WA: Zone 9?

Hello all,

It's been awhile since I've been on here. I've got Spring fever bad, and shopped at The Arboretum sale on Saturday, and McLendons' Garden Center 2ce this week. Anyway, I just read an interesting article in the NY Times about the new hardiness rating. The Arborday Foundation used updated climate data from 1989-2004 and redid the '1990 USDA' ZoneMap, and now puts parts of the Puget Sound area in Zone 9.

Am I no longer in zone denial? If I'd seen this last weekend I would have bought more tenders and less natives. This opens up a whole new world of plants I can kill. LOL.

Here's the Arborday link showing the warmth migrating north: http://www.arborday.org/media/mapchanges.cfm
Here's a link to the NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/science/03flowers.html

-Au

Hello, I'm completely new here. We moved to Blaine county ID last December, from AL, so gardening is confusing now. I'm in a small town house with a postage stamp size shared courtyard with 1 neighbor. He's single and doesn't garden. The only thing out there now is his very big BBQ.

So my first question is, What is my garden zone? I was a 9 in AL and had 'maters in by now. The map above doesn't even show me. Alos, am I even in the right forum? Well, I guess my 2 question should really be my first. HA HA.

Okay, I'm new at this so please be gentle with me.
-Tanya

By looking at the USDA map, Idaho has two zones: 6 or 7. What part of the state is Blaine county located in? I had a link where you could type in your zip code and it would give you your zone. I'm not sure where it went..... lol

Tanya,

Welcome to DG. People here are really nice and won't bite! : )
You can look up your zone by typing in your zip here: http://www.arborday.org/treeinfo/zonelookup.cfm

This gives you an idea of the min winter temps, but it won't tell you when to plant out your tomatoes, or how hot, long or humid summers may or may not be. There are other members here who are more familiar with ID's climate and I'm sure they will be of more help. Maybe, if we have enough climate change in the next 10 years, you just might be able to plant out your tomatoes in May.

Well I guess I'm still in zone 8 never could figure out what zone 8A or zone 8B met it always have been zone 8 in all my books and still is. I kinda wish it would change to a better one. But one thing they say about Wash. we don't tan we rust.
Tilly
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Welcome Tanya
I'm still kinda new but learning.
and everyone is so nice, you will like it here, its my fun place to be. check out all the forums.

I'm in :
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/702629/

This message was edited May 5, 2007 12:14 AM

This message was edited May 5, 2007 12:36 AM

TotallyLost, If you're near Ketchum or Bellevue or Hailey ....... brrrr. You're up near the timber line. I lived in the area there for 4 years. I can see Zone 3 plants living. You'll find that most of your plants will have to be conifers. I have a HS friend there who coaches the HS basketball team, is a realtor and has a fly fishing and fishing guide service. I can understand why you don't have larger digs. I saw a building lot last summer .... looked like 1/4 acre listed for $750k. I was there on the 4th of July. You really need to be talking in the Rocky Mountain group. Your climate has little in common with the folks in the Pacific NW unless they live in a lodge up at Alpenthall or Ross Lake or Whistler. Yours is a great place in the summer and perhaps for a week or 2 in the winter. Your neighborhood ought to reveal something.

Interesting that the 'differences' didn't show any changes in the Puget Sound area, Thanks to the marine climate I would guess.

Zone 8 or zone 9, I lost plenty of plants over this past winter. The combination of deep freeze for several days in a row, once about 10 days if I recall correctly, decimated my zone 9 plants. I know global warming is a fact, but this spring we are a good 4 degrees below normal and the Farmer's almanac predicts a cooler summer than usual. Of course, it also says a drier summer, but since our summers are always very dry, I'm not sure how that can be. LOL! I wouldn't start planning your tropical garden just yet! :) I lost both of my New Zealand tree ferns and they were protected with burlap. They are also supposedly hardy to zone 8. All of the zone 9 plants that survived for me did so because they were in microclimates that protected them - like close to a big rock, the wall of the house, or a cement wall - all of which bank heat.
But I see that the non-native bug has bitten you!! Welcome to the club!

Pixy, don't give up on your New Zealand Tree Ferns. Mine is coming back from the root/stump. Give it some time and watch for fiddleheads at the base. I also lost plants that shouldn't have died based on temps. It was the weird combo of wind, sharp temp changes, snowload, etc. I had 2 Hoheria in 1 gallon pots only 6' apart. 1 died and the other looks completely untouched. Same species, same size, same gallon pot, same age - significant different in survival.

Hope springs eternal. I haven't pulled them out yet and I've been looking, but I'll keep doing so. I ordered lots of stuff at fall clearance sales at Garden Crossings and also at Big Dipper Farms. Both of these retailers send good plants with healthy roots. I lost at least 50% of the things I ordered, including a tradescantia that should have been hardy to zone 4. Go figure. I'll keep my fingers crossed on the tree ferns. One of them I had been growing since it was a small little baby fern.

