Wild celery or Par-cel?

I wanted and got some seeds for Par-cel ~ a celery flavored parsley. The package of seeds is marked Apium graveolens. While reading some herbal books, I find many listings for wild celery also Apium graveolens. Wild celery is reported to be toxic in quantities. My question is this ~ are wild celery and par-cel one and the same? Any thoughts? Any experience? pod

Podster, did you ever find out any information on this? Just curious.

Shoe

No ~ the more I read, the confuseder I get. I intend to plant it but am apprehensive about consuming in quantities. But what constitutes a quantity????

Well, after cruising all over the Internet and looking in a few books I can understand the confusion!

"Wild celery" refers to several different plants (common name). I've seen it used referring to Apium graveolens (like "regular" celery is) but noted that 'wild celery' often refers to the plant that grows from under water and/or in creeks. (wikipedia shows it listed as Vallisneria americana, not A. graveolens).

I also saw it used as a reference comparing angelica with poison hemlock, it that article it stated it resembled hemlock. (I don't think so as poison hemlock grows taller than me! However, perhaps the wispy flat leaves might make someone think it is something more akin to celery or angelica.?)

"Par-cel" looks more like a cross between parsley and celery but I can't find its origin. I noticed Johnny Seeds sells it so maybe an email to them would offer more info on its potential toxicity? They're usually really great with sharing information.

Guess I'll just have to keep my eyes and ears open hoping I can come up with more definite info. Sorry.

Perhaps someone else will come forth with something?

Shoe

I thought Par-Cel was just a new name for the traditional cutting celery that is used in Europe.

Yep, Mermaid, it is a cutting celery. Just haven't figured out its name/origin (as "par-cel"). Supposedly has more of a curled leaf than "standard" cutting celery.

Do you know anything about "wild celery" from your days overseas?

Shoe

Par-cel is probably a US marketing name. The dutch (I believe) name is Zwolsche krul.

oh no not again! since my right hand is in dispose at the moment, i will just have to trace some discussion from threads covering the subject

from this thread http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/486416/ Parcel, as i have not seen in person, i would be inclined to believe it is also same as kintsai/kinchay as mentioned above. it has stems like celery as they mature, but leaves like Italian flat Parsley.

Apium Graveolens variety dulce is commonly known as Celery.

Apium Graveolens variety secalinum commonly known Chinese celery, kintsai or cilantro or Leaf celery.

Apium Graveolens variety rapaceum commonly known as Celeriac, another variety of celery with strong celery flavor, grown for the root. it has celery like leaves grow w/thins stems.

another cilantro variety to tease ur mind http://home.budget.net/~herbseed/Quilquina.htm , http://petterssononline.com/habanero/peppers.php?action=varietiesinspecies&genus=other&species=plants

more later as i find more info. hth

Ahah! I remember that thread, MaVie! Forgot all about kintsai...it sure sounds like "par-cel".

thanks!

Shoe

... and the plot thickens. Yes, it may well be par-cel. The description of the plant and the flavor sound like it. If I am successful, I will post a photo or two. MaVie Rose, I bow to you and thank you!

u're welcome Shoe.

hi Kristi, here is a link for Parcel Apium graveolens var. Secalinum http://www.herbherbert.com/pdf/parcel.pdf u're very welcome... definitely the plot will thicken cuz i anything associated with Coriander/Celery look alike and it's close affinity has been an obsession on my part to research.

i can not comprehend why others bundles them all into Cilantro/Coriander variety/ies. as i once argued with a well known Chef in L.A. over the radio, each of the Apium Graveolens /celery, varieties do have it's distinct flavor and personality all their own. i have pointed out to him, that in all probability, when people began to migrate in all parts of the world, immigrants must have carried seeds with them and tried to cultivate. consideration and influence of the following factor/s: soil, altitude, climate and other unknown factors like flowers of the plant begin to cross pollinate can cause the different variety/to exist in the different parts of the world, therefore acquiring the name/s that do exist these days. the ground and atmospheric location can also influence in change of flavor. as the following link can enlighten us: http://www.foodreference.com/html/celery-history.html ,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A47091-2001Aug22?language=printer

i have yet to unravel the mystery/ies of celery, cilantro and parsley. i hope! as u can see from this link... the co-relations is that they all come from the same family http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Apium+graveolens+dulce

Family: Umbelliferae see all the member of this family http://www.pfaf.org/database/search_name.php?ALLNAMES=Umbelliferae , http://www.arthurleej.com/p-o-m-Mar03.html
Genius: Apium see list of Apium http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Apium+graveolens+dulce

few examples of Celery like leaf and flavor: links i will attached, hopefully will produce image for everyone to see the similarities of the leaf shape. if u have cooked and use these herb as much as i have. i am 200% positive u can taste the difference.

