Hello!
I recently asked on the brug forum about controlling spider mites on my brug cuttings. One member responded that BTS will cause or increase spider mite breakouts and to not use it. I am not using it yet on any plants but was planning to this spring on my hoyas that have bug issues. Now I am not sure whether I should. I do have some hoyas with spider mite issues, mainly the softer leaved ones and some dischidias. Has anyone else heard about this or have any thoughts?
Here is the other thread: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/683142/
Thanks, Kim
concern regarding spider mites and BTS
Kim, I think don't think that BATS could cause a spider mite outbreak. Most insects that are killed by BATS are sucking insects, like aphids. Eating those insects that have fed of of a BATS treated plant could kill off a few predator insects that also eat mites, so outdoor plants could have a slightly higher risk of heavy spider-mite infestations, but cuttings in a greenhouse probably don't have many beneficial predators on them in the first place.
Edited to say:
I just looked up imidacloprid (BATS) and spider mites on the web, as someone suggested on that other post, and looks like I was wrong! I found this study, which I hadn't seen before, which indicates that the use of imidacloprid stimulates egg production in TSSM (two spotted spider mite) and CAN lead to heavier infestations.
www.aenews.wsu.edu/Jan02AENews/DavidJames/DavidJamesPDF.pdf
So this may become a problem with Hoyas that are prone to spider mites. I guess we'll have to take our pick: mealies or mites! Mites are worse, in my book. I think I'll skip the BATS on mite prone plants (like H. bella) for the time being.
This message was edited Jan 9, 2007 11:30 PM
Thanks Kim and Mark!!! This is an excellent discussion. I am going to copy this and save it.
Much thanks to both of you for the information.
Ann
couldn't you use the BTS to kill the mealies and then hit the spidermites with something else?
I have experienced Spider Mites since using BATS...and so have some nursery folk friends. We get the Carmine Spider Mites and another...but it is the Carmine that are most prevalent. I have a spray bottle armed and at the ready with Avid and Ovation: I take the tray outside, spray all the plants and repeat it in 7 days. I have also had good luck with an organic spray that comes as a NEEM product which I often alternate with (forget the name...it comes in a blue green spray bottle).
I also learned that if you are anywhere around brugmansias or other mite prone plants...you can carry the mites to your plants on your clothing.... luckily my gh is downwind from the rest of the gardens!!! I usually find Mites on the soft leafed hoyas like sp. Tanna, schneei, cv. Iris Marie.... if caught in time they don't go off to other neighbours!
Carol
I've been thinking of getting some neem oil for these buggers, but I heard the good stuff you have to buy online and I haven't been able to bring myself to do that yet. Spending has been tight....such is the life of a grad student. But I may need to go ahead and do so. I think they definitely hitched in on the brug cuttings I got. Since it only hits certain ones, I think I will group those together so I can keep a better eye on them. Another one that has always had mite issues is bella, only got a few cuttings going right now and even they have a few mites. Sigh....
Kim
I have never had any spider mites, what is the first sign of them? Geeze, I wish they had one product that would work on everything. To many darn chemicals.
Yep, Tami, I agree. Bats is the closest thing yet, and I hear they are working on adding a miticide to it, so that would really be awesome.
Spider mites are kind of hard to spot quickly, often you don't notice them for a while, and only find them when you examine the plant closely to see why it hasn't grown for 3 months. If you look closely at the underside of the leaves, mites show up as tiny spiderwebs along the midrib and specks of red, grey, black, or white stuck on the leaf. If there are live mites and you tap the leaf over a white sheet of paper, you can see the mites moving around slowly (a magnifying glass helps).
You certainly can treat the plants with BATS and then watch for spider-mites, thats what I used to do on all of my Hoyas, but considering this new information, I think not treating H. bella (and a few others) might be a good idea, as it is VERY prone to spider mites, and the BATS apparently will make the population explode rather quickly. On most Hoyas mites don't seem to thrive, so maybe not as big a problem, even with BATS.
Maybe it would be helpful to compile a list of mite-prone hoyas so that we all know which ones not to use the BTS on? I know for sure I see them on bella, cv. iris marie, and cummingiana, as well on my dischidias oiantha, geri, and 'near burma'.
