Stream with small pond

I want to create a small stream without a large pond. Since this is a 1910 house I want to design a small stream that would fit the theme. The yard has a slight incline and I would like a small waterfall, maybe 2 ft tall and the stream water fall area range between 2-3 ft wide max. The stream would be approx. 30-40 ft long ending in a small, shallow as possible pond. I want to do this is fabric, not preforms. I know a pump is required. Any suggestions are welcome.

Kathy

Hi Kathy,

How small/shallow are you hoping for your pond? It will need to be large enough to feed the stream without sucking dry. You'll also want to make sure, when the pump is off, you have enough room in your pond for all the water in the streambed so you don't flood your yard every time you turn it off. I have a 70 foot stream and it takes quite a while for the water to drop back into the pond when I first get it started. If I had to guess, I'd say my stream holds at least 200 gallons, possibly more. What size pump are you planning on? To have a 2-3 foot wide stream, you'll need a decent size pump. Mine pumps 5600 gph and the stream is only about 2 feet wide, and the water about 3 inches deep. From my pump to the highest point in the stream is about 6 foot vertical rise. I don't know the calculations off-hand, but that reduces my overall gph. I figure I'm only pumping about 5000 gph.

Have you considered a pondless waterfall as another option since you seem to be more interested in the stream than a pond? Either way, it sounds like it will be a lovely addition to your landscape. Do you have pictures you can post of the area?

You sound like the perfect stream person for me. This sounds like what I want to end up with. I don't care about a pond at all. I just want a small waterfall and stream. I'll take pics tomorrow. Your stream sounds exactly what I have in mind. I have no idea, yet, what size pump I need since we've done no calculations, just in the very early planning stage. I want my stream about 2 ft wide and about 3 inches deep - just like the old stream that would have ran in 1910 to cool the milk, for an example. Pond doesn't concern me at all. The small falls and stream is what I want. Never thought I could do it without the pond.

I'll post pics in the a.m.

Thank you so much, your stream sounds very much like my idea.

Kathy

Here is the top area - early thoughts

Another view

near house view

The tacky yard when we first moved and needed fencing asap for the dogs. The fence will be moved to the yard boundry, about where I'm standing when taking the picture. This fence will be moved.

Any suggestions welcome. I want a small pond, as small as possible.

Kathy

Hi Kathy,

From what you've described, I'd think you'd be happiest with the pondless waterfall. That's actually what I started to build, but I changed my mind mid-stream (no pun intended ;o) and decided I wanted a pond afterall. For a picture of a pondless waterfall, check out this link: http://www.russellwatergardens.com/PONDLESSWATERFALLS.htm The concept is the same whether you have tall waterfall like this one, or a longer stream with shorter falls like you've described.

Here's what you will need:

- 45 mil EPDM liner - at least 5' wide by however long you want your stream - add a couple feet extra for good measure. I used 10' wide on my stream because I had some twists and turns. If your stream path is fairly straight you'll be fine with 5' wide.

- Underlayment - you can use old carpet, cardboard or several layers of newspaper. You can also buy underlayment if cost is not an issue.

- a submersible pump

- some sort of pump house to protect the pump but still allow water in. The website above sells them, but I'm sure you can DIY for much less.

- 2 inch pipe - pvc works fine and is cheap, but flexible tubing is easier (and more expensive)

- Optional - some type of waterfall basin at the start of your waterfall. This produces a wider falls from the start (versus water just shooting from a round hose/pipe). This basin could also function as a biological filter to help keep the water clearer. This isn't necessary because you won't have any fish - you could easily treat your water with chemicals periodically if it starts turning ugly colors. But if you'd rather go natural, the biofilter falls might be a good option.

- lots and lots of rocks - baseball/softball sized rocks for the "pond", larger rocks in and around the stream.

