Mourning Doves Dying

Howdy from NCentral Texas. First time posting in Bird Watching.

I live on several acres, in deep woods, on Escarpment, SW Dallas Co., with Cedar Hill State Park and Audubon Society Lands (New major "teaching" center to open in 08) surrounding me on three side. I've been here 20+ years. I have many feeders on two sides of my large deck, tree cover from hawks over feeders, where I offer a variety of seeds, nuts, corn, suet, etc. for the birds and, of course the squirrels (and woods rats at night). Also fresh filtered water, with drippers.

This is a birders paradise and I keep good supplies of varieties offered year round. Yes many hummers too.

Among the many birds who feed from dawn to dark are many Mourning Doves. They prefer the Safflower seeds, BTW..

I have no cats and large dogs that keep any strays at bay.

We attempt to be as "organic" as possible around here, on my property. I use neem occasionally on the Brugs, far away from the feeders and occasionally something a little more "harmful" in the greenhouse in the winter. Yard, trees, other plants, air, etc... never get anything but fertilizer (mostly "natural") and water spray; no herbicides but 20% vinegar sprayed on some weeds. I do burn citronella candles or torches some nights after the birds have stopped feeding.

This week three or four M.Doves have died on my deck. No other birds seem to be affected. The first walked up to us as we were sitting on the deck. He was weak and wobbly. He let us pick him up. We offered him water but he was too weak. He died within minutes.

The second was just dead on the deck, found, stiff, in the morning. DH threw him into the woods, down the hill from the deck.

Next day Hilda Rottie brought another one in, stiff. It might have been #3 or she retrieved the one from the woods #2.

Yesterday, mid-day. I noticed another one closer to me than usual on a tree limb and then on deck railing looking "not quite right" and hanging around in one spot too long. They do hang around a lot but usually in the trees near the feeders. Its feathers from the shoulder up to head were fluffed out and not the usual velvety smooth look healthy doves have. It was not acting "normal". Later on it was down on the deck pecking at seeds along the edge of deck. A couple of healthy doves flew down to deck and started to exhibit some bully behavior towards the sick one. Sick one walked away a few yards and healthy ones didn't harrass it any more (no pecking but lots of bluffing). Sick one eventually made it over to concrete bird bath (with dripper), hopped up on edge, and sat there for 10 minutes or so looking like it was drinking, or trying to. It then went into the water, but didn't attempt any bathing; just continuing to, perhaps, try to drink. All the while doing a forward rolling of neck. His feathers from shoulder to head were fluffed up. He stayed in bird bath for 30 minutes, maybe longer (no bird ever stays that long, not even the Painted Buntings who are obsessive about feeding and bathing), but I had to come inside for a phone call. He didn't fly away when I got up from my chair.

While he was in the bird bath one, then another healthy appearing doves flew to the edge of roof near bath and watched him a few moments then one flew down to the bath, took a few normal drinks of water, then stayed on the edge of bath for a couple of minutes, walking around the edge, before flying back up to edge of roof near the bath.

I have not found him this morning yet. My Rottie probably will. I think he was becoming too ill to do much flying.

There appears to be no outward looking trauma or lesions to any of these birds.

Any ideas what might be going on?

Thanks, alice=geekgranny

This message was edited Aug 4, 2007 10:12 AM

Could be their getting chemicals from some other location thats making them sick.

Could you contact Audubon or the State facility? They may want to do a necropsy on one of the birds to find out what is going on. It may also be a virus. As a former rehabilitator I would suggest using disposible gloves when handling them for your own protection.You might also disinfect the birdbath and feeders with a bleach solution but rinse well with clean water.Jane31

Have any west nile cases been diagnoised in your area?

pelletory :
I had considered that they may have been exposed to something somewhere else. My two closest neighbors have cats too. We wondered about some other creature injuring the first one but after second one we decided physical injury probably wasn't the case.

jane31:
I do need to contact some agency. My DH is an M.D. and I'm RN so we are pretty aware of dangers and do keep exam gloves around (and use them often) and did use after handling the first one. I saved the third one. He is in freezer. I'm not sure if the freezing will hamper any of the testing on autopsy though. I haven't yet bleached the birdbaths and will do so today.

fchisolm:
More than likely West Nile is around here but I'll check it out. I thought I had had a mild case two summers ago, and was hoping so as I would then have immunity to it and wouldn't have to be so careful about "keeping constantly covered with repellents". My family physician didn't order a test though on my last blood work. I'll look more in to WN in my area and what symptoms birds exhibit. We certainly do have more mosquitoes this year than previous (and they are bad anyway) due to our record frequent rains.

