Brugs, Buds & Bugs...Oh my!

Since I am asking about this sort of after the fact, I guess what I really want is moral support, and maybe someone to hold my hand through this...LOL
But even before I ask the question I need to vent!!! OK... I lovingly rooted my brugs in a bubbler starting in early fall with cuttings that wonderful DG-er's shared with me for trades or postage. They rooted and I planted them in pots and put them in the greenhouse where they thrived all winter and I was happy even though I had $450 electric bills! Now right as it is about time to let them out they are suddenly suffering bug attacks!!! Most of them apparently have spider mites... see link to thread with pictures of them. Luckily 'Butterfly' is one of them that escaped the attack. (see "'Butterfly' today" posted the 25th I think) But almost all of the rest of them are badly infected. Seems this started when I was soooo busy with seed starting in the house... By the time I knew about it they looked like this:

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/702110/

I tried washing them off and now I have sprayed them with an insecticide I got at home depot. I did it this evening. There are a couple of them that have a bud on them... Does insecticide hurt buds? One of the sprays said insecticidal soap and the other said insect killer. They are both the same brand. I will post a picture of the bottles in a minute cause I didn't plan ahead and they are outside in the greenhouse.

I am also scared that the next thing will be that the insecticide will kill all my plants. I had apids on the elephant ears, so I sprayed them too, and then I pretty much sprayed everything in the green house.

I am wondering if I should take off almost all of the leaves?

I use Bayer's 2-in-1 on my larger Brugs. Retreating the plants as recommended on the can keeps the spider mites off. I haven't had a problem with fertilizer burn but it can happenn and it does take a short while for the systemic insecticide to reach the leaves. I use very, very small amounts, evenly distributed on the wet soil on smaller plants. There is a product that uses the same insecticide without the fertilizer. I haven't bought it yet. Bayer's is so much cheaper. Neem oil might work as well. It works on broad mites. I just found 2 Brugs with weirdly shaped leaves today. I guess I need to use Neem oil tomorrow.

I understand how you feel . I sprayed all my brugs. and seedlings before putting them into the greenhouse for winter, and have watched them very carefully not seeing any sighs of spidermites.
I had them planted outside for several weeks and found one yesterday with broadmite damage. I recently bought a brug. off ebay and it has broad mites, so that may be how I got them so fast. I wasn't thinking and had put this brug. in the greenhouse instead of isolating it , which I know I should do before introducing it into the greenhouse population. So now the fight is on, and it is so discouraging to start out the season this way. Of course these brugs. and any other that I know are more suseptible to a mite breakout have had their first dose of Neem.

Thank you both for your input! I guess I need to get some neem oil....

Mites are the main enemy of brugs,and neem seems to be the main thing I use to controll them. I bought one of those insect foggers. and I fill it with neem and fog my green house to the point of killing everything in it.When I,m done all the leaves are (shiny) with a nice oily coating.Pentac works fairly well and it cost a lot less than the other comercial mite chemicals. In my opinion there is no getting rid of mites I simply make controling them part of my routine I spray or fog or whatever at least every two weeks. Be carful with insecticidal soap (essential salts of fatty acids) I have had some damage to my brugs from it but I still use it sparingly as mites become resistant to what ever u use if you dont change up once in a while.

I feel for you guyz! This is the nighmare I had last year. First it was Broadmites and it was BAD.. that took 2 months to get over, then spider mites plauged me for the rest of the year. No more!
This year, I broke down and spent the $ to make life easier. I bought Forbid.. just buying it scared the mites away so far! LOL
Kell always recomended Neem and back it up with 2 in 1... that works great but it takes a while to work. I just can't handle it this year. If I add up all I spent in Neem & 2 in 1 for the year, it's not much more to just get Forbid and be done with it.

