Help me help my potential Black Swallowtail cats!!

I've been lurking in this forum for a while, but since the last batch of beautiful black swallowtail cats in my garden seemed to disappear, I want to help the next batch to survive. I've been seeing this beautiful mama on my dill plant all afternoon, and I do believe she's laying eggs. PLEASE, anybody who has done this before, tell me: when will the eggs be large enough to actually see? can the eggs at that point be prey to the many bees and wasps always in that dill plant? at what point should I bring them inside and what should I use to house them in? I've got a big plant of dill, and SOME parsley, not a lot; what do I do if I run out of these plants? once the dill flowers turn to seed, they'll be no good to the cats, right? I know these are dumb, newbie questions, but, though I've always loved butterflies, I've always thought "nature would take care of her own"; reading thru the posts on these forums, I've changed my mind about that!! I think these poor creatures need all the help they can get!!! I'm going to continue searching for info on the 'net, but any help ya'll can give me will be greatly appreciated. You guys on DG are always a big help! Thanks........

Yay thea! They do need our intevention, the odds are really stacked against them.

The eggs can be seen or do you have a magnifying glass? Predators can get the eggs, so it's best if you can put them in a safe place when they are eggs. You can put them in a butter container, make little holes in the top, until they get a little bigger, then you can make a cage, there's a sticky on what to use and how. Or, you can buy a mesh cage online.

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/744103/

The BSTs are the easiest to raise because you can go to the grocery store and get Dill or Parsley and they will eat it. Be sure and wash it well, in case there's insecticide on it.

Go for it thea, you can do it!

Thanks very much miz fly_girl!!! That link will give me lots of good info, and I'll look for my magnifying glass first thing in the a.m. so I can search for the eggs. Thanks for your encouragement! I've enjoyed butterflies all my life, so it will be good to do something FOR them.

I just watched one lay eggs the other day. When she was done I went over and inspected my parsley. The eggs look like little tiny white perfectly round balls. A milky clear.

hey fly_girl,
will they eat flat leaf parsley (or go to it) I have a lot of them on my curly leaf parsley but none were layed on the flat. i dont know if there will be enough curly to go around.
dawn

You're welcome thea! Good luck!

pd...I'm not sure, you can just try it, or find some curly at the store. I had always read they won't switch from Dill to Parsley, but mine did, in my butterfly cage. I think if it comes down to Parsley or starve...they switch. I'd think it would be the same with the flat or curly.

thanks!

thea, from your picture, looks like you caught her in the act of laying eggs! I just brought some eggs inside myself for the first time. I raised my first cats when I noticed them on my parsley. I put them in several different cages until I finally got the one I liked. I think it's best to start with small cages like butter containers and progress to larger ones as the grow. I did buy a large castle from MonarchLive.com to put them into to pupate. I'm waiting on four to emerge in that large cage.

Good luck and know you are doing a wonderful thing helping increase the bf population!

Deborah

Hey everybody, don't give up on me, I need immediate help!!! I'm all in a tizzy and can't even get a good photo because I'm so nerved up (okay, plus I can't figure out how to do a good close up with my camera). I guess I have more than just brand new eggs (which I still can't seem to find!) but I have some new cats as well! Maybe I should focus on THEM for a while, since I'm a first timer. PLEASE tell me what I should run out to get to grow these guys safely. We don't have any specialty stores around here, but we do have a WalMart, any thing you think I could find there to use as a safe haven for my cats? There are SO many wasps around in my dill, I want to get these guys safe ASAP!!!!!! I'll continue reading all the links ya'll have given me, but anything else you can throw out to me will be GREATLY appreciated. I wish I could bring my computer out with me so I could swat the wasps away while I watch this site!
Okay, I think I just got a decent photo. Can ya'll verify that this IS a BST baby? I've only seen the cats in later stages. Thanks in advance for your help!!!!!

Yes! Looks like the 2nd instar!!! And the wasps and cardinal birds love to eat them. Does your walmart sell fresh parsley? If so, you could get or make a small cage and hand-raise them! Trust me ...... when mama finds a host plant to lay eggs on, you will find many more babies (if the predators don't beat you to them)!

Oh Lord, I have LOTS of wasps and LOTS of cardinals. What can I use for a cage that I might find in my small town?

Most nurseries sell butterfly raising kits. Cost around $40.

thea, you can put them in almost anything, especially inside. It doesn't really have to be enclosed if it's inside, at least until you can find something. A big basket with some netting tied around it would work. Or a big plastic conainer, then put netting over the top. I know it's nerve wracking, but anything will help them keep safe rather than leave them outside on the plants. They really don't have much of a chance then.