BTW... Two years ago was the first year we had any issues with fleas. We have virtually none this year but my neighbor (touching properties but house and main yard about 200 yards away) got hit major a couple of months ago. They had never had any problems with fleas. They did use chemicals in the house and yard but I figure we would have seen something before now. I've seen about 4 total ticks on one dog only for the whole year. She's the one who ventures the most into the woods. I think I saw one in that had dropped off a dog crawling in house.

It's interesting to start connecting some things. Two weeks ago Ned Mastiff suddenly developed a gooey eye. DH started putting eye drops with antibiotic in but within a couple of days his cornea clouded over with eyeball swelling. We suspected glaucoma. Of course we made an emergency trip to eye specialist Veterinarian. It was an infection within the eyeball. It has a name but can't remember. He responded to steroid injection into eye, oral steroids, and steroid/antibiotic drops. Eye specialists are unsure what causes this condition, which is usually in one eye only, but sometimes is associated with "Rocky Mountain type" infections; three types in particular. They did blood work and he showed previous "exposure" to RM but not significant to this sudden onset eye infection.

I bring this up because I'm wondering if this sudden onset of dieing doves and Ned's eye infection could possibly have any connection. Although most dogs couldn't reach up to the height of the big concrete birdbath all of my dogs are large enough to do so and do drink daily from it. That's where most of the birds go to drink and bathe.

Thanks all. I'll keep you posted.

gg=alice

Any school bus barns within a few miles? We had this problem a few years ago after they poisoned pigeons that roosted in the barn. They do this often in some places around Houston.

trois:
Any school bus barns within a few miles? We had this problem a few years ago after they poisoned pigeons that roosted in the barn. They do this often in some places around Houston.

I'm not sure. The largest high school in the US is Duncanville, about 7 miles north of us but by largest I'm pretty sure it means largest campus and not student count; Duncanville is about 15 miles south of Dallas . I'm not sure if there are any school bus "barns" in my town, Cedar Hill.

This area of Dallas Co. is one of the major ongoing projects for preservation of wild species in Texas. The Audubon Society has been buying land all around us and is opening a major research and teaching center in 2008, just a few hundred yards from my property but accessible only from another side of town. The Dallas Nature Center (now called something else), trails and wildlife teaching facility, has been in existence for many years in Duncanville and is also on the Escarpment and close to the State Park with lake (a very important preserve for many wild bird species), which adjoins the Audubon and our land and Northwood University's lands. I'm pretty sure Northwood is environmentally active and protective. The leaders and citizens of Cedar Hill, which is growing in leaps and bounds, (Cedar Hill State Park is the second most visited St. Park in Texas; relatively new; opened to public in late 80's) are working very hard to preserve and protect the natural and unique qualities of this area, the environment, and the wildlife and habitat, as expansion continues. If any of the bird poisoning is going on "the right" people need to know.

gg=alice

Lots of bird people are not in favor of pigeons, as they are not native.

Around here all over and in the old, historic, part of town we have Doves where you would expect Pigeons. We rarely see Pigeons except under the highway bridges.

BTW... Some years we have Inca Doves. They are really cute. This whole year I've only seen a couple. Haven't seen any Downeys this year either.

We see few Robins, except at water in winter and only rarely, grackles or starlings (who pig out only on the suet), occasional brown headed cowbirds at seed feeders, mostly in winter, and occasional red winged blackbirds at seed feeders year round. Jays virtually don't visit the feeders. Mockingbirds come in near the feeders but don't eat from them.

Our largest "groups", feeding en mass, are Cardinals and Mourning Doves. They feed from sun up to sun down year round with many more hanging around close by in the trees. Lots of hummers mostly hanging around and guarding or chasing, with only one at each feeder at a time, except during winter migration when they will occupy all ports, allowing those hovering, waiting to drink, to hang around very close to the feeders.

"Lots of bird people are not in favor of pigeons, as they are not native."
I know and they can be a "problem" but lots of people derive a lot of enjoyment from them.

Besides the health issues from hoards of pooping pigeons, and them slamming in to car windows under bridges, which probably causes accidents, are there any problems with pigeons threatening the survival or habitat of native birds?

