Taking the plunge

Another newbie here. I have recently ordered a new greenhouse kit and would appreciate any input other members have. I am in central AR, zone 7b I believe. I ordered a 12x14 Cross Country green house from a company called ACF greenhouses. I am fairly tall and was concerned about headroom in the greenhouse, so have built my foundation out of 6x6 treated lumber. I have it raised by about 2 ft to get more headroom.

According to the calculation that I used on their website, I will need about a 19k electric heater. I was hopeing to use some electric that is already out near where the GH will be put up, but just realized today that although it is a 220v circuit it is only rated for 20amps. I don't know what the wire size is either, so am assuming I will have to run a better circuit to be able to keep it warm enough in the winter.

If their are any other members in my area that also have a greenhouse I would appreciate hearing from them as to about what it costs to heat their GH.

Not sure what I want to grow yet either. Bedding plants for sure, and also to be able to overwinter some tropicals. Other than that I don't have a clue, just know that I have always liked to grow things, and am just now getting to a point in my life that I can take the time to do so. However I still won't be able to devote "full-time" to the GH, so will have to make sure everything that can be automated is done so, as I may have to be gone a week or two at various times of the year.

I am so new to this I don't even know what questions to ask at this point, but I am sure as time goes on I will have more and more......so thanks for any help anyone has to offer.

Nautical99

Nautical,

"Not sure what I want to grow yet either." This decision will drive everything else, so it may not be possible to get accurate estimates of costs without knowing what you will use the GH for. This is step one. ;-)

Digital Dave is the electric guru around here, I'm sure he'll chime in. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but my calculations show that a 19K BTU heater will use 5566W and with 220V that is about 25 amps. Sound right? With your circuit, the most you could get safely would be 12K BTU, with little capacity for anything else.

I wrote a thread on calculating the costs of heating a GH. If you search, you should be able to find it. If not, I can give you a link to it elsewhere.

Hope that helps.

SB

SB, I think that 25 amps is correct for that heater I want to use. I think it is made by "king"? or maybe that is just the name of the heater.

I estimate that the greenhouse is probably 100' from where I want to get the electric from. My plan is to take a tap off of my outside A/C panel. It is a 220v 60amp circuit. As I don't need the A/C in the winter time I think it should be ok to take a tap off of that panel. It is located outside, on the opposite side of the house that the GH is going to be. So would have to run up into the eve, across the attic, down the far wall, then underground to the GH. I am thinking probably at least 100'. That is also the side of the house I will have to run my water pipe in. I don't think it is "code" but I would like to run the electric in the same ditch I make for the water. (Does it have to be in a seperate conduit? or is underground type romex ok) I also am not sure about the wire size. I was hoping to just use #10 wire, but maybe the experts here can guide me. Maybe I will need #8.
Also, is there a recommended panel to be used inside the GH? I want to have a small panel out there with enough breakers for the heater, some outlets, a general light of some kind, and also some grow lights if I determine I need them later. Do all of these circuits need to be "GFCI" circuits? Or is the grounding of the main wire feeding the GH sufficient? What do most people do?

About the water......The only easy place for me to get the water is from an existing outside hose bibb. I plan on haveing the bibb un-soldered, a tee put in, and run the pipe straight down in the ground, then underground a foot or so out to the GH. Once out there, do I need to put in a frost/free type hydrant, that closes underground? or just a ball valve to shut the sytem off? I will have to build some type of box on the outside of the house,and use heat tape or some other means to protect the pipe where it will run from the hose bibb down to the ground. I am sure open to any ideas on this, I am sure everyone else has had to deal with this at some point. :)

Thanks,

Skip

Thanks,
skip

Hi nautical - just a ways down highway 65 from Springfield (though noticeably warmer in Summer and Winter).

SB is right on.
25 amps dictates #10 copper wire (good for 30 amps). This would be the minimum size and probably OK unless there is a very long distance from the distribution panel to the heater. If so, the voltage will drop a bit at the heater and you won't get the full 5.5 kW (no big deal though).