Here's a few pictures of my stream. It is not totally complete in any of these pictures, but mostly

This message was edited Mar 20, 2007 2:17 PM

Here's another view

One of my waterfalls

Is the liner just as cheap at hardware stores (lowes, etc) and anywhere else? I looked today at Lowes and I think their 10 x 40 is $40. I think there must be something else I can use for the pump basin but what I've read it needs a lid on the basin. Did you also get your pump from Lowes type store or a fish type store? I know Drsfosterandsmith.com has fish pumps cheaper sometimes.

I have clicked on your pictures yet but I wanted to thank you for the very helpful info. I"ll be back here asking you questions, if you don't mind.
Kathy

Is the last picture with the fall a plastic liner or do you have a preformed fall? It's stunning. I hope to get the teenagers to haul rocks for me...and buy the small pebbles for the streams base. It's beautiful - very natural.

Not all liners are created equal. I would strongly recommend the 45 mil EPDM liner. Yes, it's more expensive, but it is really worth the extra $$ to get a quality liner. It would be a major bummer to build your stream and then have to tear it all up and replace the liner in a few years. 45 mil EPDM will last 20+ years if covered with stone (i.e., not exposed). I have never seen this type of liner at local hardware stores. Some pond stores will carry it, but the price is usually much higher than ordering online. The link below is a decent price and the cost includes delivery. You can find it cheaper per square foot from other sources, but delivery is not usually included so you need to take that into consideration when comparing prices.

http://www.watergardencreations.com/main/productDetail.asp?prodid=717

My stream and waterfalls are all liner - no preforms. I carved the stream bed and the falls before laying down the liner then I covered with rock.

Sorry, forgot to answer the other questions. I got my pump from Russell Watergardens, but there may be better sources. There are a number of considerations to take into account when choosing a good pump. We can get into those details in another post when you're ready to purchase one. But I'd have to say pump and liner are the two things that will cost the most (assuming you don't have to buy all your rocks - farms and construction sites are often good sources for rocks - but ask first ;o). Everything else has a cheaper alternative without sacrificing quality.

You are wonderful to help. I showed my hubby the pictures when I got home. He agreed, it's beautiful and NATURAL! I love it. I need to measure the distance for the pond. I think right now the thing I need the most research on will be the size of the basin to hold all water when the pump would be off. I'm a bookkeeper but this is a completely different thing. Toby is a man of all trades (and retired Chief of Police - good police, lol, as I tell him). He will know how to help me, I hope.

Toby is concerned with what I do during winter - I say, drain it. You stream is longer but do you run it all winter? Your winters must be worse than mine in VA.

Toby is moving the fence now, so it extends to our border but I think I want the stream to end up about twice the distance it is now. I'll check out the web site and tomorrow will measure my stream estimates. I feel much better about doing this with help from you. How deep is your pond in most areas?

I would definately prefer a pondless stream. I saw one site that showed the ending basin with river pebbles scattered, naturally, over the basin area but water stood about 1-2 inches (the shihtzu's will love that).

First - I'm going to decide on an approx. length, next I need to figure out the basin size. I will use the higher quality liner.

Thanks,
I'll check back tomorrow.
Kathy

Hi Kathy,

If I remember correctly, the instructions I received when I was considering a pondless waterfall said to make the basin about 2.5 feet deep and 6-7 feet in diameter. That will hold over 500 gallons but the rocks will take up a good bit of room too. A 40 foot stream, 2 feet wide and 3 inches deep will hold approximately 125 gallons. So those dimensions might work fine. You might want to get a more technical opinion though about how much volume you will have left for water once the basin is filled with stones. I'd try to aim for at least double what you need to feed your stream (250 gallons of water). If you want to have a couple inches of water over the stones, then you will have overflow issues when you shut off the stream. If you plan for it, that doesn't have to be a problem though. Maybe have a bog garden just beyond the pond??

I do not run my waterfall all winter. Some people do, but a long stream can be a major challenge to run once ice starts building up. Ice dams can alter the flow and if it channels out of your streambed you could run your basin dry in minutes. That's not good for the pump. If you shut down for the winter, you should probably take your pump inside for storage. This means you will need to uncover your pump house each fall. For that reason, I would make sure the pump house is almost as deep as the "pond", so that the cover is just a few inches below the surface. This way it will not be such a huge chore to unbury. I wouldn't bother draining the pond though - just let it freeze. You'd also want to drain your pipes in the winter unless they are buried below frost line.