Around here, in the woods, lots of us go on "common honeysuckle" stripping rampages as it is not native and gets way out of hand and threatens the trees. Coral Honeysuckle is native though, but I have yet to see any growing wild around here, but not as prolific as "common honeysuckle".

gg=alice



gg=alice

When they poison the pigeons they always get some doves also.
We have many Incas year round. They just kill the pigeons because of the poop, but some officials seem to hate all birds.
We have a lot of invasive honeysuckle and some native coral.
The invasive honeysuckle blooms year, the coral not yet this year.

You are located "way down thar", more in the Inca Dove natural area you lucky person. I think we are supposed to be a bit out of their range. That's one reason I love so much seeing them.

This past Feb or March, while my friend from the Yucatan jungle was visiting, we spotted a yellow with some black, bird, pretty good sized, that I couldn't identify from any of my "North American" bird books. It visited the deck for only a short time, only that one day. We didn't see it go to the birdbath. We both agreed that it looked very much like a real common bird she has down there in the jungle.

I can't remember all the details now, about the bird, but it definitely wasn't supposed to be here. That was fun.

No more dead doves brought in by my "ratter", Hilda Rottie (rats are her usual prey along with occasional bunnies and opossums-she doesn't seem to go for live birds, thank goodness), nor have I spotted any sick ones today. Maybe this shall pass.

The Mastiffs keep the armadillo population down somewhat or scare them off as I only scared me and one 'dillo, in the middle of the night, last year, when I went out, in the dark, to visit and enjoy one of my Brugs. I hadn't seen one for years or any signs of their rooting for years until last year. (Yes cars aren't the only armadillo predators.) (Want to know why the chicken crossed the road?.... To show the armadillo that it could be done.)

gg=alice

We hag herds of dillies last year. Few this year. If it gets dry, they will come to the watered areas.

Makes sense. Last year was the first year that I had Brugs AND bananas in the ground so I did a lot more "general" watering than normal. What looks like grass out there usually has to fend for itself. With two year drought I sure picked the wrong time to put water hogging plants in the ground all around. I'm embarrased to reveal my water bills for the summer. The water department visited me a couple of times but didn't give me any formal warnings or citations. I doubt that my water bill, though, was any higher than neighbors who have larger open areas with "real" grass. Folks around here don't report each other and most of the houses can't be seen from the road for "water police" to easily spot. At least virtually all of us water at night.

I've got to get a well dug and put up more gutters for water collection and convert to grey water.... probably need to win the lottery first.

gg=alice

We are in an unincorporated area with our own well. Our water table is very high, all aquifers full in this area, as are all lakes.

Yeah, our lakes are refilling, after two record drought years dropped them drastically, and record rains this year. I'm up at the top of the Escarpment, at least 500 ft higher than the lake but some of my land tapers down a a few hundred feet going towards the lake. Problem with digging a well in the "bottoms" is getting equipment back there. I can't even get through it in summer, and only venture back there after winter has finally settled in and killed back a lot of stuff, usually some time in January, and then it is still a struggle. No wonder this is a prime birders area; the birds have lots undisturbed habitat for miles. I wear heavy snake chaps to protect my legs from the briar and brambles. Machetes bounce off this stuff. In a tropical jungle at least you can do some hacking to get through areas.

Anyway, is the cost of drilling mostly contingent on the depth they have to go? Can it be done with less than heavy equipment? I could use solar for pumping but water would have to travel a fair distance and up a few hundred feet if we drilled "down there". Sure would be more practical if we could drill up here on the hill, if depth wasn't a considerable factor in cost.

For years I've contemplated damming up steep drop-off down the hill from our house, that is a natural runoff for our main "hill", to create a pond or "tank". I have been afraid of attracting too many snakes though; main reason, too, is I would have to do all the labor carrying the stuff down the hill. My DH would then really think I'd finally, totally lost my mind.

gg=alice

We in the coastal flats and most of the wells are 120 feet.
Building a dam on a ravine is probably the most practical there.
I wouldn't worry about snakes. Almost all are harmless, and most are your friends eating rats and such.

UPDATE

No more sick or dead Mourning Doves since the last sick one spotted (but no carcass found or brought in by Hilda Rottie).

