test kits, water quality etc

being new to this hobby I'm naturally curious as to real life experience which is why I ask questions here. So far there have been few answers. Perhaps Water Gardens is not the right place to talk about koi ponds but let me try again.

I'm reading all over the net about koi and their required environment. The instructions range all over the map. What I'm trying to find out is what to do about what the test kits tell you. Everybody sells test kits and advises to check this and that (even two or three times a day) but no one tells you what the readings should be and if not, what to do about fixing it. How hard should the water be? What should the pH level be etc etc. What good is a test kit if you have no idea what the ideal is to shoot for. Nobody seems to tell you that.

Some of my small koi died after being introduced into a new pond. The gold fish seem to be fine. So I test the water and try to read the color matches. No nitrates, no ammonia but very hard water with a very high pH level. I take a bottle of water to a fish store assuming they have more sophisticated measuring tools but they pull out the same little dip sticks I have and get the same readings. Supposedly the water is fine but they still recommend I wait two or three weeks before introducing more fish. What will change during this period? Will the water get softer or the pH level go down? How?

If you read the Tetra Pond instructions having a pond is a full time job with continuous water changes and filter cleanings. Yet I know people who have large koi in a rather small pond who really only take branch debrit out of the pond and feed the fish. They seem quite happy with nothing but a bio filter and a small water fall. They have a rubber liner while I have painted and sealed concrete. I used well water while they have city water. I sort of tried to copy that environment in a larger scope. My fish won't even come up to the surface to eat. Don't they get hungry?

Anyway, can anybody clue me in as to what I should be doing differently or what is happening here?

Fred

and just as soon as I said I can't find anything helpful on the net, I do:

on pH from http://www.vcnet.com/koi_net/ph.html
We are familiar enough with the extremes of acids and bases to know it is not a good idea to place a bare hand in either battery acid or caustic lye, and we can assume that neither would be a good place to put our fish. A pH measurement will help us determine if our water is a proper place to put the fish. For our Koi ponds, the pH should normally be between 7.0 and 8.5, but it is probably acceptable to be anywhere between 6.0 and 9.0. Although most of the fish could tolerate a pH as low as 5.0, bio-converter bacteria are subject to damage. Long term conditions above 9.0, can cause kidney damage to the Koi.

Test kits are available that use drops, pills, or powders with a color chart to show various ranges of pH. A wide range pH test kit (Range 5.0 - 10.0) is considered as a requirement for all ponds. If higher accuracy is desired, one or more limited range test kits are nice to have for the ranges most often encountered. Battery operated, digital electronic pH meters are available that measure from 1-14 in 0.1 increments. Most of the inexpensive versions of these ($100 or less) provide readings that are both temperature and battery condition dependent. All require periodic calibration and the less expensive ones usually require calibration prior to each use. Since doing this calibration is more involved than making a chemical reading of the pH, an electronic pH meter is not considered appropriate for most pond keepers. Those who have difficulty distinguishing the small color differences of the chemical test color charts find them wonderful.

And this:

Alkalinity is related to the amount of dissolved Calcium, Magnesium, and other compounds in the water and as such, alkalinity tends to be higher in "harder" water. Lime leaching out of concrete ponds is a primary source of alkalinity but it is also slowly increased by evaporation which concentrates the source compounds. Alkalinity is naturally decreased over time through bacterial action which produces acidic compounds that combine with and reduce the alkalinity components.

Finally some sense to all this.
Fred

What is the PH of your water?

Your pond looks great by the way. I love all the palms. I have zone envy real bad right now. When's the party? You need to christen it.

Jeri

It might be too late to suggest this but...it I would recommend starting out with just a few inexpensive comets, shubunkins and let the pond find its natural balance before messing with it too much. My first year pond was a constant battle with fish dying and water quality issues. I tested often, the levels seemed to be within normal limits, but my fish kept dying off. As most new ponders do, I worried, fussed and toyed with the water constantly, all to no avail. Last year, I completely redid my pond (added bottom drains, made it larger, added better biofilter, etc.) and I made a vow to myself that I was just going to buy some cheap fish and then let it be. I didn't test my water even ONCE last summer. I simply did partial water changes and that's it! I didn't lose a single fish, and everything in my pond absolutely thrived. Now I'm not saying that people shouldn't test their water. I guess I'm just saying that I now agree with those who say that sometimes a new ponder's biggest mistake is trying too hard. Your pond will take some time to find its balance and you may lose a fish here and there in the process. But just take some time to let it get started - certainly keep on reading and learning about pond maintenance, but don't be too quick to act on everything you read. There's a lot of bad advice out there.

