what lies beneath...

or how well do you know your soil mix?

i prefer to root in small containers. sometimes i use 16 oz cups. i decided to see just what my soil mix looks like below the surface.

i bought clear 16 oz cups and put drainage holds in the bottom. first, i put in kitty litter to keep the soggy soil at bottom away. then i added in my mix. what you are looking at in the pic is different sides of the same cup. you can clearly see that the soil does not distribute evenly in the cup. that is to be expected, right? notice the bad side that has finer particles and the good side with many air spaces.

dete

here's another cup with a plumeria rooting in 100% special kitty litter from walmart. this is one of the last kitty litters on the market that is 100% fired clay. it's fragrance-free and non-clumping. you can see that there a many air spaces for good airflow.

i'm testing this out as an alternative to rooting in 100% pumice since you can get a 25 lb. bag of this litter for $2.50 at walmart. it really holds in the cutting once you wet the kitty litter and let the water drain. however, drop the container in water and the cutting comes out w/o a fight. in theory this should make it easy to remove rooted cuttings with little or no root damage.

Detrick,
this is very interesting - I don't remember what forum but someone posted an interesting article on drainage in pots, and said some very germane things about soil mixes. Thanks for posting this.

allgr8dogs - you're welcome! my curiosity got the best of me. i can't root plumeria like most normal growers. LOL i always have to know what's going on behind the scene. the kitty litter is an experiment. people are probably wondering why anyone would want to root in clay. you just have to consider the particle size in the mix. i'm dealing with mm sized particles and not the microscopic particles found in clay soils. this is evidenced almost instant drainage in the 16 oz with kitty litter.

dete

Dete, what do you mean by "different sides of the same cup"? I don't understand why one side of the cup would behave any different than the other, unless the medium just wasn't thoroughly mixed.

Kitty litter? I'm not laughing. Great idea. I think that's Turface, essentially...fired clay. Turface holds it's weight in water and never breaks down. Lots of people use it as a component of potting media. I've always thought it would be good for plumeria. Now I guess I need to go to WM.

SB - i mixed it as thoroughly as i could. sometimes i think i over-mix. the finer particles end up at the bottom of the pale. the mix does drain well and has good moisture retention though.

i decided to give the kitty litter a try when someone recommended it to me for pond plants. i had been using our native clay soil. it would eventually smell very foul after being submerged for a season. i figured it was do to the lack of oxygen able to course through the medium. it is cheaper than the schultz aquatic plant medium so i gave it a try. the pond plants look better this year! i had heard about turface, too. i didn't know that it was similar until people that use it told me that the kitty litter was essentially the same thing. i don't know what it's moisture retention is like compared to turface. i do know that it's cheap. only $2.54 for a 25 lb. bag. score!

i'll post my rooting results as plants root in it.

dete

Dete, I found it interesting that you mentioned rooting your plumeria in a clear plastic cup. I recently read an article on the "Valley of the Sun Plumeria Society" web site. You may be familiar with it, but in case you are not, this is the site:

http://www.azplumeria.org/growingroots.htm.

Here is another article, you may find interesting:

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/nursery-weeds/feature_articles/physical_properties/physical_properties.html

I have used kitty litter (the Walmart unscented) as a substitute for vermiculite in some soil mixes. My experience may be different from yours because our climate is so humid. I had to watch the amount that I put in the soil and be sure that it drained well. If I put too much in the mix, the mix would be too wet and would take a long time to dry out because it absorbs a large amount of water. This would happen especially if I used another media that was fine and filled in the spaces between the clay. This was more of a problem in the winter when the air was cold and damp.

In our area, it can absorb a fair amount of water from the humidity.

As a result of the first article, I am trying to root a cutting right now in kitty litter in a clear palstic cup; however, I am not watering it at all. And if I find it necessary because the cutting dries out later on, I will carefully measure the amount of water that I add. I have not cut drainage holes in my cup.

I am thinking also of trying another experiment - soaking the kitty litter in transplanting solution (with a root stimulant), letting it dry out and then rooting the cutting.

I look forward to learning your results.

This message was edited Jun 25, 2007 10:14 AM

hi hose,

that's my first time seeing the vally of the sun plumeria write-up on rooting. i put drain holes in my cups because i water the cuttings, especially if they are on a heat mat.

i will be testing out the kitty litter in my soil mix and will keep you posted.

dete

Dete, from my experience, you have to be careful if you water frequently and use kitty litter. It is clay and if you water frequently from the top with any pressure, you will have erosion of fine particles that will settle at the bottom and sometimes slows drainage. These finer particles fill in the space between the larger particles and hinder drainage. You have to water gently. The other alternative would be to to set the cups in a saucer of water and let the clay absorb the water from the bottom.