We had, at first considered, that maybe our resident Copperhead got the first M Dove. It does hang out all around the edges of deck (progressively elevated as the drop-off drops down)(our "wild" comes right up to deck on two sides and within about 10 ft on third side) and under it where the Doves spend a lot of time feeding on spilled seed. But after watching the last one take a whole day to die I don't think it was snake venom which is usually fast acting. The Rat Snakes (ornery, sometimes aggressive appearing, which is actually them "standing their ground", and willing to strike and/or bite just about anything, but not "venomous") definitely eat birds, even good sized young chickens (we had to rescue a big Rat Snake at a neighbors that had gotten into a chicken pen, eaten a chicken with resulting bulge about 6"- 7" diameter, and then couldn't get out), but I doubt 3 or 4 Doves could have gotten away from a Rat Snake, who wouldn't live long if it was that poor a predator.

We certainly have all kinds of snakes including Western Diamond Back, Copperheads, and Texas Corals that average 30" and our pet, "captive born", Cali King Snake, He-she. It's a fact of life and we had to adapt to it very fast. Lots of dog Copperhead bites, over the years, and one GIANT WDB bite on a visiting dog (Neapolitan Mastiff). It was touch and go for a few days but she survived. It got her on the top of head, right above eyes. When the swelling subsided the measure between each fang mark was almost 3".

We are very careful and always carry a flashlight at night even if it is to walk to the car in dim lighting or darkness; no "barefoot" around here especially at night. No reaching into dark/dim places, without probing first, and without a flashlight, even if in the house.

The first month we were here, Sept 86', house was built in '74, we had a baby WDB in the house. Copperheads, although not aggressive, are very comfortable with our presence, and don't scare away easily. We've occasionally had one come in the house. Last summer, late one night, while DH was out of town, me home alone, a good sized Copperhead was curled up, strike stance, on one side of my threshold of door to kitchen. I had been going in and out for a while doing plant and bird chores. As I took my last step before stepping up, Annie Mastiff gave me a warning. It probably would have gotten me.

They take their time moving off my Trex deck or pool decking. Last year Hilda Rottie probably killed or mortally wounded, my "resident" copperhead, right near the house. I like to leave one alone as they are supposed to be pretty territorial, so hopefully, letting one hang close will discourage more visiting or passing through. Anyway, last summer, one evening, I told Hilda to leave that snake alone and, "that snake gonna bite you". It did, right between the eyes, and I didn't see it again for the rest of summer.

This year, a few weeks ago, middle of the day, one was moseying across the Trex deck, right outside the kitchen door, hanging by the door, before going under my table and hanging out, forever, under my favorite bird watching chair. Hilda took one look out the door and high tailed it back in the house. It took it about 30 minutes to cross half the deck even with my urging it to move faster. I did get some good pictures and digital movies. I'll recognize this one for sure as its pattern was "broken" over the back.

When the lake, Joe Pool, was filling we had the largest WDBs I've ever seen (and I've seen a lot of big rattlers) cruising around or moving across the property. It was so bad we seriously considered bringing some King Snakes in to help control the population. But they declined more and more as each year passed. Last year was the 2nd year of record droughts around here. I hadn't seen a WDB in about 10 years. I found one, a baby, drowned, in the pool skimmer basket. During the drought we saw many, many, Hog Nose and Rat Snakes all around the immediate area of house all spring/summer/fall. Those two years we got to observe a pair mating, same place each year, in ivy by the pool.

Until last two years' droughts I had several sightings of Corals each summer right up near and around the house, and in the yard. Saw only one last year and one the year before. None spotted this year. They like the softer sand near the house foundation and under the shed.

This year we've had record rains. I've seen only one snake; this years resident Copperhead. But I do find various shed skins around. Although the Rat Snakes are 5-7 ft. the shed skins are much longer if intact.

I surely wish my Rat Snakes would increase in numbers; it would help to keep the woods rat population down more.

gg=alice

Here we just basically have Cotton mouths. They get to be very aggressive as they age. My big red dog was killed by one. Bitten on his tongue, died in minutes. DW has had to shoot several as they came after her by the lily pond. They have killed just about all of our King snakes and Rat snakes. I have posted a picture of one eating a King snake.

I have not seen a single snake this year, but if it starts to dry out a bit, they will start moving around. A large Cottonmouth bit me on the forearm about 3 years ago, but injected no venom. I hurt for a while but no swelling, so I just cleaned the 2 holes and forgot about it. Not a problem.

Thank goodness for smart snakes who don't waste their venom on something that is not prey. I've seen rattlers give dry bites to mice when they weren't hungry. When they do inject it takes just seconds for the mouse to die.

I hate getting bitten by a snake (it is so yucky to even think about) but so far no venomous bites to me and not any bites as an adult. And my pet King Snake, He-she, has never even attempted to nip. I don't handle him when he is in feeding mode and feed him in a special box; not his regular terrarium and then dump him back into the terrarium because he will strike at any movement at that time.