Running on electricity will be expensive (not that propane or natural gas is cheap at all). Look into a ground source heat pump if the greenhouse is out in the yard and you have the ability to dig trenches. A heat pump (essentially an air conditioner working in reverse) can "stretch" the electricity usage a long way (2-3 times as efficient as electric resistance heat) although the capital cost for the equipment and labor will hurt alot up front. Heres a good link for ground source heat pumps that use the ground as a heat source instead of the air...
[HYPERLINK@www.cogeneration.net]

There are some good threads around about greenhouse energy storage. In a greenhouse you have some storage opportunities that are much easier than if you were just looking in a home. Simply keeping large buckets or barrels of water under the benches is the easiest way. The water absorbs heat all day long and radiates it back at night. (You need a lot to really make a difference but with energy costs going no where but up it makes sense.)

If you're simply overwintering tropicals or starting bedding plants you won't need to keep the temperature warm at all (45-50). But many of us who start that way develop an expensive habit of trying to grow all sorts of exotic things that don't like to get below 60 degrees at night. That's when things really get expensive.

Good luck - Dave.

You re-replied while I was replying so here's a few more thoughts.
I think the #10 (3-wire with ground) will do. I think the voltage drop for 100' will probably be acceptable (just 3-4 volts).

I don't think there is any problem running the electric in the same ditch. Just be sure you protect the cable from any rocks. Direct buried romex (UF) should do the trick. I can't quote the electric code (my expertise is really dealing in Megawatts and kilovolts) but I suspect you will need a disconnect switch at the meter location with GFI breakers. A small distribution panel in the greenhouse would be handy since you will have to split the incoming 240V to feed your 120 V circuits for fans, lights, etc.

I ran the water out of my basement and up into the greenhouse once inside it. This avoids any freezing problems. If you can, put the tee under the house where it cannot freeze. IMHO, passive solutions (not depending on heat tape) are always the way to go.

Dave.

Nautical, the kind of planning you are doing makes for a successful GH project!

I agree with DD, no problem running water and electric in the same trench as far as I know. You should drop a telephone line (or something similar) in the trench at the same time. It is an inexpensive way to ensure that you can hardwire a GH alarm in the future if you choose to do so.

I think most people recommend GFCI protection, whether it is at the breaker or at the outlet. I think "in-use" outlet covers are a good idea, too.

Probably not the norm, but I plan on running a network cable at the same time as the rest of the hookups. I may find some spiffy software I could use from a laptop in the GH.

Dave, I will definatly look into a local dealer and the possibilities of using a heat pump. Our cheapest utility here in Conway is electric. It costs me less to cool my home with electric than it does to heat it with natural gas. That was why I chose the electric heater over a gas fired heater. The gas is on the same side of the house as the water, so I could run a gas pipe in the water trench, just figured the electric would be cheaper to run.

About the electric. I don't think I gave enough info for you to see the whole picture. I just want to make sure I am not getting to do something I will later regret. :) The power comes from the meter, to a panel inside the garage. From there, via a 60 amp breaker if feed a sub-panel on the outside of the house, where the A/C condensing units sit. I want to take a tap off of that circuit, to feed the panel in the GH. And I measured since my last post, and it looks like it is more like 160'. I guess what I am asking is, do I need to add yet another panel outside by the A/C units?

I wish I had a basement. I am still not sure of the reason, but they just don't build many houses here with basements. I am from far NE IL, right on the IL/WI border and Lake Michigan. Almost all homes their are built on basements. I am assuming the water pipes here are in, or under the slab that our house sits on. I just have not been able to figure a better way to get water to the GH other than what I described above. I agree, it would be better to not have to rely on the heat tape for freeze protection. I even thought about drilling a small hole next to the outside faucet, (it would come out under our bathroom sink) and hope that a small amout of heat would escape and heat the insulated box I planned on building over the pipe to keep it from freezing. The water pipe will come up under the GH and as long as it is heated I should not have to worry about that end.

