful about the option of having a milk cow. There is umpteen times less work to care for a meat cow with a calf than a milk cow with a calf. Having the milk product on hand is not a big money saver unless you have a pack of kids to drink and consume + 1 or 2 of them willing to milk the cow twice a day. Milk cows require a lot of tending. far more so than a beef cow and quite a bit more than a flock of poultry. Selling milk to the neighbors or whoever just opens up another big potential for trouble. Buy the milk at the grocery store and I'd recommend the same for meat as well. I just bought a huge piece of Top Sirloin for $15 (10lb uncut). We couldn't believe the price. I had to slice it and put it in ziplock bags when we got home. My b-in-l sold me 200 lbs of beef last yr that cost $750. We still have hamburger left from this "bargain" and the other cuts cost us $6 a lb. Never again! I'm stocking up my freezer with Ribeye & Sirloins at $3/ lb. Any time I want hamburger ... I'll get it at WalMart or elsewhere for $2/ lb.
This message was edited Aug 15, 2007 5:03 PM
the cow will pay for itself if you sell the excess milk to your neighbors, but they will tie you down. they have to be milked twice a day. if you go out of town you have to have someone who is very dependable and knows how to milk. a holstein gives the most milk,
down to a jersey which gives less, but has a higher butterfat (more cream).
Keep in mind that selling unpasturized milk can be illegal in many states. There are ways around this but you need to be aware of rules and regulations regarding such an endeavor.
Everyone is right. Cows can't be turned off if you are out of town for a week. You also don't want just anybody off the street coming in and slapping a milker on her. I doubt that the usual "pet sitters" are very well versed in running and cleaning milking equipment, mastitis detection, heat detection, hand milking, proper milk storage etc.
Janet
I agree I'd be very careful about selling unpasturized milk, I've read some threads stating how much trouble you can get into. I think the homesteading forums have some threads about it right now....
Not to mention there is the liability if someone becomes ill ....we do live in a sue happy society. I have read ppl who are unaccustomed to raw milk can have problems in the beginning with digestion.
Julie
julie that reminds me when we had a cow and sold milk to the neighbors across the street. My mom assumed everyone knew to skim the cream from the milk but our neighbors just stirred it all together and they all got the trots.lol.
so what disease does un-pasturized milk cause? chessusitis? i wouldn't worry about it. if they want it pasteurized they can pasteurize it. It's not like it's going to sit around and spoil like it might in commerce. or be transported in the heat all day by unrefrigerated milk trucks! let em sue. the burden of proof is on them.
Unpasturized milk can carry Bangs (undulant fever) and TB.
I had toyed with the idea once of getting a goat for milk and milk products...lol. But decided it would be lonely so that would lead to 2 goats and so on and so forth. Seems to be the way things work at my house....everybody needs a friend !!!
And then you have to breed to "freshen"... I think thats what its called ...to get milk. And we all know baby goats are just waaay too cute to part with . Before you know it I'd have a herd and it would be out of control...lol
Julie
I did look at the mini cows online but they need a friend too..... =0)
just bring them in the house with you like the swiss! lol walkout basement anyone?
on second thought, buy a waterbuffalo. then you can make real mozzarella cheese! OMG
mmmmm. the best pizza in the world, never found stateside. the milk is a little sweeter.
they are just starting to farm them in this country.
Wow, I would need more acreage for waterbuffalo....... lol. I've seen them tackle lions on the wildlife shows... probably wouldn't need to worry about the coyotes...lol
Julie =0)
maybe they're the tame ones? i would hope. im not really sure. but it might be worth it to wrestle one if need be for that milk they produce! lol
WOW, they make miniture cows... thats too cute. I could maybe have a miniture farm, lol
I do hear what you all are saying and you have given me so much to think about. I don't know that I would ever "sell" any of my home produced stuff.. but I guess if you got overwhelmed with product you'd want to do something.
AND, while I knew about the cream on top of milk, I didn't realize you don't really want it all in your milk. So just this little chatter has taught me a lot.. and to realize that I don't even know, what I don't know. Keep the ideas and warnings coming, I'm listening.