I forgot to mention that your basin needs to be lined as well. So you will need another piece of liner. This link will help you determine the size you will need for the basin depending on the shape you decide on. http://www.geocheminc.com/pondlinercalc.htm

Christina

http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=17476

I found this site while doing some internet searching. Look how the basin they have holds water. The stream doesn't look very long at all but it shows a few step-by-step ideas that may simplify some issues. What are your thoughts on this stream?

Toby and I talked about the stream last night and it appears my stream will be 60-70 feet long. Now I can go by your info a bit better. I also want a 2-3 ft max wide stream with about 3 inches deep. I'm assuming my pump should be about the same size as your pump. We haven't determinded the vertical rise yet.

Kathy

HI Kathy,

The link you found looks like a great resource. The basin is exactly what I was trying to describe - you basically dig out a pond, put a pump house in the middle and then fill around it with stone. The pump house needs to have many small holes as shown in the picture. Does the article tell you how to make one? (I didn't read the whole article yet).

I would say that you'll want a pump that pushes between 4000-5000 gph to get the width and depth you want. Be careful of high watt pumps that are rated for maximum head greater than what you need. I made that mistake the first time - bought a 4500 gph pump with 20' maximum head. The flow was great, but because it was designed to allow 20' head, the cost to operate was about $50 per month. My new pump cost about $20 per month and I get more gph out of it.

Edited - I just noticed the article has a helpful section on pump sizing. Based on their calculations, a 70 foot stream has 7 feet of head just by length alone. Then you want to add the actual elevation change from top of stream to bottom. If you have a gently flowing stream with small waterfalls, you're probably only talking another couple feet or so. The other thing I noticed is their calculations call for 5 gallons of water per linear foot. This adds up to 350 gallons for a 70 foot stream - that seems a little high to me...I still think about 200 is closer. Even if you start with 2.5 or 3 feet wide, once you put rocks along the edges, you're going to end up with 2 feet of stream. It will also look more natural if you vary the width - make some sections narrower than others.

This message was edited Mar 21, 2007 1:13 PM

There are 2 pumps on sale at
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=14223&N=62728+2033+113358

Model Dimensions Max gph Maxhead* Watts
PSP 2700 6-3/4" x 8-1/2" x 9-1/2" high 2,700 26 ft 400...$45 on sale (50% off)
PSP 3400 6-3/4" x 8-1/2" x 9-1/2" high 3,400 29 ft 700....$60 (also 50% off)

I know PSP is lower than the 4000 you suggest but I may shorten the stream a bit and won't exceed 2 ft wide. Think either would work?

Kathy, I think you'd be fine with 3,400 gph even if you don't shorten the stream. I really don't know a whole lot about submersible pumps - I am more familiar with external. But I do know that the 3,400 gph pump you listed above is going to be a big jump on your electric bill operating at 700 watts. However, the beauty of a pondless stream is you can shut it off at night or when you're not home so it won't be running 24/7 like you would need to with a pond. The other thing I know about submersibles is, in general, they do not last as long. Typically 3-4 years is all you will get out them. But that's not bad for $60.00.

Christina

We actually did true measurements last night. If I put the fall on the little hill in the first picture I posted above and cut into it for levels, and ended where I would like to end it - it would be about 6 or 7 ft rise. If I start the falls start where I've begin to dig out, just by the tree and used the natural slop it would be a 4 -5 ft rise. The lenght will not exceed 60 feet, probably more like 50-55 max before the pump area.

I called the company you listed for pumps and gave her the estimates I had yesterday (3-4 ft rise, 60 ft stream, 2 ft wide, 3-4 inches deep) and she said at 3500 gph would work and the watts on their pump was 595 or so. Would it really make that much difference? I will be starting the pump about 7 a.m. and ending by 10 p.m. for the most part. I think for the price I would be fine for 3-4 years of service but will it do the lift I want? I won't want a rushing stream, just a gentle brook.