Anyway, just thought I'd share my experience...I still consider myself a new ponder so I'm no expert. But I am basically repeating what I've heard from far more experience ponders over the last year and I have found it to be true as well.

Good luck and ENJOY IT - you have done a beautiful job!

Ah, songs of joy ring loud and clear. I guess I'm just overly anxious to get this thing alive and well. I tried to do everything right except I now find out by reading for hours on the net that I should have used muratic acid several times to fill and empty the pond. Supposedly it neutralizes the lime from any resident concrete. I know there is lots of raw concrete in the caves the fish were supposed to be able to hide in. The recommendations are also for frequent partial water changes. I don't even know how to do that yet. I could let the filters drain but that would probably do more harm then good. I'll just leave things alone for a while and wait.

I do have some comets and gold fish in there along with a few small koi. The koi seem to have a harder time of adjusting. And nobody wants to eat. :-)

My pH is around 8.5 with hard water which is supposed to be OK. It's certainly on the high alkalyne side. I used http://www.skippysstuff.com/biofiltr.htm for most of my advice and used their filter setup. They say to wait 4 to 8 weeks before the pond will start to be balanced. My water is a little green which is supposed to be good as algae is forming.

I threw some anachris into the pond and now it lies there on the bottom held down by a ring of lead. Should I plant these in a little pot of clay?
I also picked up three hardy waterlilies at Wallmart and set them onto the bottom. I'm waiting for a plant delivery from texas water lilies too.

I bought (4) 25 lb bags of kitty litter also at wallmart and put that into large black plastic containers from nursery buys. I covered the holes with plastic material so the roots will stay contained. Just waiting for the plants to pot them. Need another 4 bags.

I have these three subpools which only have about 10-12 inches of water in them. What can I plant there? see pic

PS Jeri, I thought you were away for three weeks? As to a party? I'm not ready yet. I still have some work to do. I do have a group of people coming from all over the country on March 27th which will be a good christening time I guess.

These are my filters or as some folks say, bio-converters. I have some things growing in there already. More to come.

I still need to fill in some gravel behind my waterfall as that all had to be redone. It was full of dirt from the construction. I had to put small plants in as there was no room for bigger rootballs. Pipes and conduits in the ground. The palms are Montgomery and Christmas palms. In the background are queen palms. The 12x20 gazebo is obviously the focal point from where one can enjoy the pond and rushing water. It is especially nice at night with all the lights shimmering up the walls from the water. It looks like they are on fire. Next to the gazebo will be an orchid house mainly for vandas.

the wall behind my filters has drains and a control valve to regulate the volume going to each 150 gal tank. The pump is built into a cave in the wall and will be completely invisibleonce the areca palms grow up a little. There is poducarpus as a little hedge behind the wall along with another Christmas palm. I expect the floating plants to cover the top and even trial down a bit. To the right of the tree I had a hole built into the wall where I have a bird of paradise planted. Another is at the far end of the flow on the other side.

One more shot and I'll leave you alone. This is I will put some pavers in front of the cabbage palm on the very left between the rear queen palm and the little golden rain tree. There will be a bench there to sit and relax and watch the fish. In the morning I'll be putting some mulch down but the pavers will have to wait for a more ambitious day.

Ok, ok, only one more. This shows the whole pond as it sits in a circle surrounded by a gravel driveway. The circle contains a large carambola (star fruit), orange and loquat tree along with various other palms from Cuban Royals to Foxtails. You can see three foxes in the forground. In the pond itself is a round island which looks like an old tree trunk. It contains electriciy and water and will house a large bottle palm. I will have lots of fun filling it with dirt and maneuvering that palm over the stepping stone island. I may need to get a crane or get a smaller tree but those things are big and heavy in any size.

That's it. Good night.

Fred

Gorgeous!!! I love the whole setup. You've done a great job!!!

We leave Sunday.

Jeri

Fred - whoever made that did a beautiful job! So - when IS the party?

Two books I wouldn't be without: The Completely Illustrated Guide To Koi For Your Pond by Dr. Robert Herbert R. Axelrod and The Professional's Book Of Koi by Anmarie Barrie. Dr. Axelrod first bred and introduced butterfly koi, which as you probably know are quite poular here ( I love mine) but are not recognized in Japan. Remember that sometimes fish get sick in even the best managed pond environment. Here in the frozen north temperture changes cause more trouble than anything leaving the fish's immune system vulnerable to diseases and fungus present in every pond. It does take time for the pond to "come in" with a balance of plants, proper bacteria levels and what koi need more of than most fish - oxygen. I've had my ponds for six years ( 20 koi and an assortment of shubunkins and sarrasa comets) and every year I learn something new. Good reference books, the net and DG'rs have saved my butt more than once.