Fran
if you had a miniature cow you could take it with you when you went on vacation. what do they produce? a cup a day? lol
hiya ... i would think for ur self .. it may be best to buy a cow already in calf . ( and providing its not the cows first calf ... she should have no trouble during birth //so no vet fees!)
you can milk the cow still and if for some reason you cant get the chance .. the calf will take care of it .
YES the calf will have enough milk .. and the calf will keep her milk coming too .
then heres whatcha do :P Sell the calf and that will pay for the stud fee for a bull or possibly a cheap end of the line bull u can make more babies with .. and so the circle can continue .
now whilst u dont need to heat a shelter .. i think u can get away with some good old hay when its cold .( and if u have a cow n calf ... u should make the milking area with a little pen so the calf can still be close to mum when u milk her)
worming is a must as is pest control for ticks n things of the like ... the price may be a shock at first but with only the cow and possibly the calf to treat .. a little out lay goes a looooong way :D
feeding the cow would be ur biggest cost . and even then one cow wont break ur bank .. un unless u sell the offspring ... buying ur own milk n etc ... compared to the pice of making it .. ... u may come out a head ..
but its all part of the fun in having animals.
n just think ... making ur own milk , cream and butter would be somthing!
i dont know if u have these type of cows where u are , but i would say a Fresian is the best milker... you know ur typical black n white patchy one.
so thats an idea to think about .
and there is a million and one ways to cook an egg and whatcha can do with them .. so get lots of chickens :P they eat table scraps bread and some cleaned wheat n chook food will keep them going fine !
good luck !
emj,
I love your down-to-earth explaination. it does go a long way.
Sometimes I worry that I have romanticized the idea of raising livestock which is why I started this thread, I wanted both the real dirt and the fun/interesting parts. You have provided me with some really good thoughts.
Fran
well fran ,
its true its not all sunshine n buttercups :P
but its an experience ...
i have two mares , in foal , two geldings and a foal
and currently a dwindling chicken flock :( but im working on it .
and a bull .. his a pet .
i live on a farm and im from the city originaly! but its sure providing some great life time stories .
at the end of the day ,
u just weigh up, would u like to try somthing n see how it goes? ( cows will pretty much re sell them selfs if u end up not being able to care for it )
there really isnt too much to worry about from what i know ..
i really do think it will come down to buying a healthy cow .. and i think in calf is best .
worst case is ur going to have to pull the calf if it gets stuck ... but u will have no problems doing it .. cuz u really will have to pull the little buggar outta there .
but .. what are u thinking after all these posts of advice ?? getting tempted ? =D
I would raise a note of caution (more than that, a strong warning) about the idea of keeping a mature dairy bull as a pet. By "dairy" I'm referring to any of the common U.S. breeds: Holstein, Jersey, Guernsey, Ayrshire, Brown Swiss, Milking Shorthorn. I love dairy cattle and was raised on a dairy farm, but a dairy bull is nothing to mess around with unless you have considerable experience and a custom-made facility for handling one. Countless people (and I'm talking about experienced farmers) have been killed or severely injured by dairy bulls over the years. They are incredibly strong animals who have been known to "turn ugly" even though apparently calm and docile, if they become territorial, sense a cow is in heat, or basically wake up "on the wrong side of the barn" one morning. It is danger, more than expense or genetics, that has fueled the widespread use of artificial insemination (AI) in the U.S. dairy industry over the past few decades. For whatever reason, bulls from the beef cattle breeds (Hereford, Angus, etc.) seem less likely to get wild-eyed and dangerous, although even here I would urge great caution. I hope it is working out okay for "emj" in Australia, but I would strongly recommend against a mature dairy bull as a farm pet.
Bdale,
I heed your warning... you make perfect sense to me.