Celery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celery
Pascal Celery http://www.reimerseeds.com/celery_448.aspx
Lovage [Levisticum officinale] http://www.herbherbert.com/pdf/lovage.pdf


Coriander [Coriander sativum] http://www.herbherbert.com/pdf/coriander.pdf
Chinese Celery/Kintsai http://www.kitazawaseed.com/seed_067-152.html

Culantro (Eryngium Foetidum) http://www.caribbeanseeds.com/culantro.htm , http://www.richemporium.com/culantro.html , http://www.worldcrops.org/crops/Culantro.cfm
Perennial Coriander [Eryngium foetidum syn E. antihystericum] http://www.herbherbert.com/pdf/coriander_perennial.pdf

Italian Parsley [Petroselinum crispum var. Neapolitanum] http://www.herbherbert.com/pdf/parsley_italian.pdf

Papalo http://www.gardenmosaics.cornell.edu/pgs/science/english/papalo.htm , http://www.freshcutherbs.com/herbofthemonthpapalo.htm

Quilquina [Porophyllum rudirale] http://petterssononline.com/habanero/peppers.php?action=varietiesinspecies&genus=other&species=plants , http://home.budget.net/~herbseed/Quilquina.htm

Vietnamese Coriander (Polygonum odoratum] http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Poly_odo.html . http://www.mountainvalleygrowers.com/polodoratum.htm , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_Coriander

edited to state: that is the best i can offer to know the difference between Celery like leaf and flavor! whew! this is like working in an office. i spent more than a day or so doing all the research.

ma vie

This message was edited Feb 3, 2007 2:27 AM

I do appreciate all your research and it will take me every bit of a day or more to peruse the links... ( I get easily distracted by links ) I know my palate is not as refined to tell the differences unless they are quite distinct. With reduced salt intake at our home, I was looking at this for the flavor of celery without the sodium content of celery. I became a bit concerned when warnings began popping up for toxic effects of wild celery...
Your comment "the ground and atmospheric location can also influence in change of flavor. " interests me. I have never seen any validation but have always felt that just like plants which perform differently under different soils/conditions, bloom colors, and the taste of plants are affected too. This will be the first link I intend to tour. Thank you so much... Ms. MaVie
Thank you also Shoe for putting out the "MaVie" bait... : )) pod

actually, when in the process of posting, i accidentally hit Sent instead of Preview, when i was not finished posting all the links. i had to say something to justify the edit options.

sorry to get off a tangent on this thread, i had to get it off my chest once and for all. like previously mentioned, i can never comprehend why people would bundle the numerous types/variety of Coriander/Celery like leaf or flavor, into one bundle. each and every variety posted above are like people from different country that planted the seeds their migrant's ancestor/s settled in their particular country. i doubt it very much if u would call an Italian as Chinese, on a similar token, u would not mistake the looks of a Vietnamese to a Mexican cuz it isn't justified by their looks alone for the mistaken identity. it is similar to these herbs from these family of herb.

pls. do not get intimidated with the attached link, it has been a trademark on my part to verify what i speak off, apart from my personal use/taste in planting the seeds and use them in cooking. some seeds not available for my reach, i had to buy the herb itself when i find them for cooking.

as the chef in cooking show state, "i wish there is the aroma incorporated on ur tv, for u the viewing audience to smell", the food they are cooking. but! i can have u have a taste of those herbs mentioned per se.

if u have eaten in numerous restaurants whose chef/cook came originally where those herbs come from, u have an idea what those herbs are! i or those chef/cook from those country would never use Italian Parley in Chinese noodles. people often ask me why when they cook certain things, it taste so much different from their "original" taste. i can not interchange Kintsai in Chinese noodles with Italian Parsley in it's place. the flavor would not be justified. i can not interchange Kulantro with Cilantro on some Thai dishes, cuz the flavor would not be the same. similarly, i can not substitute Vietnamese Coriander on any Mexican or Latin American cooking. to some people who are not adventurous as i am in different nation's dishes, would care less what they use in cooking. sorry i am funny that way. i guess, it was an influence on my part, when i was working with foreign diplomats from my former job in the Philippines from years gone by. wives's of foreign diplomats would take their time to teach me cook dishes from their own country.

i hope i made sense with what i try to explain here. i try my best to the best of my knowledge. these research adventure has been fun. i am finally glad to be able to point out the difference between these herbs.

again i apologize, i did not mean to hijack this thread. my sole intention is to educate and not misled people's conception on herb mentioned. thank you for bearing with me. Next??? i feel great sharing info. i feel relieved, it is like taking the fish bone off my throat when the bone got swallowed accidentally. LOL.

MaVie, I think podster will agree that you have not hijacked the thread, you have enriched it!