Kathy

what does it mean '20 ft head'?

Here's a link that might help: http://www.garden-pond-pumps.com/waterpumphead.htm

I think you'll be quite happy with the flow you will get from a 3500 gph pump. The stream will definitely move quickly but I wouldn't call it "rushing". With my stream, I actually wouldn't mind a slightly slower flow, but I know that I need the gph I have in order to have my stream as wide as I want it. Slower flow means less water, less water means the stream will not be as wide. (approx 125 gph is need for every inch of stream width). Turning it off at night will keep the operating costs down a bit.

One last comment - put your stream exactly where you REALLY want it, and make it as long as you REALLY want. If you don't you might always wish you had :o) This word of advice is from someone who built a small pond with 10 ft stream and waterfall in 2005 and then tore it all up in 2006 to build what she REALLY wanted! I love my pond, but my stream is what I love the most and it's where I spend most of my time.

Great advice. Toby and I agreed it must go WHERE I want it and as long as I want it. I received a call about the pump and a stock issue so I cancelled that. I found a 3500 GPH with only 404 watts for $104 and free shipping. It's from bestnest.com. I feel better about this pump with less watts and it was regular - $189. 100% customer satisfaction and the site has great reviews.

Now the liner. I know the 45 ml is going to cost a fortune for 60 ft. Lowes price, I checked again today, was 5x10 ft for $40. A local pond guy is having a sell on liners for his price plus shipping but Toby said it will cost $600+ at his price. We're going to use carpet, etc for underlayment. We think a construction plastic of less than 45 ml would work, with no fish and a gentle flow. And knowing me, I'll be ready for a change in 3 years and want to redo it. I redo my yard most of the summer, moving perennials, etc. $600 plus for the liner isn't something I want to spend.......

I'll check your site. You're so kind to help me with this project. And you know tons about this - how did you learn so much about the details?
Kathy

http://www.bestnest.com/bestnest/RTCart.asp

Here is the site where I ordered the pump AND I just ordered 5.5 x 50 (45 mil) for $134 and free shipping !! Firestone makes the liner for this company. I can't believe the price. I'm so excited!! I'm going to buy the local piece for $40 to do the waterfall and basin, I guess. That one piece should do both ends. I also believe we have a few heavy weight sections that will work on the fall and basin anyway.

I would not spend $600 on liner either!! I'm pretty sure my stream liner was about $300 or so (but that's for 10' wide, 5' wide would be less). I will try to find the website I got it from and post the link a little later. You will not find it for a good price in a retail store. Whatever you decide - EPDM or something different, it is always a good idea to have as few splices as possible. So try to aim for one piece for the entire stream if possible. Where there is a seam, there is always a potential for leaks. If you do end up with more than one piece, it's not the end of the world. Just allow for at least 2 feet overlap, get some seaming tape that works for whatever type of liner you buy and arrange it so that the seams occur in a place where the stream is absolutely on a downward grade (versus in the middle of a still pool).

I'm not an expert, but I did do considerable research for mine and I learned a lot by trial and error as well ;o)

One seam will be at the falls and one at the basin, I'm going to MAKE IT WORK without piecing it together.

I can't believe the price . What a good deal.

Oops, we were posting at the same time. That's great news!

If the local piece is 5x10 it won't be large enough for the basin. You will probably need 15x15 for the basin. DEFINITELY get one piece for that - a stream can be successfully spliced - a basin will almost always be a problem unless it's done professionally - and even then there is a risk.

Do you know what size you are going to dig your basin? Will it be round, oval? There are calculators online that will tell you how much liner is needed for a pond (your basin).

I have NO idea about the basin - it's time for us to discuss that part. I want it only as large as it has to be. A rounded, natural shape. How big should it be? If the pond is now 2 ft wide, 50 ft long, how big? I know it has to hold all the water in the stream but how to I know - I'll go to the site to see calculations. I feel like I'm getting in over my head. Seems like one issue after another. I'm very pleased with the prices I've found so far. Now, about the basin......I also thought about getting the 5 gal buckets w/lids from Walmart ($5) and drilling the holes in it for the pump. I think that would work, what do you think?