Joe

This message was edited Jun 25, 2007 9:18 PM

hi jose,

i sifted out the finer particles for the rooting cups and i do the latter of the watering techniques you mentioned. i just dip the cups in my "pond" until all of the kitty litter is wet and then i slowly pull the cups out. thanks for more tips!

Very interesting stuff.
In the spring, as the article states from the AZ plumeria Society, I can put a cutting in a black pot add moist potting soil mixed with perlite, and not look at it again for 45-50 days and 90% of the time I will come back and it will be ready to go. But with the temps we are having here now, I have to water my cuttings almost everyday. If I don't, they shrivel very quickly and are hard to get back to normal. If I don't water on a regular basis they also desiccate right at the soil line. I wonder if the Kitty litter mixed in, instead of the perlite, would allow me to water less, and have less desiccation because of the water retention? What do you guys think?
Davie

hey davie,

man, that's a tough one. i prefer to err on the side of recommending a mix that dries out faster. i consider having to water frequently better than waiting a while for the soil to dry out. JMHO however, at the same time i don't want to be outside watering my plumies everyday. it's definitely a balancing act.

i just mixed 2 parts nature's way cactus mix and 1 part kitty litter. i did not sift the kitty litter this time! the mix drains fast and has air pockets but not as much as the mix w/ pumice pictured above. i have no way to gauge this but the water retention appears higher.

my advice is to experiment and find what works for you. gulf surge should be heading up the sea of cortez and right into your backyard soon. hear comes the monsoon!

davie,

i have seen the dessication on cuttings that are kept moist, too. i think that comes from too much sun exposure and heat build-up in the pot.

Joe's comment speaks generally to the importance of uniformity of particle size in the mix.

This weekend I'll see if I can get some kitty litter and do some porosity testing on it and the perlite.

Davie, if I am not mistaken, the kitty litter holds about .8 times its weight in water.

You could try soaking it and draining it before you plant your cutting and carefully measure the water you add to it. You will know by touch if it is moist.

Also, I bought some clear (hard) plastic glasses at the Dollar General and drilled a hole at the botton. The advantage here is that you can see the contents and determine if the their is a uniformity of color in the kitty litter. The one I have is greyish when it is dry and brownish when it is moist.

Joe

Thanks for all the info. You guys a bunch of pretty fart smellers. Or is that pretty smart fellers?
Davie

Davie and all, I have to water nearly every day also. I've started adding bark and/or coir to my mix for added water retention, and I am using a more moisture retentive mix this summer. My farm supply guy gave me some stuff to try. It is called Zeba Turf and Ornamentals. It is a natural corn starch-based soil amendment that is supposed to hold up to 400 times its weight in water to provide an "on demand" source of moisture for plants. It is supposed to be 100% biodegradable, nontoxic and is odorless in the soil. I haven't used it yet for fear that it will make my mix too wet in the winter when the rain comes and nighttime temperatures are cold, but I may try it out on some of my larger trees when they get transplanted to 25-gallon containers.

i've often wondered if my mix retained water for too long, because it amazes me that people in texas and socal have to water almost everyday during the summer. texas is very humid and socal is somewhat cooler and a tad more humid compared to arizona. i water no more than 3x per week. perhaps, it's that they get more direct sun exposure in these other places and hence dry out faster.

comments?

I water mine everyday during the summer. Even the cuttings. The only ones I don't, get shade 1/2 day. Those I still have to water every other day.
I would change my soil mixture to something heavier, but like Clare, I am afraid that the soil would retain too much water during the cold winter months.
That is why I found your kitty litter idea so interesting. I think it mixed with potting soil would hold water better, because of the clays ability to retain water, than my use of potting soil and perlite. Although the Kitty litter would still make the soil porous and drain well at the same time. If this makes any sense. When I get back from Vacation I may have to try this out.
Davie

Davie, you have to experiment with the type of kitty litter you use. Some crumbles easily into finer particles and you can't handle it very much when it is wet or it will turn into a mud that takes forever to dry.

In the South our soil is clay based and we have to add a lot of organic material to break it up and make it workable. I had solid clay in my yard and it took me three plus years of adding organic material to it to get it in good condition. You can add gypsum to clay soil. It has the ability to penetrate the clay particles in heavy soils and loosen the soil structure. This process then creates air and moisture spaces that eventually loosen and break-up the soil structure. I wonder if adding some gypsum to the kitty litter would help.

Clare, your Zeba Turf and Ornamentals sounds interesting. How expensive is it.