Yeah Photographer, I am near the near the timberline. It's still below freezing here at nite. Nobody grows anything. Everythig is expensive. Rent is $$$$$, gas is a joke, a pound of puny tomatoes is $3.a pound. All the food is trucked in. Hardly anyone lives here year round. Only the mean old rich folks cna afford to live here, and they leave there fancy homes empty for most of the year. They treat the locals like dirt.
I signed a 6 mth lease and that's up next month, so I guess I'm moving on. Global warming can come melt the snow and make there houses lose all there value. That'll do them rite. I think I'll head south to Vegas. At least the food there is cheep.

Totallylost--That's a little harsh. I wouldn't wish climate change on anyone. I can wish for warmer temperatures at times, because I love the big bold leaves of some plants too tender for our wet winters here in Western WA. I grew up in the Caribbean, so I love the way plants grow with no fuss. I can try to duplicate those plantings here, and fail or barely keep them alive, but it would take ALOT of work. I laugh because the only thing my mother ever watered was the lawn.

Since moving out here I've fallen in love with the native woodland plants bunchberry, false lily of the valley, trilliums and starflowers . Many of these would be threatened if the climate keeps warming up, and/or the natural water supply deminishes. Just think of what Vegas, Phoenix and LA would be like without the Hoover dam. And poor Mexico, on the tail end of the Colorado River, already gets nothing. Gardening with WA natives gives satisfaction and joy in Spring, but still, I will plant tender 'tropicals' for Summer bang.

As an aside, why are native plants out here so hard to find? When you do find them, they're soooo expensive. A small start of vanilla leaf in a 3" pot is $5. at Molbaks; a big 10" potted philodendron, grown and trucked in from Florida--about as far as you can get from here, is $8.88 at HD. Go figure.

Here's a little of the native groundcovers I hope will eventually displace all the ivy on my property.

This message was edited May 6, 2007 9:29 PM

It's a good question as to why the natives are so expensive. I can't figure that out, either. I have a sneaking suspicion that it has to do with marketing and with reaching a certain set of gardeners for some things. Others may be more difficult to grow. For instance some of our native woodlanders depend on a symbiotic relationship with biota in the soil. It may be that those are more difficult to reproduce.

Obviously nobody from the Arbor Day Foundation lives in my zone. We were zone 5. But, we always had to buy zone 4 plants or take a big chance on losing them. Their new map has us in zone 6.

Hi everyone, I'm new to this area too AuNatural. I've moved to South Central Washington from the Seattle area. Just looked up my zone and it's 7, interestingly a lot of Washington state is in this zone (not the west).
The altitude here is around 2,000 ft and it's hot/dry during the summer. I'm just trying to start a garden in undeveloped soil. Actually planted some very well mulched blueberry plants BEFORE the last snow and they survived! so far
Anyone have feedback on a couple questions?:
Picking a larger garden area, there are trees everywhere and the roots grow toward the gardening area.....there's plenty of sun, though. Should I cut down more trees to keep the roots away? Or just chop them off as I dig the area? I'm thinking about raised beds, but greydigger squirrels are a problem.
Also, to compost.....Can I do it without manure? and What can I do with my very pure ashes from my woodstove?

Thanks everyone.

Welcome marese.....
I started my raise beds about 3 years ago in the same type of area. My friend loaned me a book about lasagna gardening. I had allot of fun making it.
I laid cardboard on the area. Then layering about one to two inches of whatever I could find, straw, grass clippings, compost, coffee grounds. ashes, bagged manure. almost anything that will turn into mulch. And just keep layering it, I did all of my flower gardens that way too. Worms love it and they help make good soil. Keep it moist helps with the break down, I still keep adding to each bed every year with the grass clipping's. I made my boxes 4' wide and however long you want. Doing 4' gives you 2' on each side to work in the box without getting in the box, you don't want to compress the soil want to keep it fluffy. I started planting in about 3 weeks.
As far as the squirrels go, can't help you there we don't have that problem here but I do have cats and they like to dig in them, They think it's their big kitty box. We built so wire cages that fit over them until the plants are big enough.
Tilly

Hi Marese - I live east of Seattle near Issaquah, & historically speaking, I am in zone 7b.
I don't care what "they" have decided our zones will be called - I have lived here for the past 20+ years & I know what how the weather is like. I gauge by the low temps we have, and grow what can safely take these conditions. I was zone-pushing & paid dearly this past winter. One thing you'll want to do is figure out where the hotspots/coldsinks are on your property. This is so helpful when you are trying to site new plants.

