Crinum ID

This huge clump of crinum is in bloom at our public library. I was told that it was the southern swamp lily, but it doesn't look like the DG crinum of the same name. I think that it is a hybrid. Any ideas about its identity.

Definitely not Crinum americanum, it looks like J C Harvey.

http://aolsearch.aol.co.uk/image?query=%27crinum+j+c+harvey%27

http://www.crinum.us/jch.htm

I can give you picture of a JC Harvey blooming by the weekend. I have one about to bloom; but I don't have pics as I just got this bulb last fall. Robert would probably know--he's our resident crinum expert! =)

bsharf~

I'll try to help......and despite djm1218's comments as to my expertise.....well, that's very debatable. ;-) Ultimately, it will be up to you to do a little more research. Hope that excites you.........

It is very difficult to confidently identify a Crinum with only one picture and nothing else. I won't do that here, but will do what I can. Together, perhaps we can narrow things down so you will have a better idea than "swamp lily". Your continued research is important.

Obviously the common name "swamp lily" has been misapplied. As has been pointed out, that name refers to C. americanum which has white flowers of an entirely different form. Other related Crinums would be more deserving of the misnomer, such as C. erubescens. This sort of thing happens a lot with plants and continues to cloud things in all the plant kingdom.

My guess would be more toward C. x powellii, due to the flowers' closed trumpet-shaped blooms. JC Harvey's flowers open more widely, especially by the time the pollen has ripened, so I put that possibility further down on the list of "suspects", but I don't rule it out. The flowers of x powellii can open more widely than the flowers shown here, especially in the evening. The tepals of JC Harvey are wider overall for a superior blossom all around. When xpowellii is fully open, the thinness of the tepals is revealed.

http://www.gardenweek.org/journal/090799/Images-9/fbig.jpg

I doubt it is the similarly pink 'Cecil Houdyshel' for the same reason--its flowers flair widely and the tepals are wider, with better color. However, some pix of purported Cecil Houdyshel do resemble the common xpowellii.....

There are many different "clones" and variations of xpowellii and so in looking at a wide selection of them, one sees a good deal of color and form differences, within the basic characteristics.

BTW, the foliage of JC Harvey is also very telling: it resembles corn foliage, with a deep furrow down the length due to the main vein. The foliage can also be furrowed along the sides of the main vein too. The foliage of xpowellii is less "channeled", but has the u-shape that many Crinums do. Check the foliage.........this may settle things in that respect. Can you get some good pix?

Both x powellii and JC Harvey multiply rapidly. Smaller bulbs of each will offset long before they are large enough to flower. Lots and lots of small offsets should surround the older bulbs. Old clumps of offsetting types will naturally be crowded, but with these two, much more so than many. Is the clump fairly rife with offsets?

C. x powellii is fairly sterile (some are entirely so) so you will rarely, if ever, find seeds. The pollen of JC Harvey is good, while the pollen of xpowellii varies from good to "useless" depending on clone. I'm not certain of the seed-bearing ability of JC Harvey...........Cecil Houdyshel produce seeds easily form self-fertilization. Does your plant make seed?

Looking forward to seeing what else you can supply, bsharf!

R.

We can compare it to this rascal determined to bloom. It is JC Harvey put into a gallon pot last October, thoroughly ignored through 5-- 28F freezes. I noticed it putting up a scape (which defies all crinum experience I've ever had for this early in the year ). I decided any crinum behaving in this manner deserved a permanent home, so I plopped it (a real technical term there) into the back border. Watch it offset like crazy and never bloom again for me.

Robert,you are our resident crinum expert. I'm working more with the smaller species these days because of the sheer size of some of these. Very hard for me to dig and find room for more large species. Rain lilies behave much better for me!
Debbie

This message was edited Mar 26, 2007 1:04 PM

Debbie~

Oh, so now I have a reputation to live up to? YIKES! :-)

I have a funny feeling that your pic of JC Harvey is actually a Hippeastrum........Now that's just a feeling, mind you........The foligage is a too wide and blunt for JC and I'm not seeing the deep mid-rib......but I do agree, if this is JC Harvey, it is unusual for it to bloom right off the bat as the foliage first emerges. Around here anyway, with our colder winters.

Is there any chance of a mix-up?

R.

Robert--anything and everything is possible with that one. It came from that homestead that we had that rather long discussion on Ismene's last fall. Do you recall that? Well that unknown Ismene still sulks....

I just took a picture of of another of the same bulbs, I just kept a couple of the JC Harvey's (or alledgedly JC Harvey's) because I knew they weren't the most desirable of crinums; if you have limited crinum real-estate. The camera is acting real oddball at this second about uploading--let me fiddle with it a minute. It may need fresh batteries. These were real large bulbs, but I'm quite open to the possibility that it could be anything at all. It was originally identified by someone we both know rather well on IBS--we'll take that discussion side bar. ;)

We may have a real 'mystery date" thread here after all!
Debbie

Guess it helps if the camera is plugged into the computer--its buddy in a pot with some glads, where it will continue to sit until I have time to deal with it. No where near ready to bloom.

