tips, trick, and chatter on keeping pests out

We've had a lot of discussion about pest treatment, identification, and isolation of plants. All of these assume that you already have the plants (with the pests). So.... I thought it might be good to chat about what else you can do minimize your exposure.

What am I talking about? Mostly about what you buy, how you buy, and how you bring it into the house.

I don't intend for this to be a soap box post, but I can already feel that it's going to be a long-ish one. So apologies in advance for that, and here we go......

Let's face it. We don't grow in a vacuum and we like to get new plants. The more plants we get, the higher the risk of getting new pests and viruses. And the more plants we have, and the smaller/more cramped our growing/propagating space, the higher the risk that a pest outbreak can take out our entire collection.

As we're discussed before, there are pests and such everywhere (like your yard). Sure, it's worse in some climates than others, but they're there. Most growers would agree that it's pest CONTROL, not pest ELIMINATION, that we aim for. So we develop methods for isolation, monitoring and treatment (mild preventatives as well, if we're good)....

But all this treatment gets really annoying/painful/expensive/unhealthy. This is where we should stop for a moment and think about what we buy and how we bring plants in.

[the photo is a cherry blossom that was in bloom in DC about a week ago.]

not to feed paranoia, but... a note about virus first....

We don't talk much about viruses, but it is a real potential problem. Consider, for example, the reason why the Smithsonian research greenhouses is no longer distributing plants. They discovered Impatiens Necrotic Spot Virus (or something similar) and had to destroy much of the collection.

Virus infected plants do not always show symptoms, so there is no way to tell for sure unless plant material is tested.

but back to the bug issue.

When I say "what you buy and how you buy", I'm not talking about whether the source (grower and distributor) are reputable or reliable, or if they spray pesticides a lot etc, although all of these are things you probably want to consider.

What I want to point out is that it's easier to debug seeds and rhizomes than leaves, and a couple of leaves are easier than a plant. (Sorry, AV chimera fans... this is not very helpful for you.)

Obviously, if you want a particular cultivar, you have to get plant some material. But if you want a species, then could you grow it from seed? One of the reasons I keep recommending that people try growing from seed is that seeds are relatively risk free. (And yes, hybridizing is fun, and perpetuating species is good, and growing wierd species is also all good.)

For example, some of the micro mini sinningias are species. S. pusilla, concinna, and sp. Rio das Pedras are species. They grow "true" from seed and bloom in less than 6 months. S. pusilla 'White Sprite' also grows true from seed.

If you want a cultivar, get the plant piece with the least risk. For example, if you are considering getting a Kohleria, do you really need a pot of leaves? Why not just get rhizomes? They are fairly tough to kill, and they sprout and grow quite quickly. Although a cutting might give you flowers faster, a rhizome is one step ahead in maturity anyway.

Selecting what plant piece you get is an easy way to reduce the probability that you'll bring in pests.

But of course, we can’t get away with never bringing in foliage. So what do you do when you bring in new cuttings or new plants? Remember, it's safe to assume you can't see pests and eggs, and that they are airborne. They can hitch a ride on pots, bags, clothing, hair, hands, nails, and air.....

Let's assume that you have a spot for isolating new plants. Is this just a separate shelf or room? That may not be enough. Is it a vented humidity dome? That may also not be enough – there are holes in it, after all. It is a sealed container? Not to sound totally pessimistic, but that may also not be enough – after all, you have to open it to water the plants and exchange the air (even if that is once every 2 months like at my place), and when you open the lid – whoosh – a lot of air movement.

It's still possible to reduce your risk. Pause a moment to think about how you get the plant from your car/porch to the isolation area. Each additional step you build in to your plant-welcoming routine helps a little bit to reduce your risk. Take enough steps and you're significantly closer to pest control.

Consider the following....

If you just visited a greenhouse:

- Could you possibly have brought bugs or eggs with you on your hair or clothes? I first considered this when I was at an orchid greenhouse with epiphytic cacti hanging from above... and yes, there were clumps of mealies on the cacti. I went straight to the shower when I got home.