I am sort of a weather nut also and run a weather station here at the house. www.skipsweather.com (home) or http://www.skipsweather.com/wx.htm - If you scroll down the wx.htm page u will see the readings coming from my sensor suite. I plan on adding another wireless sensor suite to the GH so that I can monitor max/min temp, humidity and keep up with what is going on in the GH from my computer here in the house, or from NE IL or where ever I have an internet connection. They also make a sensor that measures leaf wetness and soil moisture. This may be overkill I guess, but I am concerned that I may have to be gone for a few weeks at a time. My significant other would most likely be here, or I could call a friend to come tend to things if I knew what was really going on inside the GH.
With that said, I think running the cables are a good idea. I think I will run the standard phone line wire and also a Cat-5 cable. My network here at the house is hard wired, but maybe I should think about going to a wireless system.

Sorry to be so wordy, I really appreciate all the good input. Thanks to everyone.

Nautical99

Nautical, i have a crawl space under my house and that is where I tapped into the water line. There has to be a way for you to follow the source of the water from your outdoor spigot to where it comes from under the house. What I did was dig a ditch right where I brought the water from under the house and drilled a hole through the foundation where the water conduit could go through. I continued the ditch on out to the grhouse. I actually did it twice in two different places as I have more than one grhouse. I put the electric in the ditch as well. I also feed a different conduit for hot water, as it really comes in handy in propagating of any sort. Hot water will not lower the soil temps, which cold water does, and it takes about 6 hrs for the soil temp to come back up to room temp if you use cold. It doesn't take much extra to do it. Inside the grhouse you have to do a little extra soldering as you will have two different spigots that run into a single hose end, so you can add cold water to the hot.

I would definitely bury the water lower than a foot. I did 36" for the ditch, but 24" is probably ok. I have had the water freeze in a pipe that was running about 12" underground between two of the grhouses before. Every once in a while, the temps in the winter will drop lower than you think-as you know!

You mention that you could use your electric source as you don't need AC in the winter-but you will also need quite a bit of electric power in the summer to cool the grhouse down-something to consider.

I also have a 10' copper (?) pipe sunk into the ground for grounding purposes in case of lightening for all 3 grhouses. Thats a good thing to have. Someone else would know how to wire that-but it is easy.

You will love this grhouse when you are done...there is nothing better than working out there on a sunny day when the ground is covered with snow and you are warm inside. Speaking of snow-do you get much? How much weight can this grhouse hold?

TigerLily,

We don't have a crawl space at all, just a cement slab. The water comes in underground on the opposite side of the house. It would be a major excavation job to tap in there and run the water all the way around the house and to the GH.

I guess 12" really is not deep enough for the water. I will shoot for 2ft. Someone here told me that it would never freeze at 12", but I don't want to take that chance.

As for the electric, I think if I run #8 wire, I should have enough capacity when the A/C units are running. Maybe I am overlooking the required load in the summer GH. ACH's website state that the circulating fan and the exhaust fan only take 1 amp each. I can't find a spec on the motor for the vents, but don't think they should take much. Other than maybe a solenoid for controlling water for misters, I think I have enough capacity. I could also run some extra off the other 20 am circuit that is near the GH, as there is only about 12 amps max on that circuit now.

The website states it can withstand 40#/ft of snow load. We don't get snow very often, I think we may have had a dusting this year, but no accumulation. I don't think we had any last year, but the year before we did get like 5", and it was very wet and heavy. We are more likely to get ice than snow, but I think it should be ok, especially if it is heated. Of course as murphys law would state, first the ice storm will knock out the electricity, then the snow storm will collapse the roof. :)

I was considering putting a small electric water heater in the NE corner of the GH under a bench. I have not seen anyone mention this. Is this a bad thing to do? I understand the need for warm water for the plants. If a water heater is not a bad thing, would it not be feasible to also use the water heater as a small boiler and use radient heat pipes, under the beds to heat the GH. I think it would only take a small circulating pump, maybe 4- 10' lenghts of radient pipe and an expansion tank to make that work. I have considerable experience with hot water radient heat up north, and it is quite effecient, quiet, and very even heat. I suspect that the problem would be that it is slow, so it might not be able to keep up if there is a drastic temp drop.

Thanks for your help.

Nautical99

Dave,
I looked up on the Conway Corp website and found that our cost per k/hour is .05900 for the first 1000/kw, and .03700 after that.

