I could use a critique on this pergola

Hi everybody!

I have a picture I'd like you to look at and critique for a new pergola/arbor I would like to have made & installed. It is a fair amount of money, so I'd like to get it right the first time because there won't be a second time.

The steps to the door are sort of shallow, and while I'd like to have them redone in brick, it's on the back burner for later, much later. That's why the pergola is so shallow, plus I'd like to have as much light pour into the room as possible, so keeping overhead structures to a minimum will help.

Here'a the "artist's rendition" of what they thought I'd like -- it might be a little too plain. And here's a link to the house as it is now. http://davesgarden.com/forums/p.php?pid=3070324. My house is very plain, too.

PLEASE just post your misc thoughts!

Thanks,
Suzy

This message was edited Mar 28, 2007 1:17 PM

Just my 2 cents -- I'd widen it -- the picture of your house looks like you have downspouts at the corners; I'd take it to the downspouts.

Wonderful idea, and I love the incorporated benches! It's a good design already, but you asked for additional ideas, so here are a few thoughts off the top of my head...

Just how shallow is "shallow?" It seems to me it's hard to constrain a climber to a narrow arbor... if you don't want to come out further from the steps (and I understand your reasoning, although you might consider adding a little "wing" to each side that doesn't go all the way up to the top), maybe you could attach another panel at a 90 degree angle to give your vines something to climb on against the side of the house? That would give your plants a little outside corner to fill up as well as growing up and over the pergola.

Hmmm... a thought on placement... you might consider going out 6 or 8 inches from the steps rather than putting the uprights smack up against them (especially if you don't do side panels)... that'll give the vines a little extra room to grow through the upright panels without overgrowing the windows so much... and it will also give extra emphasis to the feature, maybe frame the doors better.

You said you thought the design might be just a little too plain... you can soften it and add some detail just by knocking off some corners with 45 degree cuts... I'm sure you've seen arbors where the top pieces all have the lower corners knocked off their ends. Even the benches might benefit from an angled cut or a bit of a curve rather than a 90 degree corner... and that might also cut down the chance of somebody banging into a sharp square corner (I know it's pretty well out of the central path... but I'm a klutz at times, so that sort of thing occurs to me when I look at designs). You could do little scrolled or curved cuts on the exposed ends also... but I think that might start looking too fussy. I do like the simple, shallow arch across the long top piece; it complements the simple lines of your house.

Another possibility for adding visual interest without cluttering it up would be to vary the spacing of the side supports, in a Frank Lloyd Wright sort of way.

I like Brigid's idea too... how far is it from the edge of the steps to the downspout (or to the cellar door)? You may not have the space or the inclination to add little "wings" to the structure, but widening it would give the plants more room... just remember to visualize it with at least a foot of foliage bushing out in all directions.

I just realized I'm making a big assumption... are you planning to grow vines up this structure, or is a purely archetectural detail?

I think you should practice making one at your place, then come over to my house and put one in as well! :-)

I f you are making it shallow now because you plan on re doing steps later, I would do steps first. It doesn't look balanced to me.

Would this picture help to visualise ? ~ A NZ garden .
A deck or paving is at the same level as the door ,and extends out about 15 feet ,with brick pillars where the steps go down ,and wooden bench seats attached .It is a delightful spot and visitors all gravitate to it .The vine is an ornamental grape - pleasant shade in Summer ,a fiery red in Autumn ,and lets in any sun in Winter .
Emelle

I've never been a big fan of pergolas with sides, feels a little claustiphobic to me, but yours is not going to be wide. It is almost a huge Arbor, and I like Arbors. I'm sure you could look at pictures of Arbors and come up with something more ornate.

I too, like the idea of the seats, and I'm sure you have addressed this, but will they be blocking your entrance/exit? Or will you mainly be using the middle door? Widening it as Brid says will give you a little more room for your seats. Also, widening it will give you some movement room when you replace the steps.

I have to say, that I like what you have proposed without it being more ornate. It fits your house IMHO.
toofew

Widening it would also let you have those seats without having them take up valuable "real estate" on the top landing of your steps.

When you redo your steps, you might think about extending them just a bit further into the yard so there's a more significant landing at the top... so having the sides extend a little further outward from the house might be good.

I re-read about your concern that too deep a structure (extending too far outward from the house) would shade the doorway and block too much light... We use a big umbrella (9 or 10 feet wide) by our patio door, and plenty of light still gets into the house through that door. Also, a lot of sun will get through the slats and the bare branches in the winter, when light is more of an issue.