I agree that you may have some problems with the cement leaching into the water and causing water quality concerns. As much as we dislike it, we have to be patient and let the pond mature and develop it own ecosystem. I would suggest getting some inexpensive goldfish for the first few months. They are pretty hardy and can help get some good bacteria going. It is such a beautiful pond that you have built! What an inspiration!

I wrote a response last night but I must have forgotten to send it. I hate having to repeat myself. :-)

Anyway, my fish seem to have adjusted now. They are swimming about and chasing each other. They are eating and one koi is spitting out the little food kernels again and again as if he'snot hungry and just playing with the food. Like kids. Only one koi is sort of just hanging around and that may be a bad sign but everyone else seems to be happy in their new home.

I'll pick up those books asap though. I'm still waiting for plant life to arrive. Don't know what the matter is as Texas Water Lilies says they shipped on Monday. The pond looks bare without plants.

I'll wait a couple more weeks before buying any expensive fish and by then should have some plants in there. What I have in the filters is already growing nicely.

Fred

PS thanks for the kudos. I appreciate it. Party time is delayed until I'm satisfied all is done the way I want it.

Just let me know I'm always up for a good party!!!

PARTY!!! If I wasn't so envious of your fab pond I'd grab a flight to Naples and crash the party! You really did a nice job.

Would you guys actually come to Naples or is this just talk?

Fred

Snapple45,
I ordered the books from Amazon. Not exactly cheap.

I have a friend who has had koi for years in a small pond with bio-filter/waterfall and they are huge. This is in a Motorcoach Resort where the fish are fed via a Sweeney Koi Cafe during the summer months. Somebody looks in on them every few weeks to make sure the feeder is still working but otherwise he has no idea what the chemical composition of the water is and really knows less then I do about koi. He never does anything and his fish are thriving over the years. So I wonder what I need these books for. :-)

Next time I go there I'll take pictures. All these experts talk about water changes and filter cleaning and on and on. He does none of that. So maybe the experts don't know all that much?

Fred

Lucky friend Fred! Sorry about the price of those books. I think you will find them good reading though. It is possible to find equilibrium in a pond with no maintenance I suppose but does he ever have to add water? At the very least dechlorinator would be involved. One thing is certain every pond is unique unto itself. While general principals apply to all what eventually works best for your pond is what's right. You have a real beauty there. If I could leave -3 degree weather and get to Naples with my boss' permission I 'd be swigging an iced tea in a lawn chair in your back yard faster than you can say Jet Blue!

Mary

My friend says he lets the water run slowly when it needs refilling. It's city water. He even lets it overflow for a while. Seems not to bother the fish either. He doesn't dechlorinate and has no chemicals. He does have very good water circulation and 2 bio-filters which he does clean about once a year. His fish are huge though and he really needs a bigger pond (no room for that) or to give me some of his giants (which he hasn't volunteered).

Today I was in the pond on a rather cold day (for Naples) and planted all the stuff I got from Texas Water Lilies. I used kitty litter and need to get some more. 100 pounds went very quickly. Messing with the containers made the water cloudy. I hope it settles overnight. The varigated celery is already growing in the filters. Lots new growth but I also have these tiny little three sided plants floating about in there. I guess that algae? Or what is that green stuff that floats on top of the water (not in the pond). I hope it doesn't flush into the pond and cover the whole thing. Or maybe the fish would eat it in the pond? I have no idea where that stuff comes from.

Very cold night tonight. It may go down to 35 or so. I hope covering many of my plants will help to protect them. They are mostly tropical and sub tropical and don't like cold weather at all.

Fred

Chlorine burns the gills in fish. No getting around it. I have never heard of a municipal water treatment plant that did not use it. Whether you add water slow or fast makes no difference. Ageing the water by letting it sit for 24 hours will allow the chlorine to dissipate. Chloramines used by some municipal water treatment plants are also deadly. You can safely add water without dechlorinating if you add less than 10% of the total pond in gallons at one time, so know your capacity. Adding water slowly is a good thing in that it allows for less of a temperature shock. I think the little green plant you've got there is Lemna minor - Duckweed. It came in on your plants. Koi and goldfish will readily eat it. In some ponds it can get out of control. If you have a skimmer in place the skimmer will take it out. I'll bet you've already got some snails too. They also come in with your plants. The snails won't be a problem. They eat the algae on the underwater surfaces. You also might find yourself with some unexpected gold fish. Goldfish fry are notorius for hitching a ride in the water some plants are shipped in. When they get in your pond you won't notice them at first because they are so small. The koi will also eat the young fry. But the ones who hang out in the plants, unseen by the koi until too large for the koi to eat, will survive and propser. By propser I mean multiply faster than any thing you have ever seen. They can have three hatches a year in our climate where the winters are a time out. In your climate I can only imagine! See what you have gotton your self into? You are gonna love it!