I live in the country with neighbors at least a mile away. Yesterday I rolled through a little town just down the way a bit. I am guessing the population is about 200. I found a house that had 2 cows and a coop of assorted chickens. Seems like there were a few pens for something else but I couldn't tell what would be in there. They also had a very efficient veggie garden. I stopped and oogled, wondering if the neighbors complained and awed at this families self sufficientcy (poor spellers, do they make good farmers?)
emj, you ask where my head is so far.... you all and my research has led me to believe this is do-able, with caution and a dedication to a bit of hard work. They will be some major concessions and things I will have to do on a daily basis, even if I don't feel like it. So I wonder... other than live animals depending on me for their lives... isn't this sort of like taking on the big garden... you have to commit yourself and the weeds (ie milking) has to be done not matter what you feel like.
This is a project (new life-style) that not matter what the decision would not be made until next spring... so for now it is info gathering time.
Fran
Fran, I think your plans and dreams sound great and don't let my post about the danger of dairy bulls discourage you. There are many, many options for you as a newcomer to livestock including chickens, ducks, geese, sheep, goats, cows, and beyond. I'd just stay out of the "bull pen" for now as you make your plans for livestock. Good luck!!
I would strongly discourage anyone from keeping a bull around. They are extremely destructive tearing up fences and gates and anything else they can push or shove through. The price of an AI service is much smaller in comparison.
I've had Jersey bulls that were very docile and currently have Simmental/Angus bulls as clean up for a 100 cow commercial herd. They are not mean but NEVER TURN YOUR BACK ON A BULL. I can't be more forceful on making that statement. They are not animals to be toyed with.
No, this it NOT like taking on a big garden. If you walk away from the garden, yes the weeds take over but there's no harm done. If you don't weed or pick no living being suffers. If you don't milk or feed an animal suffers. This is more like taking on a child to raise. They get fed and milked twice a day whether you have the flu or not, whether you have a function you'd like to attend that evening or a plane to catch early that morning. One thing that is different is that you can yard the cow when you get tired of messing with her and you can't the kid!
I don't want to sound negative either but there's a lot of responsibility and expense involved with animals and not something to jump into willy nilly.
kydaylily...
but I DO take my gardens seriously... and to me if I don't take care then something WILL die and I consider this or any of my garden losses a great loss. I don't believe I was being flip in my comparision.. while I can see that others might not take it as seriously as others I do. My gardens ARE as big a commitment to me as anything else in my life, I did not start digging hoping they would care for themselves... I knew the work involved going in.
I am here to inform myself about the responsibility and expenses so that I know as much as I can before making this decision, one I might add, I am not taking lightly and would never jump into anything willy nilly! With all that said, I am also a little smart enough to know that true experience is what will make or brake me.
And so I'll take all that is said... mix it up with my wishes and dreams, throw a large dose of reality in and thats when I will make my final decision.
Back to the Bull... I KNOW I am not in any way, shape or form have ANY desire to have a bull... the mere thought shakes me... so that will be one for a "vile"
Fran
The idea of have a milking goat is not unrealistic for a beginner. The goat will need tending but not nearly so much as a cow and you can breed the nanny. Her kids would not drink all the milk. You can sell the kids or butcher them and have more milk. The cost is 30% of a cow. Goats need better fencing than cows. They also need a little more shlter in the winter depending on the location. Goat milk is drinkable and there is always the cheese (feta) and butter as side products. I'm sure a goat would be excellent training for someone thinking of having a milk cow in the future. As a boy I visited friends with a dairy farm. They had stern warnings for me about the Holstein bull and relayed a few horror stories about dairy bulls .... enough to prevent me from putting my head over the fence. They are not to be messed with. You keep your distance a from bulls and never turn your back on them under any circumstance. In a pasture setting ...... being on a 4 wheeler puts you in control of the area with cattle and bulls.
Fran,
Apparently I have offended you and that was not my intent. For that I apologize. It's just that down here we find many who go big guns into every animal known to man on a little 10-15 acre plot and soon you see overgrazed pastures, animals in poor condition and for sale signs on land that should have supported no more than one cow but had three horses, a couple cows, and a bevy of goats. Getting off my soap box now and will say no more.
I agree about the bull theory...althought it sounds like Fran has already decided against getting one. An older farmer was just killed by a bull a couple weeks ago. It was one he had raised. His 6 year old grandson witnessed it and the only way for him to get help was to drive the farm truck (did I mention he was 6?) two miles back to the house. It was all over the news. Anyway...just shows how dangerous bulls can be.