I'm going to lay out the stream basic path this weekend and then work on the falls, but the basin? help

How did you figure the size of the basin? I called that company and they have the online calculator for oval or round etc but determining the water in a 2 ft wide x 50 ft long x 3-4 in deep stream - how big will the basin need to be? I'm really starting to stress a bit, just a bit!

Your stream sounds like it will hold about 180 gallons. I think you should make your basin large enough to hold about 300 gallons of water so you don't run the pump dry. Since the basin will be filled with stone as well, it will need to hold more than 300 though. I would say make it a 6 x 6 circle, 2.5 feet deep. A hole of that size will hold 525 gallons and will require a liner 15 x 15 feet. I wouldn't go any smaller unless you can find a way to cover the basin so that you don't need to fill it with stone. You can probably get away with something other than 45 mil liner for this - the most important thing being that it is one piece. Just don't use jagged rocks in the basin.

I think a 5 gallon bucket might be too small. You want it to be almost as deep as the basin (2.5 feet) so you can easily push aside the stone covering it and pull out the pump for winter. If your bucket is only a foot tall, there will be 1.5 feet of stone on top of it. Also, the larger the barrel, the less stone you have to use and more room for water. You could use a round trash barrel with a cover. Other options are to check with local restaurants, car washes or manufacturing plants to see if they give away (or sell for a small price) used barrells. I got two 55 gallon barrells from the coca cola plant nearby. They cost me $5 each. The RD link you found tells you what size holes to drill - and how far apart.

P.S. I know how you feel. I felt TOTALLY over my head when I was building mine. There is a lot of information to consider. I would just say - don't rush it. I know it's exciting and you want to get moving on it - but take the time to study the website you found and consider each part before you start building or digging. You're definitely on the right track. And don't forget to have fun!

P.P.S. I can't believe you can dig already. We still have 8 inches of snow on the ground - BOOOO

Oh what work this is going to be. Why can't it be a simple process? How did you figure the basin size of 6x6 for that many gallons? I don't need 500+ gallons of water - DO I? As we talked about earlier in the post maybe 300 gallons. I'm shooting for a 45 ft stream now. I ordered 50 ft of plastic and after we walked it off it really is plenty. If I didn't consider cost I would not go more than 55 ft anyway. I'm going to rest on this. I'm so excited and yet so worried.

I know, I need to have fun or it's not worth it. BUT, it's a bit overwhelming. Explain how to know what gallons of water the 'pond' will need to be. I can't seem to get that in my head.

It was 70 today. Of course it was 40 yesterday. I have trees budding out. It's been crazy temps in Va this year. January was almost as warm as Sept and Feb was colder than December. Poor plants are flipping out.

Be patient with me, I just need to understand how we get these numbers and feel good about it.

No, you do not need 500 gallons of water, you probably only need 250-300 (remember that 180 will always be in the stream while the pump is running which leaves you with only 70-120 gallons left in the basin). The reason why the basin needs to be large enough to potentially hold 500 gallons is because you are going to fill up the basin with rocks for that pondless effect. Once the rocks are in place, you'll only be able to add as much water as can fit around and in between the rocks. I read in one site that up to 80% of the basin's available volume will be taken up with rocks. Based on that calculation, your basin would only hold 100 gallons of water once it's filled with stone. That will not be enough to feed your stream. So either you need a bigger basin or you need to find a way to make your basin hold more water. That's why I recommended a large barrel for the pump "house". If you get a 50 gallon barrel and set it in the middle of the basin, then arrange the rocks around the barrel, this will reduce the amount of rock you need and, at the same time, allow more room for the water (the entire barrel will be filled with water and pump). Another thing to consider is the smaller the rock, the more compact it will be and the less water you can get around. So you probably want to use larger, irregular shaped rocks on the bottom, and get progressively smaller as you get to the top (for that gravel look on the surface). Basically, you want to leave as many nooks and crannies for water as possible but still make it solid enough to walk on.