They'll stay pretty much on their branches (in this case, the branches of dill) won't they, I mean they won't be boogie-ing all around the house and climbing up the walls or anything? I know what the ole hubby is going to say as soon as he comes in and sees the containers I know have on the kitchen counter: "You're NOT bringing those WORMS in the house!!!!".......... So far, I've picked the branches of dill that seem to have the most cats, I don't want to get in over my head with my first try. I've got three slim tallish ('bout 5 inch) plastic storage containers with the branches in them, 2 containers with 8 cats each, and one with 5. I have a big collapsible fabric dog carrier with mesh openings, and I was thinking about lining it with newspaper and putting the containers in that, does that sound okay? Then I have to figure out the best conditions within the house for them. I have a lot of reading to do!!! And everybody on DG is such a big help!!! Looks like I have cats here in several different stages, I hope they don't cannibalize each other. I also collected 4 eggs and put them in a separate container. I just HOPE I'm doing everything right!!!!

I have a small bug cage and you can make all kinds of cages using Rubbermaid containers. See this link:
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/643281/

I don't think they cannibolize each other, mine haven't. They will stay on the plants until it's time to pupate. If you don't have a container they can climb up to, just put a stick in a vase, move them to it, and they will pupate on that. Several of mine pupated right on the dill stalk in my cage. You are doing just fine!

How are you doing with them? You could get small holes tulle (really small) form the fabric section and balloon over the whole plant. Tie a string around the bottom. it may not stop the babies from crawling out (although mine never did because they wanted to stay where the food was) but it will geep the birds from being able to get to them. I also bought more than one parsley plant. kept one outside until it got eggs and then brought that one into the patio and put the other one outside. The store bought works just as well to. I even stick it into the pot so the butterflies and cats know no difference. I prefer them eating the store bought stuff so it gives my plants time to regrow before the next batch of butteflies show up to lay eggs. With all my other tyoes of cats, I take the eggs off the plants and put them in tupperware and they all do just fine until they are big enough to put in a cage. No holes necessary. there is enough oxygen in the tupperware and have yet after 2 years lost a cat due to suffocation. ;)

Flutter

I just have to pipe in here Thea. I kind of know what you are going through. As I have dill planted and am kinda hoping I get some cats to raise too though it makes me a nervous wreck to think about it. You are doing such an awesome thing here helping these beautiful babies. Just do the best you can, try not to freak out and don't kick yourself if you cannot save them all. Best you can do is all you can do and sounds like you are doing an awesome job. Makes me happy to read about it.

Leslie

You're so right Leslie, I AM a nervous wreck!! It's a big responsibility, isn't it, to take over another living thing's life, even for the best of reasons. I just went out to get some florist's foam to put in the bottoms of my containers, to stick my herb branches in. I'll take it step by step, and keep on reading!!! Will they do all right in the house? What temp would be best for them? Thanks everybody, for your help and encouragement!!!!! Dave's Garden is THE BEST!!!!!

When the larvae get bigger you can rear them in 10 gallon aquariums with mesh wire lids..........or those plastic sweater storage boxes.

DiOhio, how many would you put in a 10 gallon aquarium?

Okay everybody, please will you take a quick look at my photos and tell me if I'm on the right track: I put some florist foam in the bottom of a plastic container, put some water in, covered the top with paper towel (so the cats can't fall in and drown), and made some small holes to poke the stems thru. There's a total of five cats on these 4 sprigs.....

....really, the little guys ARE there.....

Then I was going to put my containers in this collapsible pet carrier (we used it for transporting two cats in when we moved to SC, that's how big it is). It's got mesh on two sides, with a mesh zippered opening. Does this sound practical to you? The safest place to keep it will probably be the spare room over the garage. The room gets filtered sunlight thru the blinds and is quite warm. Is that all right for them, or should the crate ideally be outside?

It's pretty big!

Thea, it looks like you are well underway. That little cat house is adorable and looks perfect. I think upstairs sounds like it would work. I am in Florida and I often bring the cats inside. it does take them a little longer to get thru their stages as they molt faster in the heat (or seem to anyway) but the sun in your room sounds good. I tend to just place a moist foam block into the cage with them (I don;t have it soaking in the water bowl just so they (cats) don't go swimming. For my frits and monarchs, I just keep throwing new leaves in there and don't even bother with the foam. They eat them before they even have a chance to wilt. (That is when I have lots of leaves at the beginning of the season)

Flutter

Thanks Flutter!! The frits and monarchs eat that fast? Wow!!! Turns out we got the wrong kind of foam at WalMart (I should have put on my reading glasses to read the label but I never knew there was foam JUST for silk or dry flowers); this stuff doesn't absorb water so it's not going to help the dill stalks to stay fresh! We'll have to go out and get some other stuff tomorrow. So you're saying, when you throw the leaves in for them, they will just climb all over them, they don't have to be standing vertically?