At the risk of being politically incorrect, I would tell you to cut down the trees that have the greatest impact on your garden area. I did not & regret it to this day. The roots will continue to seek out the very best conditions & you will have a never-ending fight on your hands. Question for you: what kinds of trees & how close are they?

Compost: I don't compost with manure, it's mostly kitchen waste & whatever I can bring in from the property (brush, trimmings, grass, & weeds w/o the seed heads or taproots.)
Manure is great & if you can find a reliable source, take advantage of it. I have not had one, so I've made do without. If there is a Starbucks or Coffee house nearby, you might want to approach them about the spent grounds - my blueberries love a thin mulching.

What is the general condition of your soil? If it drains well, then you won't need raised beds. However, I grow all my veggies in raised beds - the soil warms up faster & I don't have to think about drainage whatsoever. Whatever you decide, be sure to rotate your crops each year. Another idea would be to do what is called "Lasagna" gardening - be forewarned, this is for patient souls. You would layer the areas you intend to plant & let the worms do the work for you. So - you create a bed now - you would not plant until late summer or fall.
Check around the area you live in to see what does well there. Hopefully, you have access to a nursery in your area that could give you a better idea of what grows well.
Hope this helps. K

This message was edited May 13, 2007 11:31 AM

Thanks Tilly - I forgot to mention that raised beds are litter-box nirvana for kitties!
1" hardware mesh works well as a cover - it's sturdy & keeps the birds out, too.
You can also cover the bottom of the bed to keep the moles out. K

Welcome Marese. I second Katye on the tree roots. If you amend the soil on top the roots, the roots will just grow up into the amended soil. If you recycle the trees as lumber, soil amendment, and mulch, all will be forgiven. Don't know much about compost. I've keep trying, but my compost pile always seems to stay colder than ambient. The only time it ever heated up to a nice 140 F was when a friend gave me his brewing mash, but the yeast smell attracted all the slugs and their slimy grandmas right into the pile. Talk about gross.

I know what you guys are saying about the winters. I lost zone 7 and even zone 5 plants. The "climate change" models for the NW call for warmer but wetter winters, and drought-ier summers. I think the winter wet should actually drop us down a 1/2-full zone even if the min. winter temps go up a couple of degrees.

Last year in Western WA weren't we on track to break the longest consecutive run of rainy days--something like 33 days in a row. In Seattle it stopped raining on day 29 or so for 30 hrs, then promptly started back up for another 2 weeks. Taint' dat a b*tch.

Yep, last year was a wet one. And this year we are below normal in the temperature department. My tree fern is history. Definitely. No possible rescusitation. Now it's a tossup whether to replace it or give up.

In the tree department, I would cut some trees if you have a lot of them. I would love to be able to cut down the cedar trees that keep my yard in perpetual shade. Unfortunately they are on my neighbor's property, and this person allows every seedling to grow as though it were a personal baby of hers. Now there is a volunteer horse chestnut tree that is growing among the cedars. I hate to tell her, but someone is going to be crowded out. We'll see who makes it.

Last year I dug up my gardens that are close to the cedars and lined the back and part of the bottom with plastic to keep the fine roots from intruding into the garden. They still will do it, but it will buy me some time.

I wondered why my local nursery was stocking so many plants for Zones 7 to 9. Now I know. By looking at your map, AuNatural, I discovered I am now considered to be living in Zone 7 instead of the Zone 4 I have been accustomed to. As far as "Global Warming" goes, when the frigid Arctic air stops funneling down the Fraser River Valley, killing all my tender plants during the winter months, I'll believe in it but not until that happens.

I will still look for Zone 4 plants as they are usually the hardy ones, well able to stand our brief but usually fatal interlude with Arctic air. However, those Zone 7 plants do look very appealing.

My DH keeps wondering how I can keep finding spaces for new plants in my garden. Never tell him about all the ones these horrible winds, not to mention the snow it brings, can kill in a matter of days. Every year it seems, I have plenty of places to plant new things. He sees the price labels on the pots, no need to tell him they never even had time to properly settle in before they died a horrible death.

Phyllis, now in Zone 7, don't know if that is Zone 7A or 7B. Will someone who lives in Blaine or Bellingham let me know? I'm just above the border at the end of the Semiahmoo peninsula so, probably, whatever you are, I am too.

Hi, I'm new to the site, and this is my first forum venture!

I'm a novice gardener, fairly new to the northwest US (Ottawa ON.CA transplant) and I can relate to the elevation issues! I'm at 1500 ft, on a hilltop overlooking the Columbia River Gorge (think WIND) and the town below is at about 100 ft. The plants always come into the markets well before I should plant them at my house! My zone is different - took me a while to figure that one out! Temps seem about two degrees lower for every 500 ft up, at least, so far. Biggest challenges are deer and summer dryness.

Sounds wonderful, though - hope you'll send pictures!