I have a crinum with many off shoot (babies) when is the best time to remove the babies?
Thanks,
Patti

Rose--
I think fall (Oct) is best down here, but anytime the soil is moist and soft enough to dig them is when I usually end up doing it (which is now). I've dug them in winter and spring too. The ground is just usually too dry and its too much work in the summer. Robert would know optimum time.

Robert--
I would actually be much happier if it is that amaryllis St. Joseph's Lily rather than JC Harvey. I've been wanting that old heirloom as the only Amaryllis I want to grow. I just don't want to buy it. I doubt this is it though, I detect no bronze foliage. I don't have a single other Amaryllis to compare it to (I know--really bad for a bulb enthusiast--but I'm into small bulbs). I'm glad I only went along on that "jaunt" for the narcissus bulbs. I know three other guys gonna definitely not be pleased when I show them this blooming if its not JC Harvey. One of the joys of living in Houston as opposed to North Texas. ;)

That one looks more like a Crinum, Debbie, and doesn't seem to be the same as the plant in Post #3322225. Of course, this could just be the way they look to me. 8-)

Time will tell us everything....

Patti~

Anytime they're growing is a good time to divide Crinums. At the beginning of the season gives the motherbulb and offsets plenty of time to reestablish and grow all season. If you do it quickly and soon enough, they will often *not* miss a bloom cycle as is often said. In your warm zone, you could almost do it year-round. *Almost*. I'd say try to do it earlier than later and not as winter approaches, but that could possibly mean October or even November there.

And do watch that you cover the fleshy roots between being their dug and replanted and keep them out of direct sun. They will dry out in a heartbeat! I spray mine with the hose and cover with newpaper or somesuch so that the roots are as healthy and as hydrated as possible. They take right off.

R.

I have JC Harvey in the ground which has just been uncovered so there isn't any foliage yet. But I have three small ones potted up that were indoors and have some foliage.

Here are some shots of the plants. The foliage is paler than "normal" and of course small but proportional to the bulb size. It doesn't yet display the strong ridged mid-rib but you can see the beginnings of some of the corn-like "grooves".

Notice too that even the small ones have necks which are present aboveground unless they are killed back by frost. I mulched the ones in the ground and the necks are there as well.

The foliage is narrow and has a long tapered tip.

This message was edited Mar 26, 2007 5:17 PM

Notice too that even the small ones have necks which are present aboveground unless they are killed back by frost. I mulched the ones in the ground and the necks are there as well.

The foliage is narrow and has a long tapered tip.

oops! I thought I caught that........

Great pics Robert--I'd say that is definitely not JC Harvey which makes me suspect as to the second one too. Quite frankly I will not be greatly disappointed. I don't have room for another large crinum unless its one I REALLY want--and JC Harvey wasn't on my list. I'm going to pluck that other one out of the pot and put it in the ground with its about to bloom buddy.Whatever it is, its older than the hills. I'll dmail you a pic when it blooms--maybe you might have some idea which one it is. And they definitely aren't virused, as you would suspect an amaryllis of that age to be.

Its definitely not any of the multitude of the Hymenocallus I have. I am trying to collect some of the small crinum species. I like those, they are easy to dig!

All I can say is it sure don't look like Crinum lugardiae, Crinum amaricanum, or Carnival. And definitely not amarcrinum as I have way too many of those. And that's what I'm down to as far as crinums go except--

it sure sure don't look like Ellen either. ;)

This message was edited Mar 26, 2007 5:03 PM

I will get some more photos tomorrow. Sounds like an interesting quest to learn its identity. I'm not a Crinum person, just an Amaryllis nut. The clump at the library is a good 6 x 8 ft in size.

I'm glad you are an amaryllis nut bsharf! Maybe you will be able to help me with my JC Harvey imposter. =)

Are these too little to remove now?
Patti

Thanks Deb and Robert for all your help.
Patti

This message was edited Mar 26, 2007 9:26 PM

Patti~

Not at all. Go for it.

They do better when they have some root already, but the darn things are so tough that they will work with what you throw at them! Yours seem to have good roots already.

Isn't that C. asiaticum variegatum?

R.

Robert,
Thanks I will do that. Yes it's a Crinum Asiaticum variegatum. Here is the mother plant.
Patti

Is this Crinum asiaticum var. procerum?
Patti

Looks like C. procerum 'Splendens', but might be one of the other red-leaved forms of C. procerum.

R.

Thanks Robert with all your help.
Patti