MaVie ~ I absolutely agree with garden_mermaid. If I hadn't wanted to know, I would not have asked. The research and information you have offered is invaluable. I may not have use for all of it but would be ignorant not to learn something from it. As I worked today, I haven't be thru the links yet. I will be grateful to you when I read them. I love the many directions threads take and am never offended. Thank you, pod

Thank you, MaVie; this is deeper and richer than I ever knew, and we do differentiate between the varietals we grow!
I was given a packet of kintsai (from Kitzazawa Seeds) this year, and will be trying them for the first time.
I'm looking forward to the experiments in growing and eating!

G_M ... geez, i really feel funny addressing u in such manner. thanks for ur kind worlds.

Yo Kristi... i guess this thread got it's overnight celebrity status. wonder why they got it unstuck? LOL. i know for a fact celery flavor, and its' distant relations to other celery look alikes are one of the well sought herb being questioned on this forum.

i am still in the process of backing up some of the materials on my research on the subject. No, not the above research i've done. there is another close relations to it though. since the Apium genus is so huge, i figured there should be some sample to paint the picture in a clear fashion... which would do justice for others to easily understand the significant differences. to be honest, the reason why it is taking so long is, it is difficult to find samples for the sub-geniuses. i am not one to give up that easy. i know i will find. once i accomplish that i will update all the info for back up.

hi Ruth/RuTemple, i hope it is ok to address u as such. i see u are close and near to both my son's home and G_M. i am a people person, therefore i want to address families and friends i acquried in DG on a personal basis. is it ok?

btw... welcome to DG, i am positively sure that u will enjoy it here. it is an adventurous place, not only to be acquainted with people and but more so with plants. on the same token, when u came across this thread, u never expect to learn this particular herb has such a huge family and co-relations with other known, unknown and soon to be uncovered herbs. what an eye opener don't u think? i.e. the similarities between celery, lovage and angelica ... they all grow in a similar fashion, taste almost close to each other yet, they belong to different families. same thing will applies to cilantro, kintsai and parsley. no wonder people are confuse.

anyway Ladies and Gentlemen, i found yet another accident discovery while helping others. here is a brief history of celery

from this link http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/plantanswers/publications/vegetabletravelers/celery.html

isn't it fun to help, at the same time find some precious information, unknown to us prior to being uncovered?

Mavie ~ I was notified of this change and meant to let you know, my apologies. They are assembling a favorite threads link.

It IS fun and excellent to have a great place like this to share and store the assembled information. The research is invaluable. Thank you... pod

Kristi,

no problem here. i was just curious what happened. last time i was at this forum is the 1st time i saw this thread as a sticky. never been back till earlier today.

as long as i have been a member @ DG, lately... there has been one TOO many changes. i could hardly coop up with them, to the point i no longer recognized anyone nor know what new forum exist or do not exist. most of the names i see of late are ALL new to me. it feels like i have been deported to another country LOL!!! nothing is familiar anymore.

i can remember at the beginning, most of the member knew each other well enough. we address one another on a personal bases. one of the few reason, it has been my personal preference to address people i 'speak' with on a one to one basis.

sheez! it will be like looking for a needle in a hay stack to find a favorite thread. i am in the middle of research, i want to finish this project 1st.

to find, be fair and sort the thread that is most popular or well sought of will be a mundane task! picture this... i have to research from all the threads that has been posted before and recently. sort the threads, locate the most popular thread with revealing info within the thread.

i am not a programmer, and do not have access to all the thread in the Herb Forum. such task is only easy for a programmer to access. i do not have the knowledge or resources of a programmer. i leave that task to whoever can do it. in the meantime, i will stick to the project at hand, finish it and post it eventually.

choosing or picking a 'favorite' thread do involve in fairness in how much information is available not b/c one is particularly involve in the thread. i do not really know how to explain. it does not also involve the # of views or participation of member w/in a thread. to me what counts ... is the value of information available in the thread for other members to better understand the information given to specific question brought up in the thread.

i hope i am not confusing u or anyone , as i am having difficulty trying to express what i want to say.

to whoever want to take the task of finding a good herb subject candidate for favorite thread... i can give u a clue... in the span of time i have been on board .... garlic, lavender, cilantro and parsley are one of the few herbs that has been questioned every now and then. more power to whoever u are. so sorry, i wish i could do the task :(.

That's just it... this isn't about trying to identify the best of the very best threads and add them to the "sticky" as if they'd won a prize... this is a way to organize a list of links to threads that do a good job of addressing topics that come up frequently here. It's also a way to easily find a thread such as this one that has such a lot of good & interesting information. We don't need to come up with a "10 best" list, but we do need to add some more good links to the sticky... so far, this thread is the only one.

If everyone comes up with just a couple of ideas about threads that they found especially useful, that will help build the new "sticky" thread as an excellent resource!

I must admit, I am surprised there haven't been more threads compiled with information about herbs. Herbal planta make me refer to my library more than any other. pod