If I use a 5,700 watt heater, can you figure what my cost per hour would be to run it. Thanks

Skip

I'll leave that one to SB, who has done the calculations many times.

Good idea about running telephone and ethernet cable of some kind in the trench too.

You can't go wrong with using larger wire than you might need (just the cost).

"Joint trench" is pretty standard in the utility industry with water at the bottom for freeze protection. Colored plastic tape is also put in the trench along with each utility (water, gas, electric, communications) to identify each if digging was ever required in the future.

I like the idea of a small water heater. The water in my GH is always too cold. Perhaps some kind of instant in-line heater with the temperature setting turned way down could also work. When I first built my current GH, I used an old hot water heater as a storage device and installed a fan at the top of a vent pipe to push the hot air from the top of the GH through the tank. A neat idea, but it didn't work very well.

I don't know about using a water heater with radiant hot water piping. I think a hot water furnace would be more efficient. I do like the idea of heating from below the plants (since heat rises).

Dave.

Nautical, are those rates for the first 1000kWH each month? Then it's 5.7*0.059=$0.3363/hr for the first 1000kWH and then 5.7*0.037=$0.2109 for the rest. To know when in the month the rate drops we'd have to know what your total kWH monthly usage is. To know the total monthly cost of heating the GH, we need to know the average outside temp in a given month, as well as the minimum GH temp.

Tigerlily123 has mentioned several times how much she likes having hot water in the GH. She says that watering seedlings or cuttings with cold water cools the soil temp for up to 6 hours. A fellow I know on another forum in CO has hot water in his GH as well, and he loves it.

I just store all the water for one watering in a storage tank. It is GH temp by the time I use it again the next day. It is not hot, but it is always 58F or better.

Digital_Dave and Stressbaby,

Thanks for your help with all this.

This is how they list their rates on their website. I am assuming that I will have already used the first 1,000 watts to run the rest of the house......but not sure, need to find last months bill.
But if it were to be the higher winter rate of .059, then it would cost $0.33 cents per hour to run the heater?

Summer Rates **********************Winter Rates
Customer Charge $6.00 ********* Customer Charge $6.00
All KWH EACH $0.06730********** First 1000 KWH EACH $0.05900
******************************************Over 1000 KWH EACH $0.03700
Minimum PER MONTH: $6.00

These are the average "minimum" temps I could find for Conway.
Oct = 50
Nov = 41
Dec = 32
Jan = 28
Feb = 32
Mar = 41
Apr = 50

These are the "Average" temps:
Nov = 52
Dec = 42
Jan = 39
Feb = 44
Mar = 53

I would like know about what it would cost me to keep the GH at a min temp of 60 degrees. At this time I don't even know what I am going to grow, but this will help me determine my options for later.

I know this is a lot of work. I appreciate all the help.

BTW. I lucked out on the electric. My sun had quite a bit of #6 wire left over from a house he was building. My electrician did not like the idea of tapping off of the A/C panel, so yesterday he set a new box with a 60 amp breaker alongside the meter and ran the wire up into the attic and down the other side of the house. I will only need another 60' of wire to complete the job. (Then my son has to figure out how he is going to get paid for his wire. lol)
Thanks for the help. I am still looking into heating with hot water. But if not then I am still going to put a small heater out in the GH, located on the fat NW corner.

Nautical99





This message was edited Mar 7, 2007 8:18 AM

Assumptions: 6mm twinwall standard Cross Country with 2' extra headroom, giving surface area (including elevated foundation) of 586 sq ft; min temp 60F.

Jan averages 8000BTU/hr, times 24hr times 31 days gives 5952000BTU/mo, divided by 3413BTU/KWH gives 1743KWH/mo. If this is your only electrical use, then 1000KHW at 0.059=$59, plus 743KWH at 0.037=27.49, for grand total of $86.49/mo. This will be lower, of course, if some of the electricity is charged the lower rate (because you get to 1000KWH faster with the house on the meter).