The cats like it if the plant is upright. But there is no need for it to be. They are just gonna eat it whether it is standing or laying down. Just make sure it is fresh every day. If it gets too wilted and dry the cats won't eat it. And I know that most plants start wilting the minute they are picked from the plant stalk. :-)

Oops, i almost bought the wrong one last time too. What i do is cut slabs off the ends, like slicing thick bread so the whole block isn't used.

What I usually do is find the babies and put them on a fresh leaf. then i just lay the leaf in the tupperware bowl. They crawl all over it until all that is left is the vein. I usually change their leaf every day or two as they don't eat it all when they are that small. But when they are about a week to 1 1/2 weeks old, they scarf it down in about 2 days. I right now have 7 monarchs just born and 1 egg, 12 queens babies, and fritillaries 1 cat and 11 eggs. In a casing I have about 14 frit cats already about a week old. I have a really cool molt from them. it looks like the cat was scared right out of its skin (It isn;t all squished like always)

Becky, I don't know why but my plants when I pluck the leaves usually don't wilt except for today. After about 15 minutes, my milkweed leaves were awful. I was dumping them anyway but was shocked at how wimpy they were.
Flutter

Are they outside? With the heat we've had lately, I wilt going out in my yard for 10 minutes!

True true. I guess what happens is when I pluck my leaves and put them in the tupperware, I leave them on the screened patio. It is shaded. The ones that wilted were pulled out of the ground and sat in the sun for a few minutes when I noticed how aweful they look.

So you are sebastian. i am Port St Lucie. Do you know of a cool place to get plants like you are finding further North from you but closer down here by me? I want passifloras and plumerias that I can't find at home Depot

Flutter

Flutter - It's really limited down here in Indian River County. If I want native host plants I have to go north to Brevard County. Sorry I have no recommendations. :-(

But how do you get the little cats from the old chewed or dried up leaf onto the fresh sprig? You don't actually touch them do you? I'd be so afraid of accidentally squishing them!

Just take the leaf it is on and place it next to the fresh plants. They will crawl over to the new leaves. When they get bigger you can carefully remove them from old and place on new.

Wow yall, I've been so busy today I missed this thread.. I was also making a thread about the cat cages I came up with, LOL.. http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/747907/

I bet the idea is included in the page Becky posted up there, but oh well.. It is a great idea!
Thea I had some foam my mom had given me and it turned out to be dry foam too, no wonder it wasn't soaking up any water, LOL @ myself good on that one!!

Welcome to the world of cat raising Thea.. I hope we can help you with anything you might need, there's a lot of super cat raisers in here helping you already.. Whoohoo for DGers!!

:-Deb

Thanks Becky, Thanks Deb!!! I just looked at your new thread Deb, your ideas are good. I wish I had a few of you guys to pop over tomorrow morning and give me some hands-on guidance, I'm totally lacking self-confidence. Can you be here, say, about 10? I'm SO afraid of harming these poor little creatures.

I was thinking about you while making the thread there, we just hadn't met yet, LOL. It really is so easy, even a cave gardener can do it, haha!

The cats that can be together can fit comfortably in the large rectangle all the way to eclosing about 3-4 per container. They come in packs of 4 so thats enough for at least a dozen. Containers $3, A small amount of see through knit fabric with is only $5.99yd,(4 containers will only take 25 cents worth) some wet floral foam, you already have. All totaled 4 cages under 4 dollars. Just follow the pics in the thread. 1-2-3 Ouila!!LOL!

I wish I could come right over and make them with ya, really!! Just plug away at it like all of us have been doing, you will be very confident real soon, I'm sure of it!

:-Deb

This message was edited Jul 13, 2007 8:10 PM

After reading this, I just went outside (its dark) and checked on mine. In a matter of 2 days, they have completey devoured my curley parsley plant. i have more planted in another pot. Can I move these to it?

Yes Dawn! That would be a good idea! They will travel though, but could get stepped on or something else in the journey. If you have birds, they birds will get the 2-5th instar Black ST cats, especially Cardinals. I bring them in when they get their stripes, and the single 2nd instar band has sloughed off. Leaving cats like that outside can be heartbreaking for me. I actually saw my Cardinal with a 4th instar cat in his beakflying up from my parsley patch th the fence... Caught him red handed.. I know they love those cats. So does Robin and Mocker.
I cleard out some seed brush from my patch last week.. It had gotten very tall and less leaves, more seed. I checked it thoroughly for cats several times and caged what I could. Then I set the bundle of parsley brush near the bird feeding area. I let the birds go through that and find what I couldn't. Even as the brish was turng brownish, a female BST still came by and laid eggs on it.. sheesh! I save what I can see every time nowdays.

:-D

Ok, well I moved them to my big pot of curly parlsey and flat leaf parlsey. My pot is so big, I don't think I can pick it up. I'm gonna try to find some kind of netting i can put over it. I have the pot sitting beside some elephant ear plants so they are kinda of hidden. I know they ar not 100% safe but they are somewhat seculded. It will have to do until I can get the netting.