Kim
Another way to spot them is the damage they cause. The thinner leaves get sort of a 'stippling' affect...where the mites suck out the juice!!! Then you will see the webs... I just wish they made the really good chemicals in small doses....I have enough ovicide and Avid to last 3 lifetimes but it was the smallest available...over $250!!!
Uh oh, I haven't seen any webs or anything but, some of my leaves if you look at the back side through the sunlight comming through the window, have like dents in the leaves, I thought maybe it was pings from the little hail storms this last summer, it is very noticeable on H. australis, and just noticed the same thing on H. naumanii. Is this spider mite? I better do the paper thing. Ewwww, I loath bugs... O.K. on closer inspection there are no red, gray or black spots, no webs, I placed a paper underneath and flicked the leaf and nothing fell to the paper. Hmmm, the plants are lacking something... I'll have to see if I can get a picture of the leafs, it's pretty weird..
Tami, hail will make little burn marks on Hoya leaves, and the tissue is thinner (and dead!) there.
Some of my smoother leafed hoyas do get little pockmarks on them when the micros are unbalanced. Since using the MSU Fertilizer, I have not had anything like it happen...
There is some misleading advice regarding Spider Mites and BTS on another forum, and it would be negligent of any responsible person not to point them out. The increase in Spider Mites after a thorough drenching with BTS has been found by EVERY NURSERYMAN I HAVE TALKED TO ABOUT IT HERE. The nurseries usually use Marathon or one of the other commercial forms of Imidocloprid...but it is the SAME product.
This does NOT mean that if you use BTS your plants are going to be destroyed by mites... It means that there 'may be' more appearing. Our weather here is extremely humid - and with 150" of rain, per year, I still find mites on my Brugs that are planted out in the elements...the wind blows, too, and the leaves are flipped around so all parts of the plant get moisture. Broad Mites tend to want to nibble on the tender new growth...which is NOT protected by anything. In my greenhouse, I regularly spray a fungicide (ALL over the plant) during the cooler wetter times of the year when fungi and algae love to grow) and in the hot months I wet down all of the plants 1 -2 times per day with a good spray or a mist. I have still found Carmine Spider Mites on some of the more tender plants.
This is not because I am a bad person, nor because certain people dislike me...this is because it IS what it IS.
There is NOT anything set in stone about insects anywhere. Science is constantly evolving and new products create new problems which call for new solutions.
This whole BATS and mites thing makes me wonder, though. Could imid.
cause leaves to be somehow weaker, thereby more susceptible to mites? Or could it make the leaves tastier for them?
The big problem for me is that miticides tend to be more hazardous than mealie-killers. As I grow in the home, this is a big issue. Even neem is not that safe as the spreaders and stickers are skin and throat irritants.
Add to that, the tendency of mites to develop immunity to miticides..
In other words, I may be better off not using imid. And battling the mealira some other way - as much as I like the toxicity level of imid. and it's systemic action.
I think that we could be losing perspective here...me as much as anyone. People I have talked to have large nurseries...stocked with all kinds of plants!!! My GH has thousands of plants - of one kind. I seldom have mites and when I do, they are generally on one or two plants!... Brugs have tons of mites!!!! I think it is true that in principle BTS may harm predators of spider mites (whatever they are) but I don't think it is going to cause infestations of biblical proportions. Mites can happen anytime and anyplace...whether you use BTS or not. I prefer the safeguards BTS gives me over the worry of mites.
Carol
Very possible. Fact is, I'm having an awful time with mites on a chunk of the orchids, and I have difficulty keeping them in check. It is skewing my perspective a bit.
Carol's point is really good here (as is Keyring and everyone else who has entered this excellent discussion).
The one thing we do need to remember is that all the different bugs will attack our plants differently due to the conditions our plants are living in at the time. For example, I am a little worried right now that because it is so unusually cold here in the pacific northwest, and my heat has been on nearly 24/7 for the past few days, that I might actually see an increase in infestations shortly. Why? Because the we have unusually low humidity outside here (coupled with the unusual freezing temperatures), and at the same time I have central air heat which further reduces the level of humidity in my house. This means that not only is it warm, but now there is very low humidity in my house, and because I have the heat on more, the plants are drying out quicker, but I am not keeping up like I should with the watering, nor am I keeping up with my misting regimen. Thus, I can expect to see an increase in bad critters on my plants for the next few weeks (more than likely). Since some of my plants have been drenched with the Bayer solution recently, those plants will more likely see mites, rather than mealies - since I used it to kill mealies and scale.