Ok, Ted...I used insecticidal soap...I did it yesterday evening. I have not seen them today as the sun was not up when I went to work. It has been partly cloudy today and it rained some last night. What kind of damage does it do? They are already so damaged I don't know how much worse they can get. I am wondering if I should take off most or all of the leaves. They have been outside for about a week. We were planning to put them in the ground this week end. If they die I will be more than sad... I will be devastated!

Not a whole lot of damage It wont kill them.It just kinda makes some of the leaves wilt and fall off.if its been cloudy youll be ok. I bet once you get them out side they will all do fine. most of my plants are screaming to get outside or in a larger pot. I am so glad spring has sprung.

They have been outside for a week now. But I plan to put all or most iin the ground. I will take cuttings in the fall in case they don't come back. My original first brug has come back for three years.

I went to lowes tonight and bought the PH meter and some Bayer 3 in one. I hope that is good. I was afraid of the Neem oil after I read about it. I was afraid I would kill them with it. I have heard of others using this so I hope it is a good one. I never did see whaat the brand was that I used yesterday but I used it up. One was the insecticidal soap and tahe other one was just an insecticide. they were both the same brand and as a mater of fact I though all of them were the same product till I went to use them. I am hopeing the foliar feeding wiall help since the mites have bleached out the leaves...

I so wish you success with whatever method you decide to use to combat the spider mite problem you are having. Last summer was my first season with brugs. and it was a disastrous trial of determination on my part to fight back against spider and broad mite attacks. Never in all my years of gardening have I experienced such an onslaught of pests, and they all came from my brugs. They spead out in my garden to neighboring plants, and I lost 5 beautiful new Dahlias to them. Others were so damaged I only saw a couple of blooms in late fall. The advice given was to spray with Neem Oil, so I did. Over and over I sprayed but the Neem seemed to be a health tonic - the mite problem grew. Two of my brugs. were so pathetic, I put them in the trash. Like ZZ, I learned about Forbid and also Avid, and added them to my arsenal. One spray of Forbid took care of the mites and several brugs. rebounded in time to bloom before I had to bring them inside for the winter. At the first sign of a mite infestation this year, I will put on my safety spray gear and kill them off. Both Forbid and Avid have a residual effect and also take out the eggs.

Tussee

You guys are scaring me!! I had a few aphids, which were taken care of with insecticidal soap, while brugs were in my basement. No problems for last month they've been outside, that I can see.

How soon can I put the 2-in-1 on my brugs, planted two days ago? I know they grow roots quickly but the soil is still cold, if the air is not (summer temps), so I don't want to do damage while trying to prevent a later problem with bugs.

Sorry to hear about early season problems for some, with the nasty critters that hurt our babies.

Thanks for any help with my question!

Brenda

I would like to know about that because mine are still in pots and I am putting them in the ground. I had planned to treat them all again as soon as I got them in the ground. Then I read not to use pesticides on newly transplanted plants. So what should I do? I really thought it would help their overall health if I put them in the ground.

Brenda, If it were me, I'd give your newly transplanted brugs a little time to establish themselves before I hit em with 2 in 1. Especially since you don't have a problem yet. You can use Neem or even just water to keep any problems at bay while you give em a chance to get goin... it won't take long, they will take off!
Have you tried washing the leaves top & bottom with a high powered mist from the hose? I did that every day when I was battling mites.. really helped. I still wash leaves off nearly every morning! Habit I guess.. I have Neem or Polmolive on hand 24/7 too. I nearly bathed in it all year last year! I even start to miss the smell.. go figure! LOL
Yardqueen, What did you read about Neem that made you not use it? I love the stuff. :) Never thought it was scary.. I totally drenched everything with it and never lost one plant to it..

It was something I read on the lable but I dont remeber now. I will have to look again when I go to lowes or home depot. I just looked it up on google tho and I think I must have misunderstood something because everything I read about it now says it is safe. I wish I would have bought it. I hoope what I did buy is good... I will get some if this doesn't do the trick, and my next resort will be to get forbid if I can find it.

