in the past i've read and even disected a plumeria flower to see everything that was described. I have never been able to get a plumeria pollinated tho. I see a few of you get seed pods on urs. do u manually do it or allow mother nature to do it? If u do it HOW do u do it? whats the easiest way to and/or the common way? I went thru 26 pages in this forum and all the pages in the propagation forum and nothin.. lol.. i'm surprised it hasnt been covered more in detail.
Pollinating
Hi shokwave, pollination is covered in the Eggenberger book on plumerias. It is very difficult to do, and only a few of the great hybridizers have been able to do it successfully. My understanding is that the sexual parts are very small and hard to access. The pollen of a flower has to be removed first to make sure that the flower does not pollinate itself by accident. After pollen is transferred, the flower has to be sealed up to prevent natural pollination. The parts are so small that thrips are said to be the natural pollinators. Most pods that occur are a result of either self-pollination or pollination by thrips. Here is a picture of the plumeria parts that Dete took, showing the reproductive parts.
Edited to give Detrick credit for the photo.
This message was edited May 31, 2007 11:56 AM
Here is the page on pollination:
Someone said on Garden web that his wife has seen that the Monarch Butterfly also pollinates the plumeria.
Mickey
I got one seed pod on one I believe is Celedine but I didn't do it! LOL
It did pop open the other day and still had 14 seeds left on the pod. I don't know if there were more that got spread or not. There weren't any others in bloom at the time so I assume it pollinated itself either with or without thrips.
I breed lettuce and do hand pollination all the time. I tried all last year to pollinate some of my plumerias with no luck. I have the book that Clare is referring to and it was some help, but still unsuccessful. I searched the web about a yer ago and found a guy that sold a "tool" to pollinate plumerias. It looked like a meat injector with a very long narrow tube attached to it. It did not explain how it worked very well, and I was not about to shell out the bucks for something that was so poorly explained. I do not remember the name of the product or the company. If anyone has been successful, please, I also would like some help.
Davie
i remember reading somewhere about using a hypadermic needle somehow.
I recently saw this method by Lindell Tate
" I used coastal hay that we get in a bale for the horse. I would carefully look at several pieces and try to get ones that were rather thin and I would also try to used curved pieces on flowers that were curved. They need to be thin enough to easily be slipped into the flower and not too thick as to damage the flower.
Lindell"
those who use this method seem to have great results... just go from one flower to another to transfer the pollen. Hay has a frayed end so it is able to pick up multiple bits of pollen and distribute to several areas in the flower... just be gentle.
Tammie
For some of my other flowers, I use artists paint brushes. You can moisten the tip slightly for better pickup. I imagine you could try a thin detail brush.
Tammie, I saw that reference to the hay on Plumeria Pals, and it is ridiculous. It is unscientific, and there would be no way to tell if he is self-pollinating or not as he doesn't remove the flower's own pollen first. There is so much mis-information on Pals these days. It is hard to read so much bad advice.
Any insect that can be a pollinator would have to have a long probascus.
That is correct Clare. It would be hard to know if it was a self pollinated plant or a hybrid in the hay method. The only way to tell would be to grow all the progeny to maturity and see if the flowers are different from the parents. This could take years. Only to be disappointed if the cross pollination didn't work. This method is good for pollinating plumerias if your goal is seed, and not hybridization.
I wonder if prior to trying to move the pollen from the male parent to the female parent, you washed the female with a sterile water bath, if you could get rid of the unwanted pollen? Might be worth a try, but again time would be the only way to tell how successful you are.
dbrooks, I think the plumeria flower has both male and female sexual parts within one flower. I think you would have to cut open the flower and carefully remove the pollen first, making sure that none is spilled.
You are right about the hay. A good jarring of an inflo will even do the trick if one is just interested in seeds. The only thing is that, because of the large number of genes, a plumeria flower can look totally different from its parents so you really could only be sure of the seedpod parent unless you know that your hand-pollination technique was successful. You are right that it would be a bummer to wait 3-5 years just to get a white with a yellow center or a near duplicate of the parent plant.