- Did you touch plants while you were there? Should you be washing your hands and cleaning under your nails? Okay, this sounds anal but you know, we should always wash our hands....


As for plants:

- Are they covered (like in a plastic bag) when you walked into the house? (This would be good practice.)

- Did you carry an uncovered plant through the living room and past the plant shelves before taking it to the bathroom/kitchen/de-bugging bench?

- Do you sterilize your new potting mix? Anyone who has bought a bag of soil only to find it miraculously gave birth to fungus gnats knows that you should never trust those bags..... (Dried compressed mix is fairly safe though ;-)

- Are you cleaning your tools between each plant, pot and soil? Blades should also be sterilized against virus.

- What about your hands? Did you just pick up a new plant, dump the soil, and then pick up a clean pot? Or did you just handle a new plant, and then walk over to mix up a batch of potting mix?

- Do you wear gloves while repotting? Are they disposable or are you using gardening gloves?

- Do you give your new leaves and cuttings a dip in a treatment bath? Wash them down to physically remove anything that will come off?

okay, I'm done for the moment. Please feel free to chat :-)

All excellent points! I've taken to just wanting AV leaves now to reduce risk. Rhizomes vs. plants, yes. Cuttings vs. plants, yes. All kept covered and observed.

Also when going to nurseries, box stores, or mail order ( I think most of you can relate to this), I rarely if ever see Optimaras or Anthoflores plants for sale that don't have blossom thrips at the minimum. I too wash up and change my clothes before going near my plants when I get home. I'm also careful not to touch my hair while shopping.

We do what we can for prevention. I'm in the practice of if anything would look other than 'healthy', out it goes. My collection isn't worth pampering a few newly acquired sickly specimens.

Indescriminate use of pesticides creates lots of problems in horticulture. Resistant/immune pests for one similar to the overuse of antibiotics creating 'super germs' and sickness in humans. Hard to deal with.

Thanks, Ki, for starting this thread. Much more to be said on this topic.

Snowrose

PS: How about those cherry blossoms in January!

I forgot to mention one more - when you water, does the tip of your watering can or water bottle touch the plants at all? Are you inadvertently spreading the love?

Hey, glad to hear I'm not the only one who changes clothes after a plant trip ;)

You're funny, Keyring. : ) I must confess....I have been spreading the love.............I can't seem to water the little ones without touching the soil with my turkey baster. (goes and sits in the corner). : (

OK, how do you remember to do all this??????? I read once of a collector that had a check list on the wall by the plants. Does the remembering to do all those things take away from the fun of growing? I guess I will answer my question. YES and NO. But, if it prevents the heartache of loosing those special plants that you have given so much TLC to over the months, it's worth it. OR is it.

I guess everyone has to practice the preventions with which they are comfortable.

In Grow to Show a very strong suggestion is to keep your collection to the number that you can "take care of". I guess bug prevention falls into the "take care of" slot.

Another question would be "Why are you growing?" The answer would help you decide what preventatives you use.

A bit on viruses: Nothing helps. The plant is a chucker! NO LEAVES, PLEASE. The virus will be passed onto the next generation. I understand that this can also be the case with mites.

Here's another thing to remember. If you use a brush to get rid of dust, do you clean it before going to a new plant?

OH MY!

This message was edited Jan 17, 2007 4:50 PM

Do you dip leaves you get in a trade or buy in some kind of liquid before you plants them?

I usually do. I wash with Murph'ys Oil Soap. What do you do?

This message was edited Jan 17, 2007 5:22 PM

Well, right now I don't do anything but plop them in the cup of dirt......

Hey, from what I see of your pictures on the forum, that works!

I think that is what I was trying to convey by saying we do what is comfortable for us. No one has all the answers! We do what we are "felt" to do from within. That's what makes it enjoyable.

This message was edited Jan 17, 2007 5:20 PM

you're exactly right (I say, randomly to everyone).