Welcome Phyllis & Agertz!

You both may have similar problems in the winter with valley air dehydrating your garden. The zone maps DO NOT take into account drying winter winds, root rotting winter wet or changes in elevation out here. The maps are based strictly on average minimum temperatures.

Sunset's Western Garden Book does a much better job of accounting for local microclimates, rainfall, winds, altitude etc... They break up the Western region into over 20 zones to account for these variances vs. the USDA map which only has 11 zones for the whole of the US. For example, this is what the say about the Columbia Gorge area which may also apply to the Frazer Valley area:

..."Absolute cold is not so much the enemy here as drying winds that dehydrate plants.
...mulching, shade, and careful late-autumn watering will help you grow many border-line plants."

Phyllis, are you close by Minter Gardens by any chance? We stopped there on a drive back to WA from BC one year. I seem to remember very formal style of borders with lots of annuals. (Now I know why.) Perhaps you can find a local garden club to help identify types of plants that will thrive in your area, or continue to treat the 'zone 7' plants as annuals.

When all else fails, go native. Good luck-Au

Au Naturel, thanks for the good info. I picked up the Sunset Western Garden Book. Lots to read!
Amy

Thank you for all your very useful information, AuNatural, and thank you for your welcome to this group. I have been finding it very informative. I finally found a good Canadian zone site and with the changes that have been made to the weather categories, based on the assumption that we are in a period of global warming, I am now a Zone 6b and I'm sticking there. I think I have jumped from zone to zone in my thinking three times now. I only wish I had been wide enough awake to remember to get its web address. I was telling my garden lady, Reggi, when she was here this afternoon about finally knowing what zone I am in and she said she would be interested in looking at the site because some of her other clients are confused now too. I had to admit that I couldn't tell her the web address and didn't even know where I got the information except that it was from one of the Canadian on-line nursery places, I think.

You are absolutely right about drying winds. When they come funneling down the Fraser River Valley at us, my sinuses really begin to act up and I can just imagine the poor plants going through the same thing. I have asbolutely no idea about what to do to increase the moisture level for these plants. Watering, the usual way to ensure they have adequate moisture, is out because it is so cold when that happens the poor plants would freeze and heave themselves right out of the ground.

I do mulch plants I think are too tender to survive, then nothing happens and, as there is no cold weather to kill the slugs and snails, I find they have made themselves a happy little home in the mulch and have used my tender plant as the fridge.

In my yard finding shade for these little darlings is no problem as no matter which direction you look there are tall cedars providing shade. At one time this area used to be a rain forest. Although in built up areas much of that forest is gone, for example, about a hundred years ago a raging forest fire swept through this area so the trees we have in our yards now are only about 70 years old, but I digress -- as usual! Although the trees are gone Mother Nature forgot to turn off the water-works. We have spring rains, we have summer rains, we have autumn rains and boy do we have winter rains. However, thank God it isn't snow or kids would be tempted to tobbogan off the roof as mine did once in Quebec. So, there is no need to worry about an adequate supply of moisture in late-autumn, Mother Nature does it for us.

We do get a lot of roof-rotting winter wet too, as you say, but most of the plants can take it. Our nurseries here are pretty good about weeding out plants that can't take the rain before we ever lay eyes on them.

Reggi and I refer to the Sunset Western Garden Book as the ultimate authority when we have differing opinions about plants. It is an excellent reference book for our area and we use it often.

I have been to Minter Gardens and I love it. If someone picked it up one night and settled it down around my house you would not hear me complain at all. I am so glad that you got to see it and enjoyed it too.

The next time you go to Vancouver on holiday, conference or whatever, go out to the University of British Columbia. They have a good Botanical Garden there and I get a lot of good ideas from these gardens. Also at the U.B.C. is the Natobi Japanese Garden which is so peaceful that when I leave there I am a much less stressed-out person than I was when I went in. The beautiful VanDusen Gardens is on 37th and Oak in Vancouver and Queen Elizabeth Park is just across Oak Street from it. If anyone who ever came to visit us when we lived in Vancouver expressed an interest in plants and/or gardening, they got dragged out to see them as I am so pleased with them all.

Now I live very close to the border and it is about a 30 mile drive to see them so I rarely get to see them any more. We did get to Vandusen in April as they have an excellent plant sale and neither Reggi nor I would think of missing it. The U.B.C. Botanical Garden also has a plant sale but its date this year conflicted with prior commitments so we had to pass.

You say that when all else fails, go native. I do buy a lot of native plants as they are old friends that have been with me all my life.

As our yard seems full of red oriental poppies at the moment I am sending you a picture of one. They are my DHs favorite flower. Why? Because it's red, of course. Is there a man who doesn't like red flowers best?

Happy gardening!

Phyllis