I am digging some new beds, on a hillside. The soil is awful. Generally I have clay. But in the new beds we are digging, it is very hard and rocky (it took a pickaxe and a strong step-son to break it up), and when broken up seems clumpy, rock hard and almost slightly sandy but totally lacking in organics. I plan to plant a perennial/shrub border there, of tough resilliant plants. The hill covers the roots of an ENORMOUS white oak. Over the years I have gotten a border going over some of this hill, so I know it is do-able. The oak's roots are not near the surface.
I need to amend the soil, though. I don't like using peat moss because I understand it is not sustainable.
I also don't want to spend a fortune on amendments -- it doesn't need to be great soil, just ok. I have a lot of hill to work on, and it could swallow lots of bags of expensive stuff if I let it.
And I want something that won't break down immediately, because I don't plan to do this annually.
My compost pile is about empty for the season, or I'd use that.
I can get access to horse manure. Maybe I should just use that, letting it sit out a few weeks to decompose. That is what I am leaning towards.
Any other ideas for amendments that will not bankrupt me would be greatly appreciated!
Suggestions for inexpensive amendments to improve awful soil
We pile our horse manure in a huge pile and let it compost for a year. You want it to heat up to kill hay seeds. I don't think letting it sit for a few weeks would be long enough, it would be pretty hot from urine and the hay seeds would still be viable.
I may have access to some that's been sitting at the stables. I am planning to have a few cubic yards of black sand delivered. My question is, can I add the horse manure to the soil, and if so, in what proportion? Or should I just use the manure? The beds I just outlined, and stripped off the sod (kept for compost), I don't want to deeply dig them because of the maple tree roots, maybe just loosen the soil a little. Thanks.
I use whatever the heck is around. Leaves or straw (run them over w/ the lawnmower first), wood shavings w/ chicken poo, grass clippings, wood chips, pine needles, pine cones, etc. I usually throw a shovelful of rock phosphate and greensand down as well. I don't turn over my heavy clay, but use a pitchfork to gently loosen it six inches down (rock it back and forth) and then pile on the above, water well, and let the worms do the work. In the years after that it's just mulching and the occasional side-dressing. The soil structure quickly becomes complex and good, and it drains well and is much, much richer.
what do you use the rock phosphate for?
Because this is on a hill, the usual approach doesn't work quite as well -- there tends to be a lot of erosion, except to the extent the plants can get it going. So I'm really dependent on adding a lot of organic material. I have a very good compost pile, but it is a passive pile, and this year's gold is almost all gone. Next year I'll be in great shape on that front!
I'll check with the stables to see how fresh their various manure heaps are. I'd expect some is fairly well composted. . . .
I use the rock phosphate for a little extra phosphorus.
If erosion's an issue, I'd try a cover crop like buckwheat that you can just hoe into the soil later (rather than actually till). It'll keep the soil in place, and fix nitrogen.
You might try "hole composting" with your table scraps. Literally, you dig a hole and just chuck in your table scraps. They will break down over time and attract the worms you need to help aerate and churn that soil. The worms don't actually eat the stuff. They eat the organisms that eat the scraps. Also, a GREAT additive is used COFFEE GRINDS. The more, the better, because they serve as a green or brown (I forget which one). More importantly, the worms love 'em and will move in faster than putting a sign out for free rent in a Florida condo!
Try it. Here's a link to the hole composting explanation.
http://www.lewisgardens.com/compost.htm
I have terrible clay also, & I've been doing sheet or lasagna composting-newspaper or brown packing paper, topped w/ compost, shredded leaves, grass clippings, peat, whatever I can get my hands on. I also use all my veggie trimmings-dump them in a covered plastic bucket, & put them in the compost heap weekly. My county has free mulch, & I've used it alot in the past (this season, I haven't-I finally got my own compost pile started).
cheapest way is to have a soil sample tested. i am willing to bet that that soil is better than you may think.
I also would like to get more organics, but without your own pickup or trailer it's limited. I bet the farm will have some older spots in their piles. Horse manure seems to be the only free bulk organic stuff around here.
I got County mulch once, but it was really rough and nasty.