So sorry about your Dog. What a horrible experience to stand there unable to do anything. How big was your dog. I lived in fear of WDB bites to dogs (they say a young rattler is more dangerous because it doesn't know how to withhold venom) and kept antivenin that I carried to the vet and if I had to take in multiple dogs, common when I had more and more young dogs, she borrowed some from a hospital. Before I left for vet I would give them ampicillin and benadryl. If the swelling didn't increase by the time I got to vet then we knew it was Copperhead; no further treatment other than antibiotic and benadryl at home. BTW... I have 200 lb Mastiffs, Rotties, and a Briard. The only Copperhead bites until last year were always to Mastiffs. Their size helps. Hilda Rottie's head swelling developed pretty fast. Now every time she comes up from under the deck rubbing her face I watch her like a hawk but I hope she learned from her experience.

Now when I'm sure it is Copperhead I don't even go to the vet. DH is MD; I'm RN.

Antivenin can also kill via allergic reaction. Once when I took three in, when we still had more than just occasional rattlers, I allowed a "visiting" vet to give one of my dogs the antivenin, against my better judgment. He almost died from the allergic reaction. The visiting Neapolitan Mastiff, about 160 lbs, and obviously a WDB bite was so shocky when I found her I had to stop at a vet on the way to the Emergency Clinic to get fluids started in her. After that we kept fluids and kits here, just in case. I keep injectable Benadryl around and AnaKits (me, allergy to bees, and developing to Red Wasp, but thank goodness not to Scorpions or FireAnts which are far more numerous and everywhere) but I don't know if AnaKit would help with snake bite. I'll have to look that up.

If I got a venomous bite, even a Copperhead, I'd be certain to call 911 really, really fast, and go lay under a tree until they got here as the dogs probably wouldn't let them in.

gg=alice

My big red dog was about 90 pounds. His tongue swelled so big and fast he suffocated.
When I was bitten, I was picking up trash down near the bayou when bit. I had to walk about 1500 feet back to the house, and by that time no swelling and the pain was gone, just a couple of holes about an inch apart in my arm. I was home alone at the time and knew it was a dry bite. The next day I had Dr.s appointment and showed it to him. He thought I should have gone to emergency, but I asked what for?

He laughed and said if venom had been injected, I wouldn't have been able to drive myself anyway.

trois

I was just reading that some people have had anaphylaxis from non-poisonous snake bites.

This is a spider haven around here. I'm walking through webs constantly and get bites a lot; usually not even knowing until I get an itch and/or a bit of swelling.

We don't use much of any insecticides except for Neem, mostly on my Brugs, inside or out, and occasionally find brown recluse in the house; lots of scorpions; luckily no BR bites in 20 years; knock on wood. A little DE around edges of rooms seems to help somewhat. DH did, a little while ago, spray under the eave where we have to walk to get to yard because Red Wasp have made a new hole after I had it repaired and sealed up last year. They drop down on you when you pass under them.

BTW... my closest neighbor and I have had more "stings" this year than total of many years before. Wonder if our "record" two drought years and "record" rains this year have anything to do with it? And I've seen some Bumble Bees this year; they've been scarce for a few years. Sweat Bees too; lots. We have no lack of honey bees; about normal, no reduction of wasps and hornets and mud daubers, that don't sting btw. Have a "new black" wasp we haven't seen close to the house, in past, building a paper nest under the eave. We, so far, have only taken action against the Red Wasps, that just started stinging us last year (We tried "organic" spray last year with no success). Of course I have to take down some hummer feeders, which really confuses and "ticks off" the hummers. The others, including hornets aren't nearly as aggressive. I've been living peacefully with the RWs for many years, even clearing a 30 ft X 10 ft brick wall, completely covered in jasmine, with hundreds of RW "helping" me with no stings. They just started being aggressive towards us and the hummers last year.

About 10 years ago I got a Black Widow bite; determined it was that via my symptoms, which lasted for many hours. Didn't feel the bite, no pain, just dripping hole on my chin that wouldn't stop dripping. Didn't even know it was anything serious for a couple of hours, went to work, and immediately had to return home. Forgot what I took as far as meds but we called my Neurologist and he happened to be on call in ER. Didn't go in but DH stayed up all night to make sure I didn't go into respiratory failure.