Like antibiotics in humans, the over-use of products will impact the evolution of those bugs and they will soon become "resistant"/immune to them. In other words, use the chemicals judiciously. If I find the beginnings of an infestation, for example, of mites on a hoya, I spray straight alcohol on all of the hoyas in its vicinity. Then, I isolate the plant and run it under warm water every day/every other day for a couple of weeks. This washes the mites and their babies off (as well as provides humidity for the plant). Obviously, if there is a major infestation it is physically impossible to do this, but for one or two plants it saves money and saves using chemicals that critters are adapting to at quicker and quicker rates. Someone like Carol, however, cannot do this, and has to rely on the efficiencies provided by the use of chemicals. However, as she has noted, she tries to keep the levels of humidity and air circulation high so that she can reduce her own reliance on these chemicals.
Hopefully this added to the discussion without straying off the topic too much :-)
If anyone is interested, go to the link in the second post from the top and you can read exactly why imidacloprid can encourage a mite problem. The chemical itself is usually not deadly to mites (remember, it is NOT a miticide, and they are not listed on the label), and triggers a weird thing called "hormoligosis" which means the mites egg production is increased by 20-50%. So technically imidacloprid doesn't "cause" a mite infestation, having mites on your plant causes a mite infestation, imidacloprid is just very likely to make it worse than it would be otherwise.
Did I say- mites are a real pain in the A$$.
This message was edited Jan 12, 2007 5:21 PM
ah, thank you for pointing out that link again. So many threads, so many links.....
My mite problem exploded during the hot humid summer, so I was really really annoyed. This might explain it.
I previously used imid. only on gesneriads, and those are not prone to the two-spotted mite, so I would never have noticed.
Mealies are much easier for me to control than spider mites, and imid. does nothing for the types of scale I've had, so I'm probably going to ditch the BATS.
Keyring, what else have you used for mites? I find that neem works well- I spray the plants outside and let them dry before bringing them in. There is pure neem oil, as well as the hydrophobic extract kinds, that wouldn't have any stickers or preaders. It is a little harder to work with, as it can thicken up in cool weather, and doesn't emulsify as easily, but it does work. I feel your mite-related pain!
I refuse to use the miticides, so I'm basically stuck with neem. My preference is to start with 100% neem, but I add a surfectant. I think Coco Wet is the one I'm using right now - very sticky stuff. But the problem is, I can't take them outside in the winter and I live in very cramped quarters so spraying indoors is a problem.... so I can rarely keep the spraying routine going.
Someone recommended trying No Pest Strips (formerly there was the same or similar thing marketed under the name Vapona) - bag the plant with a strip for a few hours, and tada! Well, we'll see. Some plants are very sensitive to it.... But it's supposed to kill spiders and such, and therefore work on mites. I'm going to try it on a couple of plants this weekend - they are so infested, these two have no hope unless I do something asap.
Yeah, the no space for spraying thing is a drag- I used to live in a 5th floor walkup.
There's also a product from Dyna-gro called Pro-tekt (or something equally illiterate) that has silicon in it. The plants assimilate the silicon into their cells which apparently makes the cell walls stronger and thus harder for insects to penetrate. I'd guess it works for all sucking insects. I've seen plants treated with it, and they have a VERY shiny appearance, a bit like really slick plastic. I don't know if orchids would look the same. I've heard it works pretty well.
Anyone tried it?
Tried it but didn't notice an increased resistance to pests. They seem to deal with enviro stress a bit better though - but it's hard to really tell.
This message was edited Jan 15, 2007 12:39 PM
I have tried flea collars, no pest strips etc. in a garbage bag with plants...and while that may have worked 40 years ago (as one grower recommends) it does not work now.
Also, I should explain that my gh is open...any bug and their sister can walk in. But I find the mealies and aphids a MUCH bigger problem than spider mites. Mites are altogether a different beast than spiders...Everything and every problem is unique, eh?