We rented a chipper once when we had a lot of branches, but it was big and heavy and a pain. However, the stuff that came out would be great to save or mulch with.
My vote would be to amend small spots with old manure where you can plant something but get mulch in bulk and pile it on or dig some in. Plant more later without having to disturb the whole surface.
By the way, I have humbled myself twice now at a Starbucks in Target by asking if they save grounds, only to get the blank stare.
Some Starbucks definitely do, because we have brought home a lot of used coffee grinds from them. Just keep asking at different Starbucks. I did kill a plant I loved by putting too many uncomposted coffee grinds on it, so do be careful.
Sounds like manure is my best bet. I may rent a Zipcar pickup truck this weekend and bring home a load, if there is a pile of older manure available.
Len, it definitely needs amendment -- it won't hold moisture as it is. Even the weeds aren't too fond of it.
Sally, we have a good chipper-shredder, and it was a great investment. At then end of the season, we'll shred whatever is in the pile of compost/dead leaves. I actually drag up my neighbor's leaves if I can get too them before the County picks them up. By the spring, it is the best dirt imaginable, with essentially no labor since we never bother to turn the compost pile. Much better than what I can buy. I use it for container plants without any amendments.
You can also rent chipper-shredders.
I, too, have heard that the County mulch has problems, so I'm reluctant to try it.
That forest fines/wood chips/shredded bark mulch would do the trick...but if you use it as mulch instead of mixing it in the soil, you will have great soil in 2-3 years and stop any erosion at the same time. It will also suppress weeds, keep the soil moisture more even and be an all-around good looking mulch while the shrubs fill in. It would NOT cost a fortune, but would be more expensive than the other poster's ideas above.
Suzy
sallyg,
try bringing your Starbuck's store a 5-gallon bucket with a lid, and asking them to dump the grounds there for you. ....
Suzy: I know I could go the forest fines/wood chips/shredded bark mulch route, but sometimes I feel as if the yard is just chewing through all our cash. Soon it'll be time to address the lawn, which means aerating ($ of rental), new seed (not cheap), and then I always top dress with purchased soil amender ($100+). And I want to get a number of new shrubs ($$$). Not to mention the perennials to fill the bank I am preparing. (And the fact that the house should be painted, etc.) Plus we have a very long border, at least from my perspective (maybe 100 foot long by maybe 20 feet? I don't know), all on a slope. Most of the front half has been planted for a long time. But my goal this season is to plant the back half. I really can't see buying enough forest fines/wood chips/shredded bark mulch to take care of all that. Plus I don't plan to put in anything fancy -- I have a lot of hostas that have reseeded over the years and are very tough -- I thought I'd put in a log of them to block the weeds. And some spiraea. There are already some azaleas. I just want something to give a little interest from the back half -- it'll be up high.
Zeppy: Is the buckwheat an annual? Does it self-sow? I don't want to create a bigger problem with weeds than I already have, but I could try overplanting with the buckwheat those areas that I don't get to right away.
Call your county extension agent to see if they have suggestions for the soil in your area. They may also test your soil for free. They will tell you how much manure to add.
Plant some brown eyed susans, purple coneflowers, and maybe gooseneck loosestrife. These three plants have spread like crazy in my yard. The purple coneflowers even reseeds in my stone driveway which is compacted clay under the stone. I had to cut a lot of it down because we couldn't get out of our cars last year without stepping into the flowers. I started with one or two of each of these plants and in a few years they have spread like crazy. Drought resistant too.
Those are indeed great plants! I don't have enough sun for a great showing of Echinacea, though, in the areas I am fussing about -- I've tried. Though in past efforts I don't think I watered enough, and I hope to put in a home-spun irrigation system. Gooseneck loosestrife does a little too well. Susans might work, and I love them.
I have a lot of plants in containers ready to be planted, once I get the soil improved! One bed has been dug and amended with peat moss (I feel a little guilty, though, about using that) and I'll plant that bed this weekend. Then bit by bit I'll march through the border.