Here are the rest of the average monthly BTU...you can plug the numbers in for the 8000BTU/hr above:

Nov 3047BTU/hr
Dec 6856BTU/hr
Feb 6094BTU/hr
Mar 2666BTU/hr

This thread illustrates the calculation: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/644362/

This message was edited Mar 8, 2007 6:15 AM

Thanks so much, I have a good idea now what my costs are going to be. I have ck'd several of our old bills and the least we use is just over 1500 /kwh, so whatever I do in the GH should be at the lower rate.

Thanks again to everyone. I will post a few pics of the foundation and the GH as it goes up.

Thanks again.

Nautical99

Stressbaby,

Thanks again for all of your work with the math calculations. It has been a great help to me, and I am sure many others. Great work.

Nautical99

You're welcome, Nautical99, anytime.

A couple thoughts, and what I've found (apologies in advance if I get long-winded)...

1. As of right now, the interior of my (8x12, 4mm twin-wall) greenhouse is unfinished. My entire hope for this winter was merely "survival". What occurred over the winter has nothing short of, amazed me. The GH sits on a concrete slab on the W side of the house, but only feet from the house itself. The vegetable garden is on the W side of the GH. I removed two large trees last spring, that shaded all of my backyard, save for the area of the vegetable garden, so now the entire backyard gets full sun from the time the sun clears the house, until almost sundown, when the trees a street behind us provide some shade.

Electricity, this winter, was provided by two 80' extension cords, each plugged into their own outdoor circuit (20amp and 15amp, respectively). The only electrical devices in the GH are two small heaters, piggybacked into two thermostats [1]. No lights, currently. If it don't get done by sundown, and it ain't an emergency, it'll wait 'till the morning. =)

About the heaters [2]:

One heater is placed, on a piece if 4" lumber, just inside the doors, facing the interior of the GH (North). The second heater is placed just past halfway, facing the back wall, where the largest pots (with plants that I *really* didn't want to stress by put in nursery pots for the winter (Ficus, LARGE ivys, Dracaena marginata, etc).

I looked at what plants I was putting in there, and wanted to cover as wide of a range of temp needs as I could. Looking at my inventory, the most tender plants didn't like going below 50F, so that's what I set the thermostats at. I ran it that way for about three weeks, and it began getting colder out. The greenhouse heated nicely in the daytime, to around 75F, but nights were beginning to dip into the upper 40's. To compensate, I cranked the thermostats to 60F. I was now holding mid to upper 50's at night. Everything seemed to be doing well except one of two Cissus discolor that I had removed from being entangled around an iron post. I was pretty sure that this particular plant suffered damage, when attempting to untangle it, and put it on the small trellis that it now resided. Just to be safe, I cranked the thermostats to 65F. In January it began to get REAL cold outside, and I checked with the Billmaster to make sure I wasn't putting us in the poorhouse over some plants, and she said she hadn't noticed a real difference in the bill. We compared to last year's bills, and were running about $25 more per month. Needless to say, I set the thermostats to 70F and left them there. =)

My average temps since the last adjustments have been 84/64. I do believe I nailed it. =) The cost? A whopping $30 a month. Depending on one's situation, that could be a lot of money, or a little. In my case, it was do-able. Granted, your greenhouse is a bit larger than mine, and will cost a bit more, but this should give you a rough estimate of what you could expect. They say that electric is expensive, but I found it to not be *that much* more. This past week, the temps here have averaged 40-50 for a high, and teens-twenties for the lows. The GH has been running 88/62, with a couple days reaching the low 90's. Everything is thriving, and my cost is watering more often, which brings me to:

My current GH water situation:

There's a spigot, on the house, about 7' from the GH door. I fill a watering can, and I water the plants. To those that say that "the water right out of the tap is too cold for your GH plants", I say "hogwash" (not meaning to offend, merely to disagree). My plants have all thrived. The *only* casualties of the winter were the C. discolor, which I finally gave up on, and two enourmous Chlorophytum comosum that were in 5gal pots. These I rescued from a date with the dumpster, at work, at the end of last season. They were infested with several species of insects, and I was also tired of nursing them, , and didn't want the rest of my plants to be a buffet, so last month they "went". That's it. Everything else is absolutely thriving. Oxalis bloomed profusely all winter, as did the tropical Hibiscus. Geranium blooms came and went constantly, and several tender begonias never ceased adding splashes of red and white amonst the "filler" plants. Not one single plant showed any signs of stress from being watered with water right from an outdoor tap.