It's about balancing precautions and the joy of growing. It's about stopping to think about your routine to see if changing a few things might decrease the risk of bringing in an infestation. It makes no sense to continue habits that could contribute to increasing your pest risk level, when you could just as easily have other habits that decrease your pest risk level. (New acronym. PRL. LOL.)

Yes, there are a lot of points up above, but what does it boil down to? For me, it might be something like this:

- always get the least risky plant part

- get rid of the bug-prone parts as far away from my grow area as possible (if I get a new plant with foliage, this includes removing dead plant material, de-potting if I know I'm going to do that, removing soil or potting medium that might have larvae, eggs, bush snails etc, spraying or dipping in a pesticide)

- deal with one batch of incoming plants at a time (in other words, the ones from the same source, or better yet, one plant at a time) and replace/clean/disinfect the bench/counter/table/tools after each one

and

- always get the least risky plant part.


Re: virus, yes, there's no way to save it or cure it. But, some of the same precautions can help prevent the virus from spreading through your collection. Don't share cutting tools or water. Keep your fungus gnats in check (they can carry virus).

Re: dipping leaves. Yes, I do. Everyone who does it probably has their own cocktail. I don't do AV leaves much so I'm not sure what works best for them. At a minimum, a contact-kill pesticide is usually a good idea.

For orchids, my dip mix (possibly in multiple separate dips) would include some or all of the following: bactericide (hydrogen peroxide or Physan20), pesticide (Malathion, or a milder thing like OrangePlus solution (my mildest soap-type pesticide)), Superthrive (or some other sugar and B vitamin type mix).

Keeping the collection down to a manageable size is really good practice, but it's one rule I flaunt all the time...

Yey, Keyring!!!! I think we all flaunt one or two.

This is a great thread!

Oh good, maybe you can answer the Physan question. What is it? Is it a pesticide? I have been thinking about buying it to use as I repot, someone else suggested it.

Physan is primarily a bactericide and algaecide. It is not a pesticide. It has some level of toxicity to plants, altho from discussions here it seems that AVs are not affected. It claims to do a lot of other things and yet be relatively harmless, but it is still a chemical so I wouldn't call it harmless. Seems to me that hydrogen peroxide is a fairly good bactericide, and much safer to use.

Thanks, good info to know. : ) Pam

Good thread!

You're right, it's about minimizing risks as much as possible while finding a balance that allows you to enjoy your plants.

I garden outdoors as well as growing indoor plants, and I have a lot of plants that come inside for the winter... Shelves for isolating newly acquired AVs are downstairs in the morning room (filled with many kinds of plants), while leaf pots and older plants are on the upstairs plant stand, in a room of their own. But I do not sterilize myself from head to toe when moving between rooms, although I do wash hands/nails... and I will bring a pretty bloomer from the upstairs room to show off on the kitchen island (I don't mingle the upstairs plants with the downstairs ones, but the kitchen and the morning room are adjacent spaces, so they're only separated by the length of the room).

I try to be careful, but I'm not willing or able to grow AVs in a sterile, hermatically sealed environment... and I figure most people who grow for fun have similar cultural practices. I also figure I'm more likely to bring a pest home from a box store than to get hitch-hikers in a trade box, because the people I trade with pay more attention to their plants. I also hope that people I've traded with will let me know if they subsequently discover a problem in their collection... I thought posting to tell people to check their plants and keep them isolated a bit longer until I'm able to check my collection was the responsible thing to do when Maureen's plants were diagnosed with mites (weeks after I sent them, and she didn't think the mites came with the plants, but I just wanted to be cautious), but I realize I've risked creating a panic where people won't want to trade with me regardless of the outcome. But I made the choice to err on the side of caution rather than popularity. :-)

There are so many ways that pests can find your plants, and that's part of the reason why nursery people talk about pest management or control rather than pest elimination... now, if I find a nasty like a cyclamen mite on my AVs I'm going to do everything possible, and I'm sure I can eliminate it... but scale is just a fact of life for my potted citrus trees, for example -- it pretty much goes away when they're outside in the summer, but it comes back by midwinter no matter how much I spray and treat, so the trees just have to hang on until the weather warms up again. And since we like to eat the lemons and the limes, I can't put a systemic product in the soil the way I do with my spider plants.