I'm planning a lot of no big deal hostas (the big deal ones go elsewhere), and daylilies. Perennial geraniums. I have several Hakonechloa. What else? Hmm. Some sedum. Some monarda, though I don't think they'll make it. I want to put in some Knock-Out roses or the like. A lot of shrubs -- spiraea do well, and there already are some azaleas, though I haven't watered them enough so they are shrimpy. Maybe St. John's Wort. At the bottom, in a little area where it gets sunny, some strawberries. Ajuga and sweet woodruff for ground covers.
Because the hill is steep, I have found a lot of plants that are fussy about the relationship of their crowns to the soil level don't do well, because erosion tends to change that relationship quickly!
You may want to reconsider the ajuga. I planted one little plant in my shrub bed and it has spread all over my lawn. There is tons of ajuga where the grass used to be. Not that I care, I don't need a perfect lawn.
hey Gymgirl, had to tell you-- I tried one more store and got lucky. They were practically embarrassed that they hadn't saved them ; they said they don't get the request much. One young lady dumped all the grounds she could find , gave them to me in a bag, and promised they'd save more for me.
So there- you done me good! Thanks
I think purple loosestrife is an invasive alien, at least in MA it is.
Happy, buckwheat's a warm-weather annual. http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/31447/ I'd direct any more penetrating questions about it to one of the reviewers linked, 'specially Farmer Dill. He knows just about everything. I just like buckwheat. :)
Happytrail: I know the ajuga spreads, but I love it. I'd actually be happy if my lawn was just ajuga, though I do dig it out of the lawn and relocate it . . ..
I know it's a long-term thing and doesn't do you any good right now - but compost is hard to beat.
My rocky/clay Ozark garden soil was just awful, and it's taken years to make it good. We've got oak trees on our place, and I've got a grass catcher on my riding lawnmower.
Alternate layers of chopped-up brown oak leaves and green grass clippings break down into some great compost. I've made and tilled in, literally, tons of it over the years - and in the long run it sure makes some good dirt.
Ozark: I agree completely -- my compost pile is just empty right now! We ended up adding a lot of peat moss, and I'm planting the hill right now. Just came in to check PlantFiles to see how some of the plants I'm considering will grow.
This year I planted most of my container plants directly in compost, and I've been very happy with the results. Not to mention the cost!
so many plants so little time-
happy see this for another groundcover- next post.
edited to remove annoying uneeded link- sorry!
This message was edited Jul 17, 2007 10:56 AM
Sally: You apparently have to be a Comcast subscriber (which we are not) to get to that site. Do you remember what groundcover it was?
Carroll Gardens newsletter- I go see and get back...
Copied and pasted from Carroll Gardens Newsletter.. I hope thats OK.....
Alan's Favorite Ground Cover for Sun
For years, I have considered Aaron's Beard, Hypericum calycinum, a form of St. John's Wort, to be the best of the sun-loving, low-growing ground covers. More disease resistant than Blue Rug Juniper and far neater than Cotoneaster! The roots of Aaron's Beard form a tight, intertwined soil-holding mass even on steep banks and, once established, the foliage mass, only 15 inches tall, is dense enough to leave little space for weeds to get established. In summer, Hypericum calycinum is covered with butterfly-attracting, bright yellow 2-3 inch flowers - most notable for their prominent clusters of hundreds of stamens with reddish anthers.
Aaron's Beard is easy to grow in any well-drained soil, with no significant insect or disease problem in my experience. It is tolerant of both seashore and road salt and it is deer resistant. Aaron's Beard is evergreen in mild winters and in the warmest parts of its range.
'Brigadoon' - A New Aaron's Beard with Bright Yellow Foliage All Year Long
Normally Hypericum calycinum has grey-green foliage. 'Brigadoon' has eye-catching bright golden yellow leaves; and the new growth is tinged with apricot. Brightest golden color will be achieved in full sun. Brigadoon will perform well in part shade, but the foliage color will tend more toward chartreuse.
Use 'Brigadoon' as a ground cover or in masses in the border foreground. It is particularly handsome massed in front of shrubbery in the foundation planting. In large plantings, 'Brigadoon' can be blended as a tapestry with straight blue-green leaved Hypericum calycinum.