Thanks everybody for the help! I knew there was someting wrong with the whole plan as soon as I saw the drawing, but I wasn't able to put my finger on it.

The seats are too blocky (I was going to use them for plants, anyway). Only the middle door works, the rest are stationary, but it just looks wrong, or unbalanced, as Nanny said.

The size bothers me a lot, and yes, Critter, I was furious when those steps were put in without consulting me on the size. They are too short/small or as you say, need a bigger landing.

The lights hanging on the house might prevent me from going wider. I have a choice of what it is and so wide that the lights are inside the pergola. I *might* have room to wedge it in between the edge and the light, but it might look wedged in. There is also the water spigot there and the Wizard of Oz basement doors open way wide.

Emelle, I had to laugh at your picture -- that pergola would be my whole and entire backyard!

All-in-all, I think I'd better pass for this year and give it more thought, especially the steps, 'cause you're right, I should redo them if I'm going to, and before the pergola goes in.

sniff-sniff -- I wanted some climbing roses this year!

Suzy

Oh golly, I had no idea those were new steps, I thought you'd inherited them when you got the house... I'd have been furious too!

If you've got your heart set on brick steps, I understand... but have you thought about just ignoring the existing steps and putting a short deck there instead? Just a little landing with a full-length step running along the front of it... I'm thinking that would probably be less $ than brick steps and might even tie in better with your arbor/pergola...

You'll figure out something wonderful, and it'll be a real focal point -- even before the climbing roses get established!

We just had the bottom of our deck steps redone last year due to rot from the brick of the terrace keeping the wood too damp. I'm wondering now - could new steps could be built right over your current steps? Do you want brick steps or wood?

Glad to know you'd use the seating area for plants since sitting amont the thorns of roses doesn't sound too comfortable. Do you even have to have the seats? They seem to take up more visual space, to me.

Since you said your home was "plain" how about a higher arch to the top? Less likely to block any light but, as Critterologist said, it's more important in winter than summer.

Everything is my fault on this whole design....I told him exactly what I wanted and he provided it.

No, I don't have to have the seats and in fact I have already (mentally) eliminated them.

Here's a picture i provided him. Notice the slight arch to it? He did it exactly as I asked. LOL! Who knew I had such bad taste?

Here's the other picture I provided. I am going to put in somehting like this in a different part of the backyard. It is taken from the Smith & Hawkin Book.

Notice the top -- we decided to make them all this style instead of the heavier and fancier one. I need something in between.

I love the last photo! I might even adapt it to my potting table. There are so many gorgeous trellises - take your time: this may be forever.

You can always start the roses someplace else so they'll really be ready to climb when you've had the trellis installed.

I like the seats! I just think you need to bring it out wider so the seats don't overhang the area in front of the door (remember, you only need "floor" in front of a seat to set your feet on, not beneath it). I wouldn't worry about the lights; in fact, I'd plan on taking them down and replacing them with lights mounted on the pergola (perhaps hanging from the top on either side). That will give you more leeway with your design.

If you think the seats hang out in space too much, you could run a narrow section of lattice down the front of the arbor on each side, just enough to enclose the bench a bit

You'll need to leave a little space at either end of the trellis for your roses, but otherwise I'd bring it out as wide as the house design permits. I know you said the cellar door swings out pretty wide, but you wouldn't have to let it flop open all the way on the trellis side -- in fact, you could put up a hook on the trellis to hold up the door when it's open.

A big more of an arch (maybe bring it up a little higher, if possible) and some angled cuts would add detail... I'm not sure I'd go with the swoopy curves on the first photo you just posted, just cutting off the corner would probably do the trick. Google for sites selling arbors until you find the type and level of detailing that appeals to you.

My first thought is that your stairs are out of compliance with the uniform building code- that may or may not be an issue to you. Building code requires a 3 foot wide landing on all doors. You can have a one step up (stoop) into the house but are supposed to have the landing for safety reasons. When you redo the steps, you may want to change that.

I like the basic pergola. I'd fancy up the rafter tails with decorative cuts which would probably give you the added finese you seek. I like the 'seats' but would not use them for seats but rather as a place to put pots. With the uneveness of the stairs below the seats makes using them as seats, ackward and potentially dangerous for some people. The concept is great. Just a little tweeking and you'll be ready to go.

And I hope you don't wait until next year - you're a very creative person (just look at your gardens!) and will figure out just the right design, the one that makes you go, "Aaaaaaaaahhhhhh."

Illoquin, would it solve all these problems if you just moved the pergola away from the house? Then you could have it whatever size you want.

Hart, that's a good idea I think! It would still frame out and dress up the doorway even if you moved it out a foot... but it would miss the lights, the downspouts, etc.