Yardqueen, if you do end up needing Forbid, I recall reading of several places where you could buy smaller quanities. Forbid comes as a concentrate and truly goes a long way. I also recall reading on one of the forums several people getting together to share and thus cutting costs. It is expensive I think but you do not need a lot. I added Avid to my arsenal as a backup - if you use only one type of spray, supposedly the mites will become immune and it will lose its effectiveness. Do a web search and the Forbid sources should come up, but I will also search my files to see if I kept any information.

Tussee

Mite help - info
http://www.ipmofalaska.com/Files/neem.html
and
http://www.sel.barc.usda.gov/acari/index.html
Bayer 2 in 1 and 3 in 1 are availbe for sprayer - cut to 1/2 strenght .
Read directions and reapply in 7 to 14 days depending on heat , sunlight , rain , and type of soil .
An example would be Malathyion poisen - after 3 days it isn't a poisen anymore , it's food so spray every 4 to 5 days - 2 or 3 times , then switch to something else .
I like D E . [ diatomaceous earth ] but it will kill bees , spiders , butteryflies along with fleas , mites , ants . ticks , centapeds , millipeds , earwigs and just about anything crawling in your yard .

Wow Tony! Great Link! I didn't know all THAT about Neem! I know it works great for me and that it was not toxic to birds, humans or animals, but that was really informative! Thank you for the interesting reading!
Now that second link on Mites is gonna give me bad dreams.. LOL That was tooo much visual information for me! LOL

I got Forbid from ebay.. thought it was a good price. Here is a link.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=330051484634&rd=1&rd=1
if that doesn't work.. it's item #330051484634 I was very pleased with the seller's service.

I've read a lot about Forbid and Avid... and that you can only use Forbid 3 times in a season, so I don't plan on using it till I really have to. It is not a preventative measure. I've heard that it is incredibly effective and if you use it right, I'd think you wouldn't need it more than 3 times a season.

I keep a spray bottle of water with a few drops of dish lotion handy. It seems to work well on mites. Very economical too.

Mites almost makes growing large quantities of brugs too miserable to continue. They were the bane of my existance last year. Neem is great if they have not gotten to an overwhelming amount. The drawback is you have to hit all surfaces for it to be effective. So on a huge infestation on a big crop of brugs, you really need to move to one with systemic action. The huge positive about it is it won't kill you like the insecticide in Bayer systemic granules 2 in 1.

Hey Ted, would you tell me more about this bomb you bought and filled with Neem? That sounds so cool! And it might hit all sides.

I loved Forbid! I had the worst infestation I have ever had last year. Everything had mites, plants that never had mites before had heavy duty mites. I bought a vaporizer and Forbid. 1 spray and they were gone. And it does not seem as toxic to humans as some.

Oh Patricia, no fair to get broad mites in that way. They are worse than spidermites. I try to spray all new brugs that come into my house with Neem on entry.

I got a systemic 3 in one that I am going to use when I plant them in the ground but I am spraying with a spray now that claims to kill apids and mites. I hope it is not toxic to humans as I got it all over me. I did take a shower after. I hope I live to see the mites die!!! LOL

It is just a regular electric bug fogger but I fill it with a mixture of neem and a product called take down spray which is pyrethrum and canola oil (if I remember correctly) then I fog my little 8x12 greenhouse with it. I dont know how effective it would be outside though but I guess I will find out.

Thanks Ted. I wonder if your fogger is like mine. I loved using it but it is heavy to carry around. But it just surrounds the plant in fog and hits everything. I got it because it uses so little insecticide compared to a regular sprayer. And Forbid is so pricey.

OK, I had to look up your 3 in 1 Yardqueen. I was confused! And thinking it was another of the Bayer products, the All-In-One Rose & Flower Care (Three systemic products in one providing complete rose care, with: fertilizer, insect protection and disease control.)