I have 40 seedlings that are three-and-a-half years old. Ten of them have bloomed so far so I need the other 30 to bloom this summer. Some will be stubborn and will make me wait until they are four-and-a-half years old or five years old. It is a waiting game with seedlings. I've had some great-looking flowers and some white with yellow centers too. I wish I could be more help to you about pollination. It is just not an area that I am familiar with.
clare - that pic is not from Eggenberger's book. i took that photograph in 2002.
bill moragne, one of the pioneers of plumeria hybridization, discovered that pollen must be delivered to the underside of the stigma. simply dropping pollen on the top will not result in pollination.
If noone has mentioned it yet I will.
To beging hybridyzation,
First a good reliable seed seeting seed parent must be identified.
Just because a plumie has flowers by the ton doesnt mean its a good seed producer.
I reccomend Pink Pansy for the seed parent.
Secondly, Now pick your pollen parent!
Even if pollination is succesful it doesnt mean itll produce a seedpod.
It is arduous work and takes a lot of practice to master hybridization.
There is much speculation about self pollinating or this bug or that one being the tool of fertilization.
I say try try try and keep trying till you get it.
Good Luck!! ;)
Clare,
Your pink seedling is beautiful!!!
Mickey
Clare, yes that is true they hold both the male and female parts of the flower. As do lettuce plants for example. In lettuce if I can wash the pollen from the female flower to be, before the female parts fully emerge and accept the pollen, I can use the pollen from another flower as the male parent. I use another flower, and only wash off the pollen. This is the water check. If no seeds form in the washed only flower I know it is likely the other flowers done at the same time are a cross.
With that said I do not know if the washing method would work in Plumerias. First the reproductive parts of the plumeria are much further down than in lettuce flowers, so the water does not drain readily. Second its hard to see in the flower, even with a hand lens, again with the reproductive parts being so far down. This makes it hard to tell when the pollen is starting to be produced, and needs to be removed. So Clare, maybe you do have to cut the flower open. I may try cutting the flower open for inspection. After cutting the flower open, I am going to try washing the pollen with sterile water then pollinating. I will try the dry method also, as explained in Eggenberger's book. I wont be able to try for a while, only common whites and yellows are flowering.
Clare I have about 500 seedlings that are almost a year old. I have at least 2 years more before they flower, I feel you frustrations, and anticipation.
Malestrom thanks for the tips.
If anyone else tries before I get to, please let me know your results and progress. When I start I will do the same. I will try to take some pictures, in case I can make it work.
Dete, you mean that you took the first picture and labeled the parts? I thought it was from the Eggenberger book. I'll give credit to you for that in the future. That is good to know that the pollen needs to be delivered to the underside of the stigma.
Michael, Florida Colors Nursery is in agreement with you and has felt that Pink Pansy is a good parent too and has gotten some awesome cultivars from her, including Marion B. Kukiat sent me some Mary Helen Eggenberger seeds, and that should be a good one too. Thanks for the tip.
Thanks, Mickey.
Davie, it is awesome that you have 500 seedlings! You might be surprised and get a handful to bloom for you at Year 2, but more will come Year 3 and Year 4. They say that if a seedling hasn't bloomed by Year 6, you should toss it, but I'm not sure that I could do that. I know someone that waited 22 years for a seedling to bloom. Good luck with your pollinating techniques. I look forward to reading about your results. It sounds like you have the tools to succeed.
clare - yep. i ripped apart one of my flowers and took the photo with the penny in there for scale. i plan to redo the photo with higher resolution. how did you come across it as being from Eggenberger's book? if it's in there i need some royalties! LOL i'm sure it's not as it's amateurish.
Dete, good for you for doing that. I will put your name in the title of the picture now for the future. The second page, the photo below your photo, is from the Eggenberger book then.
yeah, that page is from the eggenberger book and is based on bill moragne's journal notes.
thats a good idea.. if someone tries the pollinating, if they could take step by step pix of the process and maybe tricks, mistakes, or whatever they may be able to pass on to us.