Ah yes, Snapple. I looked up Lemna Minor and saw a picture of my little leaflets. I also found out that it's good food for the fish:

"Because Duckweed is largely made up of metabolically active cells with very little structural fiber, the tissue contains twice the protein, fat, nitrogen, and phosphorus of other vascular plants. Each frond absorbs nutrients through the whole plant and not through a central root system, directly assimilating organic molecules such as simple carbohydrates and various amino acids. With the entire body of the duckweed composed of non-structural, metabolically active tissue, most photosynthesis is devoted to the production of protein and nucleic acids, making them very high in nutrional value. "

I laughed out loud at your last statement. True it is. I bought plants from two sources. One was local here out of a large tub where the plants were growing in clay pots and cost like 10 bucks each. I opened them up and separated them into smaller bunches. That's where the duckweed came from. My other plants came clean as a whistle from Texas Water Lilies wrapped in moist newspapers and washed clean. I got a whole selection of various floating and bog plant along with 6 water lilies. Most of these marginals are in my bio-filters. They seem to perk up instantly and start to grow. It must be good in there for them. I planted the water lilies in kitty litter. I still have one empty pot which I'm saving for a special lily as I find it. I'm using 25 gal planters which I cut down in hight to about 1/2 their hight. Then I put plastic in the bottom to cover the holes and fill with kitty litter. On top I put 1" and larger river rock. I have no idea how large a root system the water lilies will have but I've given them lots of expansion room. Actually I have two in three pots with some single ones also. Reading about planting depth I get conflicting data and have assumed that it really doesn't matter all that much.

The hardy lilies I bought at Wallmart came from China (like everything else in that store) and were planted in some kind of netted material. I could just drop them in the pond and they are sprouting like mad. I guess they've grown about an inch in one week.

Today my fish pretty much stayed out of my sight. Don't know if I messed them up yesterday when I was in the pond and made lots of clay mess in the water. Today all is clear again but the fish were in hiding. Maybe they didn't like the cold weather? It's been in the 40s here the last two nights.

And yes, I do have a skimmer. So far I've not seen any duckweed in the pond. It's all up in the filters.

Fred

Planting methods abound for water lillies. I like kitty litter best myself too. I'm assuming you are using the straight stuff with no deodorizers or other additives which can be toxic to fish. I've used the expensive bagged aquatic planting stuff and found no advantage. How you plant depends on water lilly type, hardiness and your particular pond.

I need to correct what I said about snails. Here in the frozen north pond snails are a minor nuisance at most, an algae eater at best. In your climate they could become a major nuisance. You have no really cold weather to halt reproduction, hence you could get really, really large numbers. Be cautious about snails.

Fish activity is directly dependant on water temperature. At 40 degrees water temp they don't move much at all. Do you have a pond thermometer? Since you don't feed fish at all when the water temp is below 50 they are a must up here. Koi don't mind cloudy water at all. Pond owners hate cloudy water. We like to see our koi. In Japan where they supposedly are the absolute masters in koi breeding, koi are raised in clay lined ponds with very cloudy water. The minerals in the clay provide good supplementation for koi growth and development. Here, pond owners with plastic or rubber lined ponds can buy some stuff called "Koi Clay" and add it to the pond. I use it. I can't honestly say that it makes any noticeable difference, but my koi are colorful, healthy and seem to withstand the rigors of winter. The clay settles out to the bottom in a very short time. Koi ingest it as they root around the bottom.

When your koi get big you will have another issue with your potted plants. Koi EAT them. I have seen my koi turn over a pot, knock the lilly out of the pot, and tow it around the pond! I have some 20 inchers. What I do now is drill small holes in the top of the rim and wire tie green plastic fencing over the top of the pot. The plastic fencing has 1 inch holes which allow the plant stems to grow right through. The koi can't rummage through the plant roots and totally uproot them. My pots are the biggest I can find to withstand the battering they take. I didn't have any problems until the koi got to be around 12-14 inches. Then hardly any plant stood a chance without protection. Be prepared. Koi absolutely love to root in a lotus tub. There is no way you can put an unpotected lotus tub in a pond with big koi. My favorite small water lilly (Perrys Dwarf Red) came dried in a box from Home Depot by the way. I have never ordered from Texas Water Lillies. From what I have heard on this forum they are one of the BEST sources. I should follow your lead and give them a try. I am looking for a blue water lilly this year. Happy Ponding!

Mary