I wonder sometimes if we condition our plants to require too much watering. I find that if I give my plants a superficial watering then I have to come back the next day and water again. If I give them a good soaking, which takes longer without an irrigation system, I can go a couple of days without watering.

Jose, I don't know the cost of the Zeba as it was free as a gift from my farm guy, but I have a feeling that it is not inexpensive. My farm guy said that it is widely used to keep the grass green on golf courses in Southern California. I think you are right about the watering. Since I have to water over 600 plants, my hand watering is not a deep soaking but a fairly superficial watering most of the time due to time constraints. If I notice that a pot has become so dry that water will not penetrate the surface but builds up at the top, then I will spend a longer time watering that particular one more deeply. If I miss a day or two of watering, my mix will become very, very dry, and it is hard to re-wet again without a good soaking.

joe - you brought up a good point. i'm a soaker. LOL that's why i dont have to water everyday. if i had as many plumeria as clare and others then it would be a lighter watering.

davie - make sure you buy the special kitty kittly litter in the red bag from walmart. it is 100% fired clay. it will not crumble or become mushy. i needed a hammer to crush the shards! this particular kittly litter is reusable.

i see callous tissue on a kitty litter cutting 10 days after potting it.

dete

Hey all..
The kitty litter (Clay) version is a old hydroponics method...
They have since upgraded to special clay balls which i use in some of my soils..
Like Dete said litter is much cheaper if it only contains the clay..
The clay balls are different and are multi-layer and are not super water retentive like litter..
In fact the hydro guys here only use clay balls and nothing else in the pots..
They grow plants in these special pots with hugh drian holes or pots that look like old laundry baskets and water the plants using the drip system..
For clare and others with that many plumies if you don't get hugh amounts of rain like me everyday you might want to check out the drip system..
I have the same system in my GH...
Basically it's a long black tube (100 feet) and it comes with short black tubes that look like straws..
You just punch one of those straws in the main line and stick the other end in your pot..
You can punch anywhere you want so it doesn't matter where your pots are at..
You can use a timer and a 50 gallon container to water your plumies or do it manually..
I do it manually to control my watering and because i use special nutrients every now and then..
;=)
I flip a switch and 850 plumies in my GH get water at the same time..
Otherwise you can go and break your back by hand watering..
Lol I am sure Clare knows what i am talking about..
;=)

Do I ever, Robert. I have a string of 50-foot soaker hoses in front that I just turn on and walk away, and that does save me some time. I wouldn't mind putting in a few more or those or going the way of the drip system that you have. There are some areas that I have to hand water unfortunately. Watering is such a pain sometimes. We've had the smallest amount of rainfall in about a hundred years this year. That makes everyone nervous with fire season approaching. It sounds like you have a neat set up, Robert.

Wow Clare thats dry...
As you know we had one of the worst droughts in Florida's history..
Then in 1 single day we went from drought to non-stop rainfall!!
It has been raining everyday since i took those acid rain pics..
;(

So sorry about that, Robert. I heard Texas is getting hammered too.

Clare, Dete Robertand anyone who may be interested:

I found some Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil at Home Depot (10lb bag $6-$7) It is more expensive than the kitty litter, but it looks like it will last much longer. It is ceramic type soil. It's the same size as the kitty litter, but much harder. It is supposed to retain nutrients for plants to absob and hold oxygen.

I soaked it with Miracle Gro Quick Start Rooting Solution and let it evaporate until it was dry. I bought some clear hard plastic glasses at the Dollar Tree store, drilled a hole in the bottom and I am using those as rooting tubes. I like this plant soil because it holds the cutting firmly in place and yet allows air to flow through it. Also, it will drain well if I have to water. The clear glass lets me see what's going on inside. (I got the idea of using the glass from the Valley of the Sun Plumeria Society web page.) So far I have not watered them any. I can see some condensation build up on the side of the glass just from the moisture that is absorbed from the atmoshere and unless I see the cuttings start to show signs of desecation I do not intent to water. I may mist them every once in a while.

From the feel of the soil it looks like it will be easy to lift the rooted cutting out by submerging it in a larger water container. I think I read somewhere that Jim Little roots his cuttings in sand and lifts the rooted cutting out of the sand this way.

joe - sounds exactly like the experiment that i'm doing with kitty litter that i outlined above. keep us posted.

a friend has had the special kitty litter submerged over a year in her ponds and it hasn't broke down. i imagine that it will take fired clay time to weather.

You know they sell clear plastic pots in Home Depot..
Check the paint dept because painters use them...
;=)

hmmm...i'll check the next time i'm there. i've seen the white translucent one but never clear. thanks for the tip.