All this being said, I'd also do some more research. Perhaps call one of the vendors who make pondless waterfalls and see if they will give you some advice about your basin size (you might want to leave off the fact that you already bought equipment and supplies elsewhere!!) While I am pretty certain that you cannot go smaller than 500 gallons (I'm talking about size again, not the amount of water) for your basin, I did not end up going the pondless stream route so this is where my experience drops off and I'd feel better knowing you got a professional's opinion as well.

Yes, it can be a little stressful - you want to do it right and it seems like so much information to process. But you'll get through it. I just want to emphasize again the value of reading and research. Don't just read one website's directions - read several. Read everything you can find on the subject. I found that it was a lot less stressful the second time around because I felt more prepared and had a much more solid picture in my mind of what I wanted and how to accomplish it.

I'll keep looking for better information on your basin and I'll post anything I find.

Thank you so much for the detailed and completely understandable info. I see what you mean about the basin not holding so much water, just volume. What Toby and I thought seemed really large was thinking of digging out a 6 x 6 x 2.5 deep hole! Tons of dirt. Oh my!! LOL

How do you figure the 180 for the stream? lenght x width x depth - in inches/ft and x 7.6 or something like that? I don't recall where I saw this.

I see how the plastic barrel will make all the difference and save on heavy rock hauling. We talked last night and Toby is sure I need to slow down, if it takes 3 or 4 weeks, no big deal. Just chill out and do it bit by bit. I've considered a pond at the bottom if I'm going to dig something that large anyway but, don't want more than 1 or 2 fish and I would want it shallow so still adding large rock. Any comments on this approach?

Let me know how, for reference in the event I do make distance changes, how to figure the water gallons in the stream.
Thank you again for all your wonderful help.

Kathy

I dug a pond last spring 16x19 by 2.5 feet deep. I did it by hand, and by myself. It didn’t take nearly as long as I thought it would. So, your basin might not be as bad as it sounds either. Getting started is usually the hardest part! You could probably do it easily in a weekend, especially if you can cajole your teenagers into helping! The dirt can be used in your waterfall and stream area if you need to build up anywhere. Save any rocks you uncover while digging as they can be used in the basin after.

I got your stream calculations from a pond volume calculator online, but it was based on the 50 foot stream. A 45 foot stream with maximum width 2 feet will be approximately 140 gallons. Here’s the link: http://www.koicarp.net/beginners_corner/pond_volumes.html

Now, on to your question of whether you should make your basin a pond since you’ll be digging one anyway….this is exactly the question I began asking myself 2 years ago and what got me on the road to building a pond instead of a pondless waterfall. AND, this is also where I made most of my mistakes the first year! I love my pond and don’t regret building it for a minute – but there are several things you should consider before deciding.

First the pros:

1. A pond is a thing of peaceful and serene beauty
2. A pond is fun to watch. Frogs, fish, water critters will find their way to your pond and can provide hours of enjoyment.
3. Since you’re a gardener, a pond will give you the opportunity to delve into the wonderful world of water gardening. Aquatic plants are beautiful and look lovely reflected in the water.
4. In my opinion, a stream or waterfall looks prettier and more natural when it falls into a pool of water (instead of gravel basin).

Now the cons:
1. A pond is more maintenance than a pondless feature
2. A shallow, small pond is actually harder to maintain than a larger, deeper one
3. A pond really should have filtration (mechanical and biological) for optimum water quality and to minimize maintenance.
4. A pond will be more expensive to build and maintain

Ponds are not for everyone, but most people who build one love it and it becomes a new passion (some call it an addiction). It’s ultimately your decision, but I would just offer this advice: if you aren’t sure – wait. You can always take your basin and turn it into a pond at a later date. I got the impression from your earlier posts that you are most interested in the stream. If that’s your real interest, focus on that for now. But if you think you’d really enjoy a pond, we can start exploring your options. I have plenty of opinions about how to build one ;o)

Here's mine


This message was edited Mar 23, 2007 10:34 AM

Oops, it didn't take. Try again