Yesterday, went out to do something minor to pool. Within minutes was having symptoms of more serious spider bite; pulse up about 40 beats/minute. Didn't feel any bites. Took Benadryl (and Valium as I was so darned uncomfortable). Slept for a few hours; DH keeping watch. Then felt fine.

Paradise (and our bird sanctuaries in Texas) is not only a lot of work; it's darned dangerous.

gg=alice

I move the big Golden Silk Orb Weaver spiders near the wasps nest, and they keep the numbers down. I don't get stung much anymore.

Hey, thanks for advice. I'll see what I can find after the "quick kill" residue dissipates some.

gg=alice

So a few minutes ago I went out to mow some, and immediately got stung on the back of my hand. Didn't see it, feels like a yellow jacket.

You need to be "knocking on wood" more, perhaps.

Of all the wasps we have I think the Red hurts the most and actually causes a small scar on me after the scab falls off a couple of weeks after sting.

Luckily, in all the years out here, knock on wood, a hornet hasn't gotten me. I don't know what that feels like, knock on wood. To me the Red's sting is worse than the Scorpion on certain parts of the body, knock on wood, and Red stings even cause muscle sorness on back and calf muscles (my most recent stings) that last about a week.

Yellow Jackets seem to be especially aggressive towards noisy motors. Until last year the only time I ever got stung by Yellows or Reds was when I put my hand down on top of a fence post (I'll never learn I guess) or on the grass while working on plants. Last year was the first year that we've lived here, over 20 years, both DH and I got stung by Reds who attacked aggressively, seemingly without provocation, and they've lived in my eaves and cracks and crevices, close by, for ever.

We really don't like to kill any bugs because they do offer some balance. I do smush Scorpions as they are crossing the room but have a few (tiny) regrets each time I do it. If they would only stay in the walls and attic they would be safe (and so would we). And it's really hard to stay on top of the cobwebs in the house. Don't get me wrong I'm not a PETA person but do consider the insects we have out here as mostly beneficial. I don't have regrets about smushing the occasional Brown Recluse we see in the house though. There are plenty of other house spiders to do the job.

We can't be poisoning anything that the birds eat, of course, with the exception of the Red Wasps who are attacking us at the eave. Luckily, the birds don't seem interested in the ones that have fallen down from the area. AND when the "fast spray" kill dissipates I will find the proper spider to move over to that area.

gg=alice.

This message was edited Aug 9, 2007 10:34 AM

This message was edited Aug 9, 2007 10:34 AM

Scorpions we don't have. When we lived in Oklahoma they were common, but the stings were mild, less than a bee. (to me, my dad thought they were the worst)
The most painful to me was a Carpenter Bee. I thought I had been shot, and it bled a lot. This was in Houston.
Most of the Brown Recluse spiders live in the very heavy and dark brush thickets. Since we have carved out the yard we want, I don't go in there any more. We left a lot of heavy brush for the wildlife.

Same here. There are many parts of my property I haven't been on for years, even near the house. When I do take an expedition, it's an all day process including dressing and preparing to struggle through, at a very slow pace, even in winter. AND we're talking just a few acres here. Surveyors hate working out here and charge immense amounts of money to go into the "wilds". There are so many tress they can't use their global positioning devices very much.

I grew up in Kentucky, Bluegrass, but family members in the mountains, and spending a lot of time at our family cabin, lived for a while in Ohio, spend considerable time in the jungle in the Yucatan, but I've never encountered anything as hard to get through as our undergrowth. Early settlers pretty much avoided this area and went around instead of trying to go through.

This area was pretty much untouched by real estate developers until the State Park and Lake went in the the mid 1980's, opened to public later in the 80's. Cedar Hill, which was the first Dallas County seat, until a tornado wiped it pretty much out in 1800's, and moved to the "city" of Dallas, was very much a rural community until the mid 1990's. Heck, in the early 70's I lived on a small farm just 7 miles north of here and didn't even know this "one of Texas' best kept secrets" even existed.

gg=alice

We are about 35 miles South of Houston, but you would never know except for the "Northern Lights" from Houston glow that rarely allow complete darkness.
We can stand in the road for a long time and not see a car. Dead ends 1/4 mile either West or North. No road to East. Northern boundary is Dickinson Bayou, which is not polluted at this point, and also not very big. About 25 feet across, 6 feet deep, and flowing like a creek pretty fast, except at high tide.
Our house can not be seen from any road, and is hard to see from the yard. But we know where it is. lol

trois