That being said, as the GH sits so close to the house, I don't really want to go to the trouble to try and dig a trench to bury a pipe, only to have it come right back up. My plan for the summer is to put a gang valve at the spigot, send the water, via PVC pipe, down the side of the house, and screw it to a coupler coming through the 4x6 wood base, where it will provide the source for the drip irrigation system (all parts here, but not installed yet). This will give me the flexibility to uncouple the pipe in the winter, remove the gang valve, and since the pipe enters the GH at the lowest point, it will make it easy to winterize the system. In the winter, I'll use my watering can, right from the spigot. =)

I'm not sure where Conway, AZ is, but I'd venture to say that burying your water line 12", would be plenty deep enough. It should be fairly easy enough to find out, by checking with your local government.

I guess what I've taken forever to say is, electricity is an affordable option for heat, in a small GH, and if you water without heating the water first, your plants will forgive you. You're beginning a very rewarding hobby that will consume your life. Let it, heh.

Good luck, and enjoy your new greenhouse. =)
Eggs


Notes:
[1]. http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CT%2D1000

[2]. http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=HT%2D2000

Only thing I would point out Egg is that electricity is undependable since it can and does go off. It's a good idea to have a backup heat source of some non-electrical type to cover you if you should ever have a power outage in your area. Believe me running for something to heat your greenhouse at 2 am is a major PAIN! I used electric at first till I had an outage at the worst possible time! Now I use it in conjunction with propane. Depending on your area and needs the propane could be your backup. In my area electricity is expensive so it's my backup and propane is my main heat fuel.

MollyD

Great point, MollyD. A generator is also a viable backup, for more than just the greenhouse. ;)

Eggs,
Could you please take a picture of how you plan on doing your piping for the water system. It kind of sounds like what I would like to do so............please show us your idea when you get there.
Carol

I sure will, Carol. I'm just waiting until it's warm enough to clear the greenhouse out, so I can move benches away from the walls. Probably looking at about 6 weeks until it's safe enough to begin that project. =)

Eggs-I should probably clarify a few things from my post above. I saw that Nautical was in 7b as I am, and seeing as how I had a water pipe freeze once that was 12" deep in the winter thats why I mentioned it. Maybe his winters are different than mine-but to me, it just makes sense when you are digging a ditch-make sure you only have to do it once. I think in the long run, that it is a lot easier to dig it a few inches deeper and be safe, then have to go redig it if some winter comes along that has unusually cold spells-which is what happened that winter. 7b means some cold weather every few years. Not to mention that I would think that you would want electrical more than 12" deep

When I am referring to having hot water in the grhouse-it is for germinating/propagating purposes-not for watering established plants. I also use cold water for watering and for fertilizing and see no problems ( although I will say that I think that the plants would probably benefit from using room temp water in the liquid fert rather than extremely cold water).
I grow for a living, so I germinate and propagate quite a bit, and I can say without hestitation that warm water keeps the soil temps up and cold temps lower the soil temps. As I have said before, it takes about 6 hrs to bring the soil temps back up to room/grhouse temps. Some plants,when germinating, need a consistent 70 degree soil temp-and you loose that when you water with cold water ( esp in the winter). Another example are caladiums. I have about 200 flats (18 pots/flat) of caladiums that I am forcing right now. I can't use cold water on them without setting back the process.
While I realize that others are not doing this for a living, or are doing smaller amts than I am-the rules still stay the same-cold water lowers the soil temps. I don't know what Nautical will end up doing with his grhouse-but germinating may very well play a part in it. That is why I mentioned throwing a hot water conduit in the ditch- hope that clarifies things a bit.

I am still sore from the little bit of digging I did two days ago, so the pipe will go in deep enough to not freeze. I don't want to dig it up again. :)

As a rank amatuer, I really don't know what I want to grow, just know that I want to. I am sure I will want to grow from seeds, so I will need all the help I can get. If warm water helps, then I will use warm water.