Planting and Care
Zones 5-7 ,
Deer resistant and salt tolerant.
Plant in spring or summer (not autumn in Zones 5 and 6).
Space 12 inches apart.
Choose a site in full sun or light shade. In Zones 5 and 6, for maximum evergreen foliage retention, site away from the worst of winter's drying winds.
Not fussy about soil as long as it is well drained.
Water well until established.
Fertilize in spring with Plant-tone and Kelp Meal.
Have you looked into Leafgro? I have heard of people in Maryland getting the stuff very cheap...like $10 per yard. I have purchased bags and it is great stuff (but $$$) and places around Northern Virginia sell it for around $35 per yard. Delivery prices can be a killer but maybe you could beg a friend to borrow a pickup.
Here is a current page at the Maryland Environment Service website with info on Leafgro: http://www.menv.com/leafgro.shtml
- Brent
Oh yes. I bought one of those at a deep discount price last year for tattered plants. It didn't make it through the winter. But it would be perfect for my hillside. I need to find a vendor that charges less than $8 a plant (plus shipping) though, which is what Carroll charges -- though then again, Hypericums usually propagate really easily. I'll have to prowl around the local nurseries.
Brent: I have bought literally hundreds of dollars worth of Leafgro -- I put it on top of my lawn each year after overseeding. Then someone explained to me, and this made sense to me, that it is too finely ground to be an effective organic addition. And it is true that it is quite finely ground. I am a big believer that soil should be chunky. Something called -- I don't remember -- Chesapeake Gold, maybe? -- was recommended to me as being a little less fine, and I've used that too. I'm not sure what I'll use this season.
But I did buy it by the bag. Never occureed to me it could be purchased by the yard. My "lawn" is in the back yard, which is a longish walk, plus a flight of stone stairs, up from the driveway, making bagged soil a little more convenient.
There is a local guy that is supposed to make good compost in bulk. His company is "Pogo." I exchanged emails with Bob Shirley last summer [bob@pogoscompost.com]. He emailed me at the time that I should call Mary at 301-774-2968. I didn't follow up -- just got too busy. Here's the article in the Post, but it mentions a different guy, Clarkson Sherwood Jr. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27754-2004Jun9.html. See also http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/04/28/DI2006042801096.html?nav=topnav (look for Pogo). And http://www.plant-trees.org/news/2006fall.pdf.
There is a website -- http://www.pogoorganics.com/ -- but it isn't really up and running. It gives yet another name: Kevin John Richardson. I don't know if these are all related entities/people.
But I may try to pursue these leads before the fall grass-planting season . . .
This message was edited Jul 10, 2007 4:11 PM
Hi Everyone - Interesting reading. Wow Happy, you sound like a very busy lady. I am sure that you will get things worked out evenutally. I have some hardy plants for you to try on your slope. I will bring to swap and donate to you or would love to trade for sweet woodruff(?) or whatever the very lovely ground cover that you so graciously gave to me at the swap. I really want to have more of it.
Things that have really taken off for me and I would love to donate to you are: lariope, sedum autumn joy, lambs ear and a couple that I need to find out the names of. Sorry that I don't have much to add regarding amending the soil. We use old cow manure and boy to the plants love it!!!!!
Okay, a storm is heading in. Need to scoot. Take care everyone.
Ruby
Ruby: I dmailed you!
Happy, I've had awfully good luck in my heavy clay soil tossing out some fishing worms from the bait store, and then using about 4" of shredded newspaper (or sheets, but the shredded breaks down faster) and topping that off with about an inch of some nice-looking bagged compost. By the next year the soil drains fast and is a WHOLE lot richer. But I don't wait to plant in it---I plant right away. If I have a lot of weeds to deal with, I use the sheets, but this year and last I've been a shreddin' fool. I bought a used strip-shredder off ebay that I can do a bunch of sheets at a time with, and it's a LOT easier than using the flat sheets, and the worms like it better, I think. I also plant comfrey, which can get out of hand a little, but the bees love it, and it's easy to pull, and it breaks up the soil really well and seems to really help my compost----and I have a compost-making bunny, too.
