Bring in GF cats?

We are waiting for our first hard freeze on Wed. night and while I was "preparing" by mulching and watering I saw a tired and weak mama GF laying eggs on my beaten up vine! I kept telling her that it was going to freeze and not to lay on that vine but she did anyways.

I could only find 2 of the eggs. Will the eggs freeze? I'm not going to worry about them but do need to collect vine for the cats I still have inside. I can't remember, will my vine bite the dust with the first freeze?

My neighbor's vine is covered in cats now, so should I collect them and bring them inside? I'm asking, but I'm sure I will but I could have a food shortage if the vine dies. That would be bad but most of hers are large and could pupate early.

On a previous thread we talked about how the GF would just lay eggs anywhere near the vine and if she did that on purpose. I don't think so. I think the vine has a really strong scent and she just gets close to it. This one was struggling against wind and her age and was doing all she could to just lay the eggs. If she landed near the vine, be it on the fence or a stick, she laid it. If she landed on a stick of Goldenrod she would fly off. She didn't appear to be making a conscious decision, as in protecting them, or she would have laid on the greener vine next to it!

Oh doesn't that just beat it all ..... You've got a cut vine, the GF is laying eggs on it, tons of GF cats on the neighbor's vine, and you have a freeze coming.

You know what, Paige, I would step away from the vine, go into the house, get your jammies on, curl up with a nice cup of hot chocolate, and watch a good chick flick! Okay .... maybe not. Collect a bunch of passionvine that you can throw into a large plastic bin (which you can store in the garage or somewhere), collect the GF cats on your neighbor's vine and get them settled into your cage, and then go pamper yourself! :-) You deserve it!

Can we really save the world one cat or butterfly at a time?

The weather has been really wacky in Florida this Fall, too. That cold front that hit Florida last week set some records. My dh is thinking this is going to be a cold winter. No hurricanes to speak of this past season either. Another bad sign. Colder water. El Nino shifted. Though I would rather have a cold winter than another hurricane hit me. But it's stressful when you are a gardener.

Sometimes you just can't win!

This message was edited Nov 28, 2006 12:07 AM

Paige, since you started this about GFs I thought I would put a link on here that shows the stages of the GF throughout. It helped me know just what I was looking for after I captured my first.
http://www.sasionline.org/fritillary/fritillary2.html
I hope Frostweed sees your thread, she just posted pictures of adult GFs that are on her passion vines just two days ago. Maybe it would encourage her to bring them in.

Oh, there's no mistaking these cats! lol One nice thing about them is they don't vary in colors thru their instars like the Swallowtails.

I feel great guilt if I don't try and save them. Sometimes it is a real pain and I'm ready for them to pupate but I still do it. I might as well start doing it today rather than frantically trying to get it all together tomorrow afternoon when it's cold!

Yes Becky, I guess I am going to try and save the world, one cat at a time. LOL...someone remember this so I can get credit for it someday.

How did your garden do during the cold front that swept across parts of Texas? How many GF did you manage to collect?

The cold front is still here and things are looking worse. This morning it was about 27 and warmed up to like 31 but things were still green and lively. Then it started sleeting and temps dropped some and now the ones that I can see are wilted and looking like they'll be mush.

I can't see the vine from inside. I didn't collect any cats off of mine but cut quite a bit of it off and got 17 or 18 cats from the neighbor. I'm certain they would look like mush like the plants by now.

Brrrr ..... Weird weather? Or this usual for your area this time of year? Being in zone 8b that does sound pretty cold. Glad to hear you saved the GF cats!

Last week's front messed up some of my tender plants, but because we didn't get any freezing temps (low 40's and high 30's) everything survived. Now we are getting a lot of rain. My new pawpaw starter plants are getting yellow leaves from all the rain. Tomorrow is it is supposed to be more sunshine (I hope). My plants may be on my porch in short order if things don't dry up. (Though I have heard rain is predicted after tomorrow for another week at least.) This is unusual weather for us as well. Usually it's drier. At least there are no hurricanes! That's always a plus!=;-O

So far so good with the cats. I finally had a chance to go out and check my vine today. It looks like it got bit on the top but might have some good foliage inside where it was protected. The cats are still eating and starting to make chrysalises now. I went to the neighbor's today and found 2 little cats that I missed. Both were dead and hanging with their front halves off of the leaf, but the back was still holding on. Must be a reflex?

Glad to hear all your GF are doing well! Yes, I find cats like that too. Weird looking. Today I was checking on my Monarchs and there must be a virus going around some of the cats. I found 3 hanging in what was apparently a J, but dead. Like they were getting ready to go into the chrysalis stage but didn't quite make it. One had some gooey stuff dripping off it. Gross! I hate that! Fortunately, I have tons of cats, so I'm not going to fret too much about it. I find sick cats in my gardens too. Must be something in the environment in my yard. I don't use pesticides, so it must be something else. I just chalk it up to cat viruses. It's disappointing. I'd like to see ALL of them make to the butterfly stage.

I have had a couple form the J and die too, I think it's because of the temps. It just doesn't seem like they can handle the cold.