Many years ago, (over 30) I spent some time helping out a friend that was in the GH business. We lived in far NE IL, and winters are brutal. Al heated the greenhouses with steam. He had a large 50hp Cleaver-Brooks boiler. I know he ran steam pipes under the beds to keep the soil warm. Not sure for what plants though, he grew a lot of cut flowers for wholesalers. (pomps?) Then he also grew bedding plants for the spring time and pointsettas for Christmas. Unfortuanately I don't remember much about "how" he grew as I mostly helped him with plumbing projects, etc. I do remember he covered the long beds with a thick rubber mat, then ran a live steam hose under it and "steamed" the bedding soil to sterilize it. He always did this before he started his next crop.

I really think that is when I became so fascinated with growing flowers, etc. I am a mechanic by trade, and have been in the auto repair business for 31 years. Here are a few pics of my auto shop in far NE IL, so you can get an idea of how much I like flowers.

Guess I don't know how to post more than one pic at a time, so will add one to more msgs.

Nautical99

Another pic

Another

Last one.

Hopefully will get the water/elec/data ditch dug today. I have gotten an idea from a plumber friend from IL on how to keep the pipe from freezing where it will go down from the hose bibb on the side of the house into the ground and over to the GH.

He suggested taking a piece of 6" pvc pipe and cutting it length wise to create a half moon shaped piece of pipe. Then bury that deep in the ground, as tight to the house as possible, then insulate where necesary. He said to leave the bottom of the pipe open, and that there should be enough heat in the ground that will rise up that pipe and keep if from freezing.

Any thoughts? I still plan on wrapping with heat tape, but as someone suggested earlier, it would be best if you did not have to depend on the heat tape to prevent a freeze up.

I will start a new thread and post some pics of the work so far, and then some more when the GH arrives and I start building. Thanks to everyone for there help here.

Nautical99

Nautical99, I knew you were holding out on us!

Don't read too much into the pics. I was just posting some pics of our landscaping at my shop. I pick out what is to be planted, but the actual "work" is done by an outside landscaper. I do have many plants here in my yard in AR. that I have planted and tend to. The GH is something I have wanted to do for many years, and just now am finding the time to do it. I really am an amatuer at growing, so will be looking for all kinds of advice later on, I am sure.

Nautical99

DD mentioned something in passing---water temp coming into the greenhouse---that deserves some thought. I found out the hard way that plants can be shocked by cold water delivered straight to their roots. I'm cheap, so my solution was ( 2) 5 gallon plastic gas containers that I keep filled up all the time. If you remember to keep them filled every night, by morning they will have reached ambient GH temp., and be ready to use that day. I haven't installed a hot water heater yet, and quit shocking my hyper-sensitive tropicals. You just have to train yourself to remember to fill them EVERY night so they'll be available for those "watering emergencies" that will occur. You'll see what I mean as you get into it!

Stono, I have SO much to learn! I have the foundation built, have the water run, a data cable, and a 60 amp electric panel all in. But now am totally confused about how to lay out the GH itself. I have read so much about beds, in the ground, on the ground, raised beds, shelves, etc. Of course I have not even decided what I want to grow yet. I know some tropicals, and bedding plants and a few veggies and easy flowers to start.

I can understand the cold water issues. Can anyone advise as to what constitutes cold? 50 degrees? or less? Here in Conway, you have to run the water a long long time to get a "cold" drink of water. Storing water overnight will be good for spot watering, but as I am not always going to be here I was hoping to automate with spinklers and misters. I wondered if you could just coil lots of plastic water tubing on the north wall of the greenhouse and let it soak up the GH temp, then when you water it would always be the same temp. Maybe it will take more water than 100' of tubing holds. Will have to do some math on that. I guess first I have to find out how much water I will use in a day.
I thought a small water heater, set real low or use a mixing valve would solve that problem. What temp. should the water be?

Nautical99

Nautical, try to keep at least part of the GH layout flexible. Your interests and needs may change and it is fairly likely you will want to rearrange things at some point.