Speaking of systemic products... Does anybody routinely use one of those granular pesticides in their potting mix for AVs? I have some Bionide stuff that's effective against scale, spider mites, and other "sucking" pests, would likely be effective against cyclamen mites also... but I don't think I've heard of anybody using it with all of their plants as a matter of course... Would that be a good idea, or does that just have its own set of drawbacks (apart from making the plant leaves toxic, which could be an issue if you have pets or kids likely to chew on your plants)??

Very informative thread, I have learned alot. Critter brings up another point...pets. Our pets travel from room to room and go from outside to inside. My cats I am sure are spreading things with their tails...they always weave around my plants..gently, mind you, but still, the threat is there.
Any preventative measures for this problem?.....I can wash my hands and nails after handling my plants, but I am pretty sure the cats would disapprove....
Please don't think I am being facetious here..for those of us with limited space, and cannot keep a separate room for plants, they have to live in our living area, this is a valid problem.
LA

We do "wash" our cat every couple of weeks by wiping him down with (unscented!) baby wipes, but I don't think this would do much to limit the sort of casual transfer you're talking about. Putting new plants on an isolation shelf that the cats can't reach might be something to consider, if it's possible. In another thread, Allison mentioned the prevention meds that her dog takes, but that wouldn't affect plant pests that might simply be hitching a ride.

It's amazing to me how long a plant can harbor bugs before they become evident, essentially appearing out of "nowhere." I brought several banana pups inside this fall, potted them up, and put them -- all by themselves, looking entirely healthy, clean, and pest free -- into a corner of the dining room. Just this morning, I noticed that one of the older leaves was suddenly yellowing... on inspection, I found spider mites all over it! I've never seen spider mites on a banana before, and I didn't see any of them all summer long in the "tropicals" bed by the deck where the bananas were growing... yet, here they are! This evening, all the bananas got a spray of Neem and Safer Insecticidal Soap (with pyrethrums)... and I sprayed a few of the plants in the other room that have been succeptable to spider mites in the past, just for good measure.

I think perhaps, no matter how careful you are, eventually pests will find your plants... especially if you garden outdoors also. If you're lucky, it will be something fairly easy to control. The same is true of outside gardens -- plants attract pests. However, you have beneficial insects and the good effects of sun and rain on your side for the outdoor plants, so keeping plants healthy inside can be more of a challenge.

WOW! A lot to think about! Scary! I have been gardening for almost 40 years with both indoor and outdoor plants, and NEVER did any of that de-contamination stuff! I guess I better think twice and three times from now on, huh? I've not had any type of plant viruses or bug problems. Every once in awhile one of my Hoya's in my screened enclosure gets aphids, but I just spray it with insecticidal soap and that takes care of it! I've had mealies on a plant once or twice over the years and just do the q-tip with rubbing alcohol thing to get rid of them. Man, Now I am going to be worried about bringing home "cooties" to my plants when shopping, or trading! I'm ready to set up a plant "hospital" room in the house. I've never quarantined or isolated any new plants, but after reading this thread, will seriously begin that process! Oh, how heartbreaking it would be to lose them all from one little mistake of bringing in pests!

Thanks Key for some very good advice!

Lin

"We do "wash" our cat every couple of weeks"
rofl.

My main reason for starting this thread was to make the point that being careful about what you bring in is your first line of defense.

It's difficult to discuss pest control generally when we live in different climates and grow on different scales. Obviously, if you live in a place where it's not unusual to have a hedge infested with mealies, then mealie control is going to be difficult. If you want to move plants in and out of the home and not use the "big gun" chemicals, then of course you're more prone to all kinds of pests.

Another flip side consideration is that if you don't use insecticides and you're dealing only with native pests, then the chances are fairly good that there are natural predators that keep things in balance. (Sort of. Maybe... Is it obvious that I don't do much yard gardening?)