But you are using 3-in-1 Insect, Disease & Mite Control Concentrate. I do not think I have used it or even seen it before. So it is a spray and the main insecticide is Imidacloprid (which does not kill mites) though they have added Tau-fluvalinate I am assuming to kill mites which is a Pyrethroid compound that I have not heard of before. Active ingredients: 0.47% Imidacloprid, 0.61% Tau-Fluvalinate, 0.65% Tebuconazole.

In reading about it, I see it is called a low risk pesticide.
"Tau-fluvalinate is a broad-spectrum insecticide/miticide in the pyrethroid class of pesticides. It is registered for a single food use (beehives/honey) and several non-food uses, including ornamentals (outdoor and container-
grown, greenhouse, interior plantscapes, dip for cuttings), building surfaces/perimeters, and ant mounds. " http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-PEST/2005/November/Day-16/p22616.htm

I have used Imidacloprid before in their Bayer Advanced Tree & Shrub Insect Control to kill scale and aphids but it does not kill mites. I loved it because of its ease of use too as a direct soil additive, no spraying.

"Imidacloprid is a systemic, chloro-nicotinyl insecticide (a relatively new and different chemical class). Other products that contain imidacloprid and their uses include Premise (termites), Admire and Provado (commercial vegetables), Marathon (greenhouse) and Merit (turf and ornamentals). Imidacloprid is moderately toxic to mammals, toxic to upland game birds, has moderately low toxicity to fish, may be very toxic to aquatic invertebrates and is highly toxic to bees." http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/hortnews/2000/8-11-2000/newproducts.html

It will be interesting to see how effective Tau-fluvalinate is against mites. My take is it may help in a light infestation but it will not kill them all. The problem with mites is they evolve so fast, most insecticides are effective for very short periods of time which is why the news ones are so pricey.

http://www.bayeradvanced.com/product/3-in-1-Insect-Disease-and-Mite-Control/concentrate.html



And the Bayer 2 in 1 other members here have mentioned is totally different. 2-in-1 Systemic Rose & Flower Care

It is not sprayed but added to the soil so much easier to use. It has Disulfoton as the systemic insecticide and a fertilizer. I used to use this until I read extensively on the insecticide Disulfoton and it scared me too much though they do use a low % of it.

"Disulfoton is a systemic organophosphate insecticide and miticide that is especially effective against sucking insects. This ingredient has long been available under the trade name Di-Syston. Disulfoton is very highly toxic to all mammals by all routes of exposure and products formulated at greater than 2% disulfoton are classified as Restricted Use Pesticides. Bayer Systemic Rose & Flower Care is 1% disulfoton. Poisoning will be unlikely if exposure to formulated products is minimized by following label directions: wear rubber gloves, avoid getting in eyes or on skin and avoid breathing dust. Disulfoton is moderately toxic to birds, highly toxic to aquatic organisms, and toxic to bees." http://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/hortnews/2000/8-11-2000/newproducts.html

I am sorry if I have confused anyone! So complicated. I try to keep up with these things esp. before I buy them. I try to use them, especially the most toxic ones, as little as possible in my yard. My main complaint about brugs is that if you grow them in quantity, your yard can become a toxic dump fast.

Edited to add this site which I refer to a lot.
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:cN59RZ9oKiQJ:www.entm.purdue.edu/entomology/ext/targets/e-series/EseriesPDF/E-221.pdf+Imidacloprid+avid&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&ie=UTF-8

This message was edited Apr 1, 2007 5:27 AM

Kell,

I promise I will look at the lable and tell you what mine is but it is not the one you described. It is not a spray, it is added to the soil. That is why I was planning to use it when I put them in the ground. Or do you think it would be better to us it while they are in the pots and then transplant them a few days later?

ZZ,
I remember now what sared me off the Neem oil. It said npt to use it on newly transplanted plants, and mine are all going to be newly transplanted. I was plannig on using it after I put them in the ground.

Also no one ever mentioned anything about whether I should remove most of the leaves...