Fran, I'm certainly no expert in any of this but had the same dream as you.
Part of the reason we bought our little farm on 7 acres was to be able to grow more and get some critters and the other part was to get our kids out of the city (even though it was suburbia).
We started off small and easy. We bought a pair of bunnies from a breeder so the kids could do 4H if so inclined. We raised and cared for them for about a year and decided we could take on something else.
We sort of lost our senses and got more than 50 day old chickens. LOL We lost a few, sold several and still have 44. I still think we should sell a few more but in wanting to be honest, I want to be positive they are egg layers. People have actually posted locally looking for laying hens.
Our next purchase will be a couple of goats when we can afford proper fencing.
Basically what we are doing, is building up gradually, learning about what we have and making sure we can care for them, one at a time. We may or may not want a cow at some point and I know my land can support 2. I talk to a farmer down the road pretty often and he also raises cows which his niece and nephews show at fairs. His family used to own this place and they kept two cows. They'd get two calves in the spring, sell one come fall and keep the other for breeding which also kept them in milk-pretty much the advice you got above.
My advice would be to start with the smaller critters, see how it goes, see if you enjoy it and if you have the time and energy to care for them. Then you can decide if you are headed in the right direction and add something else. For us that has made things not such a huge chore, trying to care for all sorts of stuff and learning as we go. I'd only get a dozen or so chickens to start though. LOL
Badseed, I have similar experience and identical advice. We started with 75 chickens and now 5 years later I'm in the process of culling them down to a half dozen. Just 20 more to go. Kelly
Our mistake was thinking we'd lose several, wanting several different kinds, and thinking they would not eat much. LOL
The feed bill is crazy ($20/wk) considering the egg production. Professional brown egg farmers ...... cull their birds at 2.5 yrs and mine average more like 3. We're gonna have to start eating a lot more soup but preferably I'll sell the older hens to the locals.
Ok, I am back.
Ky, I have been trying to figure out why I answered you as sharply as I did, it was a reflex. I wanted to be sure that you understood I was taking the entire thread seriously. I have been involved in pet rescue for many years and have seen quite a few horrors, so this venture of mine would not be taken lightly. I thought the mere posting of this entire thread made that point clear. I felt as though you were thrashing me for even having a thought of adopting a few (very few) livestock, when all I had asked for was a little information to make an informed decision. I think had I been head strong I would have been one of those with a for-sale sign that you discribe, but I really did want information first.
Badseed, you did what I had originally thought of doing, just go out and get a few chickens and start there... see what happens. Then I decided to think about it... wondering if I was just to lazy on a daily basis to fit one more thing into my life. Then I my questions started, how many, what kind, what about a cow, what about a goat... and it goes on and on....
Which brought me here to start this thread, you all have given me pretty good discriptions of your own mindsets, what to expect, expenses, chores etc... this was the information I wanted and needed. This thread will also be around long after I am gone and there WILL be another me looking for the very same answers. I hope those people find this all as useful as I have.
first, i'm new to this type of interaction on the web. i have a dexter cow which is the oldest/smallest breed out there and they are not mini's. i also have 12 horses, 1 mini burro, 1 mini horse, 1 pony, 1 longhorn cow, 7 goats and am working on my aviary for my poultry. i plan on 20 or more chickens and ducks (seperate housing). i am retired military and let me tell you there is a LOT of work to taking care, feeding housing and such BUT. i wouldn't trade them for gold. i enjoy sitting at times for hours just watching the interaction, playing and squabbles they get into. all my animals are tame enough that they follow me around when i'm outside like a convoy. the longhorn is so gentle that she protects me from the aggresion of my previous cows during feeding times. i now have 25 acres and LOVE IT. it really feels good to help raise and watch life happening all around. now i'm also working on more flowers and tree's for color. don't get disscouraged by the work because the joy's will outway the sorrows. by the way, i spend over $1200.00 a month on food for my family and don't regret.