But if you have an indoor grow area that you want to keep as pest-free as possible and don't want to use a lot of chemicals, then think not only about killing the pests but also about never letting them in (or at least reducing the influx as much as possible without stressing out totally).


[begin straighttalk]

I think some straight talk is necessary so I'm going to say it without glossing things over. Two points in this section..... And this is NOT directed at anyone, either on the forum or a vendor or anyone else. Neither am I saying that we should all stop trading, or buying plants, or - most importantly - enjoying growing them.

Point one. Sure, the box stores may be a big source of pests. (I don't know because my local store have no plants of interest....) But reputable vendors are also a source. Well-meaning traders are also a source. The reason may be that "keeping them under control" means different things to different people. I have, after all, seen a commercial greenhouse where one thought that meant clusters of mealies are fine so long as the plants are still growing. Another greenhouse, while being adamant that you can't eliminate pests, didn't have one pest I could spot. (Okay, I say a few fungus gnats....) Another reason is that pests aren't visible. Eggs can hang around for ever. Yet another is that the person may not have diagnosed the problem correctly.

Point two. Mites are really really really difficult to deal with, especially the ones that don't make webs, are not a bright orange, or are otherwise pretty much invisible. Some people (eg folks who live where mealies are all over the yard) may disagree, but mealies and scales are child's play in comparison.

Part of the problem is that the infestation isn't visible until you really really have a problem. Several years may pass after the first ones walk into your home before you actually notice a problem.

Another big part of the problem is that insecticides generally do not work on mites - mites are arachnids and so a roach killer is more likely to kill mites. (I said "more likely" not "will".... just to be clear.) The insecticides may be killing off the natural predators of the mites. Not all miticides actually kill off a population (some just suppress it). Not all miticides kill the eggs. Mites develop immunity to miticides. Systemic doesn't always mean sytemic. And you can pretty much bet that whatever great miticide you have, there are some mites that won't die. Ever look at miticides? (See, e.g., http://rosemania.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page9.html) Wonder why they're so expensive? Mites are a tough problem to crack.

By the time you have an outbreak across a big collection, it's a pretty daunting task to get things under control. No wonder some people recommend tossing the collection and starting over.

Final note on mites. You may have seen this study already - note that this is a link to a PDF document. http://www.aenews.wsu.edu/Jan02AENews/DavidJames/DavidJamesPDF.pdf The study says that imidacloprid (the active ingredient in Marathon, Merit, and Bayer Advanced Tree and Shrub/Rose and Flower products increased the egg production of two spotted mites by 20-50%. As far as I know, two spotted spider mites are not a big AV pest.... But also, as far as I know, no one has done a study on cyclamen mites and imidacloprid....

[end straighttalk]

Okay... I edited this four times before posting, and I'm sure it still could use some editing and sweetening, but I'm just going to click....

And I promise I'm ready to step off the soap box..... But not before I say that it comes down to enjoying growing the plants (or selling them, if that's what you do). If a major pest problem is going to ruin things for you, then put in place as many preventative measures as you can. "Monitoring" what comes in can drastically reduce the chances that you'll find an outbreak on your hands.

Key .... I for one am so grateful to you for posting all this information. I am a "Newbie" to DG, as well as to Plant Trading and it is something to really think seriously about, whether buying from a local nursery, box store, grocery store or trading on-line, or even with my backyard neighbor, which I do a lot! I have just never thought about pests, or viruses and the possiblilty of transferring them from one plant to others!

In my opinion, you can get on the soap box anytime .... we all need teaching and reminding sometimes!

From now on, I plan on isolating any "new" plant that comes into my household! It sure would be easier to treat one plant than having a problem spread to many! I don't like using chemicals if I don't have to and rather prefer "natural" remedies for pests. I do use insecticidal soap at times but even don't like doing that. Last summer I released thousands of lady beetles in my yard and a few in my screened enclosure.


Well, again .... thank you for this important discussion. You brought up MANY very good points and I think everyone should heed the advise!

Lin

Ki

Loved getting into your mind. Thanks for the added points.