Mark, is that Pro-Tekt a sticker spreader? I do use a sticker-spreader (or soap) with my fungicide and miticide/ovicide for better protection/coverage. But I try to use as little of anything as I can!!!!
Wearing a full on respirator is not something I like to see in a mirror!!! Besides, it is uncomfortable and the devil to drink a glass of wine through!
Carol
Pro-tekt is a silicon supplement, maybe with some other elements, I don't recall.
Maybe dunking plants in warm water for a while, as recommended in the Brugsmansia post above, is the easiest (for indoors) and safest method of mite control? I guess everything has it's drawback, except plain old water!
I went around and checked my Hoyas earlier, since we were talking about mites, and sure enough H. linearis has them. Nothing else, though.
anyone else have a mite prob on bella?
Yep....did mine in too. Now I've got cuttings with them. I think pretty much all of the tender leaved hoyas are targets.
Kim
so far, it's the only one (of the hoyas) with mites. It's had it since last year, and I admit to not giving it regular treatment..... (Actually the plant has been in the dark with sporadic watering, so perhaps that's kept the mites in check too.)
Two days in the 60s - trying to get some pest control done on the balcony.
For mealies, I use Neem Oil, and I always put my plants in the bathtub for treatment (water the plant and spray all surfaces of every leaf and stem). Once they dry off (the smell is gone by then too), I put them back in their plant space. I've had mites once, on a plant that was never treated for mealies; I used Neem Oil and it hasn't come back. I haven't done a room-wide treatment since late summer though and the odd hoya pops up with mealies. So I keep an extra eye open when I'm watering or misting for "the bad white stuff", and just use alcohol for the ones I find right now.
My two cents.
Christine
I wish my bathroom had ventilation. All the air in the apartment flows there and then gets stuck - bad karma, if you ask me. Anyway, managed to neem down a couple of hundred plants including some preventative spray, and poured/sprayed some orthene on an orchid cactus cutting that arrived with scale. Ready to hunker down for some winter weather now. Thank goodness for the warm weekend!
Is Di-Syston an imidacloprid? This is what I use for spider mites. However, in reading this thread, I did not realize that losing my hoya, orchid, and angel wing begonia which were right next to my brug cutting someone gave me was caused by mites. However, I am VERY familiar with spider mites and I annot find any on them. But, my brug cutting's leaves are all cupped under and it does not grow. Could these be Broadmites and wil the Di-Syston kill them? I have not used it in this situation, but maybe I should????
Jeanette
Di-syston is a different chemical and is much more of a health hazard. It's worth googling the details.
A quick way to check for webless mites is to swab the back of the leaves with a damp q tip or cotton. If you see a bunch of specks (often orange), you've got mites.
The broad mites we have here are greenish and love to enjoy the flowers forming and new growth. I would never keep anything near Brugs...most of them are spider mite magnets!!!
Ah- your Hawaiin mites are different. In CA the mites are brownish and hang out on the bottom of older leaves. Ours (two spotted-mite?) loves Brugs too, though.
We have brown one, red ones...give me a color...we have em...I will bet!!! The only way I treat brugs with mites (and that is rarely), I strip off all of the leaves, nip the new growth off, throw them all in a plastic bag to burn. Then I Neem the whole brug (or what is left of it), drenching it with Neem....I repeat the application of Neem about 7 days later hoping to get the hatched eggs. And if I am up to it...7 days after that. But, hey...with time constraints...I usually just cut the brug down to the easiest thing to spray and burn the rubbish. Life is too short!
Hoyas...well, I am much more careful.
I read on the Brug forum that someone had real good luck with Avid. However, at $249 per quart I think I would throw the plants out first. I bought 2 OZ of Floramite from a DGer for $17 but it does not claim to kill mites. Just all the rest of the garbage bugs that likes these plants.
BTW, I think it was Keyring a ways back there that said you had scale on something. I think the best thing for scale is Neem oil. It suffocates them. 'Course, it does that to any of the above. LOL That LOL is hysteria.
The best thing for scale (at least, my scale) is orthene. Neem smothers some stages of life, but takes longer to have its full effect.it doesn't work all that well for controlling the kind of flat hard scale I get in the orchids.
Ok, consider me corrected.