The issue of water temp is worth discussing. TL says it is just a problem with seedlings not a problem with established plantings; Eggs hasn't noticed a problem. But there are some plants (gardenias and papayas come immediately to mind) that have a reputation for disliking cold water. Whether this is myth or reality, I can't say, but I do the same kind of thing Stono does...I store the water from the RO unit in a deep well tank where it has 12-24 hours to come up to greenhouse ambient temperature before I use it. That works for me.

SB

SB,

I hope to post a few pics of my foundation today, as I have already seen some problems with it. I have some issues that make if very difficult to work low to the ground, (besides just getting old) so had planned on building raised beds, 24 to 30 inches off the ground. I was going to build beds out of cedar supported by 2x4 treated lumber. If I did that, how deep does the dirt have to be? I thought I could use 1x8 lumber, but don't know if 8" is deep enough. I also thought that I could grow in containers, or pots, right on top of the bed.
I wanted to have raised bed basically on the south, east, and most of the north sides. Then have a 3' wide bench in the middle, but having it extend only about 6' from the east wall. Double door is on the west end. I need a place to over winter some palms, and a couple of hibiscus trees that we keep in the garage now. I realize now that the beds will create shadows and block the light to anything on the floor of the GH. I had left a 20" perimeter all the way around the outside walls but I don't think there will be any sun there. The sidewalls will be 7'6" and the peak 10'6". I had thought about leaving the NE corner with no bench and growing some type of tropical, like a tall banana tree in that corner, or maybe some vine tomatoes. Could I use the areas under the benches for germinating seeds in flats? Just use fluorescent lights until they sprout? I know I will need storage space, so planned on using some of the area under benches for that. I realize it can all be changed, but I would like to at least start out with a plan that is workable for a season or two, until I learn more about running a GH.

RO? Is that a water filter of some kind? Do I need to filter the water before it goes into the water heater? or after? I have been doing a lot of reading, trying to get up to speed. I see a lot of pages dedicated to plant disease, and the need to sterilize pots, flats etc. With that in mind, should I put a small sink in the GH? I could just run a drain out through the east wall and it would drain into the ground there.

Nautical

Concerning the water temps-I have never tried to get a reading of the water temps in the winter. I can only say that I am on a well, or large storage tanks (outside) and that in the dead of winter-that water is very cold! In the late spring and summer it is not and most of my germination is done with, so I don't worry about the temps as much.

With the warm water-it is mostly when I am in the process of germination and seeds haven't germinated yet is when I am careful to use warm water. Once I am watering seedlings, it is not as much a concern.

I think that tropicals like warm water better-but they don't get it with me in the grhouses because there are too many of them to water. I haven't killed any by using cold water yet....but if I had less of them and had the choice than I would use warm-but only because I think that maybe, using cold slows down growth some-not sure of that though-have not done any comparisons.

Nautical - there certainly are a lot of things to consider... You probably won't have everything solved before Fall rears it's head.

You can use the under-bench areas for many things including germinating/propagating using fluorescent lights/propagating flats with heating cables, etc. If the benches are not solid, some light will find its way down there and certain plants may be happy with cooler temps and deep shade. You can also use that area for storing tropicals like EEs in "hibernation."

RO (reverse osmosis) is a system of basically pumping water with high pressure through membranes with openings so small that things like molecules of calcium and magnesium can't pass through, thus softening the water. You can search through this Forum as there have been many threads concerning RO treatment. Basically you might need RO if your water is really hard, or it contains "bad" things like iron, manganese, sulfur, volatile organics, etc. Many small RO systems are available - search eBay for "reverse osmosis" and you'll see hundreds of items.

I don't have a sink and don't think I need one. If I'm running water I just let it flow out on the ground (raising the humidity just a bit). Do think about what type of material you will put on the floor, i.e. chat, pea gravel, river gravel, etc. There are several threads on that topic in the Greenhouse Forum too.

Good point DD-I don't have a sink either-and don't ever wish that I had one. But I do have a potting table in each grhouse and use it everyday, and when I am done with all the transplanting and filling of pots on it, I cover it with plants.