I hear that those composting bunnies are really good at their jobs. ha-ha Cute.
Ruby
Hi Happy - Two things. First of all, regarding the "Ben" day lilies. We found out that Ben stands for the last name of Benzinger. Benzinger ran a local nursery for many years but sold out last year. The numbers just stand for the number of lilies that my in-laws bought from Benzinger Nursery. Not sure if you can find anything on Internet about Benzinger or not.
This weekend is Andre Viette's Famous Day Lily Festival in Fishersville VA, which is within short driving distance from me. I am not certain whether we will attend or not. The Viette's host both radio and TV programs and have written many books.
My husband John, my sister in law and two nephews visited Viette's Nursery last Sunday afternoon and attended one of the seminars that he holds regularly. When I mentioned to John that you were looking for inexpensive soil amendments, he brought up an idea that might be of some help to you regarding your planting spaces. I believe that it is a well known fact now that you have mainly shady areas. John said that Andre' Viette talked a bit on Sunday about thinning trees in order to get more sunlight. Is this something that is possible at your place?
After hearing the talk, there is one ugly pine tree near one of our beds that John is going to work on at some point in order to have more direct sun. As I think about it, I have almost the opposite problem from you in terms of shade. I need a bit more of it actually. I have fried a few things this summer by planting in too much sun.
Anyway, I wish you luck with getting the slope fixed. I am sure that it will turn out fine for you.
Take care.
Ruby
I'm thinking newspaper too. I just dug potatos and before refilling the hole I'm going to add some newspaper. and whatever current kitchen scraps.
When I went back to starbucks for grounds as promised, of course there are many employees, and the one who promised grounds didn't get the message spread. In this location/area, one would have to be dedicated to this to get it going- or get a job there. I can't commit myself to a regular pickup, much as I'd like to. I'd rather go shovel horse manure. I't's always out in a pile, no hassle.
I have done the Starbucks thing a few times and I have figured that it would take several trips to get the equivalent of a $5 bag of compost so it is not worth the hassle for me. Plus I am often tempted to purchase a drink, so bags of compost work out to be cheaper than the "free" grounds.
They do not automatically set aside grounds at any of the Starbucks that I have tried. What I did once was to stop by on a Monday morning and tell them that I would be in every evening that week to pick up grounds. A guy wrote a note and stuck it behind the counter. 4 out of the 5 days they had set aside a bag of grounds for me. Afterwards I realized that they were just setting aside the espresso grounds so if I do it again I will specifically ask for them to save the coffee machine grounds as well. I have thought about talking with the deli in the office where I work about coffee grounds but I do not want to commit to taking a bucket of grounds home every day.
By far my best free soil amendment has been the shredded leaf mulch that Fairfax County offers. You can do the same basic thing by shredding your own leaves...especially if you have a bin where you could store some over the winter. I ran into a guy once that said he was making compost with shredded leaves and Starbucks coffee grounds. I also use a lot of the free shredded wood mulch from the county.
BTW, Sally: so you think you could remove the long comcast link in your post above so this thread is not so wide?
- Brent
Wow- done! I didn't know that's what was doing it. Sorry!
We're ditching comcast this week anyway, for verizon.
Convenience matters.
Fairfax sounds more gardener friendly than Anne Arundel. I went for mulch once. They made me go to the top of the nasty real dump, where the garbage trucks go. Stinky. And the mulch was very rough. I hear that varies with maintenance of the shredder,. Maybe season, too. Next time I have spare time- ha ha ha- maybe I will sugggest they maintain a NICe mulch pile near the residential dumpsters, where homeowners go.
Wood-chip mulch. Around here, our electric companies send crews around a couple of times a year, trimming trees away from the power lines by the roads. One of their rigs is a big power chipper on a trailer that chips up limbs and blows the chips into the truck that tows it.
If they're working nearby, and if you ask, they're happy to dump those chips in piles on your property - as much as you want. I guess it saves them driving to wherever they usually dispose of the chips.
I've been using those wood chips as mulch for years. It doesn't last too long as mulch because the chips are from living, green wood. It makes pretty good compost in about a year.