But I wanted climbing roses! LOL!

I was so disappointd inthe drawing that I have put it all on the back burner for now, but what does frame out and dressup the doorway mean, Critter?

Suzy

I thought that was what you were doing with the pergola... creating an archetectural feature to frame the back entrance... at one point I thought I remembered you talking about shutters to dress up the exterior, figured you had come up with these pergolas or trellis/arch constructs instead.

Why can't you have climbing roses on it regardless of whether you construct it tight against the house or move it out a little ways so you don't have to worry about it running into the lights & downspouts? I must be missing something...

Actually, since Illoquin said she didn't want to block the light, why have the pergola up against the house at all? We built our pergola to provide shade and that's what it's going to do wherever it is. So put it out in the yard somewhere, make it big enough to put a patio underneath and some chairs or chairs and a table. It's just lovely sitting underneath ours, which is above our patio.

We built planter boxes into ours. I don't understand either why you can't have climbing roses but if it's a soil problem, just add some planter boxes.

Ah, Critter, I misunderstood...I thought you meant frame, as in something a carpenter would do with a bunch of 2 by 4s. You meant it as sort of a decorator might say it.

On the pergola vs arbor, I need to think where else I could put one. In my infinite wisdom, I made all the curves off set, so now, any arbor I add would be crooked and sort of facing the wrong way. Hard to explain without an aerial view.

After this cold snap, I am sort of morose about my garden. I need the easy Button!

Suzy

I saw this one locally and it combines a few uses - seating, good for climbing roses and some shade.

I like that one!

That's sort of what I was trying to suggest in terms of little side panel "wings" to enclose the ends of the benches (scaled down for Suzy's original design)...

I could picture something like that around those doors, about half the width and twice as long!

I'd like it twice as long, too!

Let me print the pic and take it outside -- maybe next time it's warm enough or the sun is shining. The curves are definitly out because they can'tdo that wih cedar...or if they can, I can't afford it! But the rest with the wings and so forth could be done.

Thanks, Pirl,
Suzy

It is cedar. They also make it in another wood but I can't think of what it's called right now. The price, as shown in cedar is $2,500.

......like I said, if it is wood, I can't afford it. LOL! Actually, I haven't gotten as far as getting a price. And I am very thankful for his drawing program so I could see it before I said "do it". WHEW! That was a big bullet I dodged.

Suzy

Very good dodge! It's worth the time and effort to "plan before you plant" - especially for any structure that isn't easily moved. Good luck with whatever you do.

Susy, it doesn't have to be square. You can make it any shape you want.

Do you have the old Country Living book "Country Gardens?" Perhaps your library has it. Look on page 38 at the arbor built in a round/hexagon/octagon shape. I'm sure it's more rustic than what you want but it might provide a little inspiration.

Is your husband handy? If you build it yourself, it will cost a fraction of what it costs to buy one already made up or to pay someone to build. Ours is pretty large and only cost a bit over $100 in materials.

Here's another round one that looks pretty simple although it's open in the center.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/gardening/design/projects/plantsupports_cpergola.shtml

Just to be different - what if you contructed two squared arbors on either side of the doors. If you wanted, you could put benches inside the arbors and even connect the two arbors with a trellis to create the impression of a pergola.

That's a neat idea -- it would give you a strong archetectural element on either side of the door, and you could bridge the two arbors with a fairly skinny trellis that wouldn't shade the doorway too much.

Suzy, are we giving you "option anxiety" yet? LOL

Naw, I am just surprised so many people are giving this some true thought -- it's actually very nice. On the other hand, it would be nice if the ideas were getting LESS expensive instead of MORE expensive! ROTF!

The funny thing is I don't think climbing roses would even grow across the top of the pergola in Indiana....they don't grow that long/big here (I don't think) so a topless thing would be A-OK, and so would a narrow one.

I'm still thinking. I'm not sure I have the guts to ask the guy to redraw it right now -- it's his busy time and I'm not sure he thought my job was even worth the drive over, but he hid it well. When he showed me the book of things his company has done, they were all jumbo things like Emelle posted.

Suzy

It was only the area around the door I was meaning ,not the whole bricked area ! .It can be very simple in style ,with wooden beams attached to the house structure ,with plain seats perhaps simply resting on bricks ,letting the plants themselves provide a beautiful effect .It is common in NZ to have features like that ..The picture featured is of the large country home belonging to my sister in law ,a widow .She created a huge garden ,which she works in every day ,and as a bit of income ,opens her garden to the public -entry about $4 ..
Emelle