I assumed you got Bayer brand, Yardqueen. And I can find only 2 that are 3 in one made by Bayer. But maybe you got another brand of 3 in 1? Though I thought Bayer was holding the patents of most of the insecticides now.

Maybe you got the 2 in 1 instead of the 3 in 1 which is granules you add to the soil, made with the systemic disulfoton.

http://www.bayeradvanced.com/productFamily/rose-and-flower-care.html

I tell you I get so confused with the Bayer products esp since they seem to change them every year.

No, mine is Bayer 3 in one and it is a liquid to be diluted and added to the soil. I got it at lowes. it is a systemic, insecticide fugicide, and fertilizer....

This message was edited Apr 1, 2007 9:38 AM

Hmmmmmm, I wonder which it is. I so prefer the ones you add to the soil and not as a spray.

There is a soil one called All-In-One Rose & Flower Care Concentrate that is a 3 in 1 but it doesn't kill mites.
http://www.bayeradvanced.com/product/All-In-One-Rose-Flower-Care/concentrate.html

What is the name?

I did the Tree & Shrub soil drench you told me about last year Kell... I never had a whitefly or aphid all year.. That was great stuff. I know what you mean about the toxic dump feeling.. I want to keep it clean and natural.
In the meantime, I swear by Safer's Rose & Flower Spray in a turquoise bottle.. $4.98 at Lowe's. I used it last year for cats, since Neem makes cats bigger and puffier. LOL.. It gets really pricy if you have to use it for anything besides just spot treatments. It works on everything. Great for fungus gnats in the house and even teeny tiny seedlings!
**HINT** Pour it in a different sray bottle.. it will last a LOT longer... You just need a very fine mist and it squirts out of the bottle it comes in way too much and doesn't cover well at all.

Kell,

That is it except mine says it kills mites. Even names some mites and include the two spot spider mite. But the stuff I used to spray them with must be helping cause they look better now. It also says it kills mites. I fed them today with miracle grow shake and feed. The sunshine is helping them and the rain and fresh air I am sure. I am going to use the systemic when I plant them I think. Some are probably root bound in their pots. I am also going to get neem oil....

That is weird I can't find it on the Bayer website, Yardqueen. Maybe it is an old product, no longer sold.

Joyce, I used Bayer Tree and Shrub on scale that just would not die. 1 easy to apply soil application and they were gone. The fact it lasts up to a year is great too. So sad it doesn't kill mites!

Oh yes Kell.. I am so glad you told me about that stuff.. at least that part of brugs was carefree!

I have to correct my post that it is NOT SAFERS... It is by Schultz.. and it says Garden Safe spray...Rose & Flower.. I thought something was wrong! I just bought another bottle yesterday and noticed it was SCHULTZ which is a product I don't use much, but this stuff is awesome! Not at Lowe's, it's at HD. Sorry!

Joyce, can you take a close up of the ingredient label. I go by ingredients. THANKS

It says....
Activie ingredient:
Pyrethrins ...0.01%
Canola Oil ...1.00%
Inert ingredients 98.99%
Insecticide from plants for plants.

Says you can use it on edibles up to the day of harvest!
Kills all stages of insects, including eggs. Residual protection against mites. Broad spectrum control.
Kills aphids, beetles, (e.g., Colorado potato beetle, flea beetle, Japanese beetle, asparagus beetle) Caterpillars (e.g., gypsy moth caterpillars, tent caterpillars, diamond back moth larvae, leafrollers) ants, mealybugs, mites, leafhoppers, scale, thripes, fungus gnats, whitefly, adelgids, plant bugs, sawfly larvae, psyllids, spittlebugs and phyloxera.

I found it last year when I got hit by cats so bad.. Totally got rid of them in a day or so.. then I would just hit the new growth every few days when I see moths laying eggs.

For a standby.. I love it. None of my babiez got BroadMites this year.. what a joy that was! LOL