So you two are just leaving yours outside? I found one lone Queen a couple of weeks ago and brought it inside. It was fine until it started to pupate. It was in the J then later it was hanging straight. I gave it some time but it never recovered, and I noticed that it was sunken in on the sides. ? Nothing oozed tho.

I had a GF just suddenly die this week but all the others have been fine. I released 2 today. One of them had eclosed yesterday but it was in the 40's so I kept it inside.

I think the cats hanging in a J had a virus when they attempted to pupate into a chrysalis. I've had several Monarch chrysalis go bad on me over the past 2 weeks. I am sure it is a viruse going around in my yard. The chrysalis started getting all spotty black colored. Another gross thing .... one of the chrysalis had something explode out of it that was wiggling around. I am assuming it was a parasite that was laid inside the cat or chrysalis and then grew big enough to break out. It was soooo gross. Perhaps a parasitic wasp?

I bring all my cats inside when it gets cold and I put the cage in my laundry room where it is the same temp as the house. (It is part of the interior of the house.) I'm still losing some cats/chrysalis despite keeping them inside. Which makes me think it is something other than the cold temps.

Eeeeww, gross!! I'm sorry you had to see that! That's something I've always been afraid of seeing. I think I might just get too grossed out and be afraid of them. aaahhh!! That's one reason I try to bring cats in as soon as I see them-less chance of being parasitized.

I don't think cold temps are causing the spots on the chrysalises. I've never bothered to memorize the actual name of the virus but just refer to as "the dreaded black spot". It's just one of those things that happens and I don't have enough time to do the stuff that some of the sites recommend, to keep it from spreading. I just wash my cages.

OE can cause spots on a Monarch chrysalis, as well as failure to emerge or severe wing problems. If OE is present, the kindest thing to do is to just destroy it. Oh, and sometimes you can see two light spots on the chrysalis of a male Monarch before it fills in, but that's from the two marks on the male Monarch's wings, so be sure it's not that!
http://www.butterflybreeders.org/pages/disease_prevention_what_is_oe.html

How is Ophryocystis elektroskirrha introduced in the first place? Is it by cat frass? Then to offspring...etc?

OE is definitely what I believe is killing many of my cats. Bummer!!!!!

Dumb question here, If A. curassaica is the breeding ground for more of the spores that effect the butterflies, why aren't people growing more of the native type milkweeds.

I do know color has some effect in butterfly preference, that has been proven in some tests with butterfly bushes.

I wonder if planting the native milkweed species and then planting more orange and yellow flowers around it ould be a better way for the butterflies to find it.

Does anybody know has anybody tried for specific breeding of the tropical milkweed with the natives to try and eliminate the spore population of OC on the plants.

I notice d in alot of my reading that those butterflies in the north have lower populations of the disease and one of the contributing factors was the cold and the die back of the plants.

This would be alot of work, but I wonder if starting new plants indoors and constantly changing them with out door plants, might help reduce the spores. Take the outdoor plants, give the tops a weak clorox bath, then cut and dispose of the foliage, and bring the plant indoors and store in fridges to let the plants go dormant and kill any other spores that may be hidden. Then after a dormancy period bring the plants back out. it would mean havign to have another refridgerator , but sems an old used one that was sterilized would work really great for chilling plants and providing fresh clean stock plants. Just an idea and thought I had and one I just might give a try too. I have ahead that has has electricity ad would be able to store a fridge.

What I have not been able to find yet, is how the spores develop on the plants and the causes. Is it from too moist conditions, to highof humidity causing fungi and bacteria, is it a raction to some unknown/known pest that maybe is feeding on the plants and transmitting the virus.

I could be totally wrong in this line of thinking, but since the disease comes from infected milkweed, it seems treating thm first would help reduce the number of infected butterflies and their ultimate death, plus stop contamination to the rest of the group.

Can anybody direct me to the disease in the plant specifically? I am thinking about getting some of the tropical cultivar from that hydropnically grown place and then breeding it with different types of the native and se e what happens. Have to check on the chromosomes present in each cultivar and maybe do an embryo rescue of the seeds.

The big thing would be trying to create the conditions that produce the spores and the disease on the plants. That where I need to try and find info is there is any even available out there.

It seems like an overwhelming task to try to kill the spores.....you could have a clean plant and 5 minutes later an egg could be laid on it and redeposit the spore.
Are you thinking the native is more resistant to the spores? It seems to me like it's attributed to the season change, freezing temps and die back, not so much the species of plant, but I may have missed something.

The situation is grim for the Monarch and Queens, for sure.

Sounds like a good plan Star!

Well, I am also wondering if some Monarchs are more prone to disease. Perhaps eggs/cats laid from an older female Monarch? I also wonder if humidity plays a part? It is very tropical here in Florida and I see what I believe is the disease off and on. Some of my cats make it just fine and some don't. They are all in the same cage. Go figure! I cut my milkweed back to 6 inches above the ground several times a year, because we don't usually get enough cold weather to kill them back. And yes! I use Scarlet Milkweed. (Which by the way has not been invasive in my yard at all, contrary to what some folks say. The Monarchs flock to them!

found this list of some of the other species of the butterfly weed for sale. Anybody grow some of these for their babies?

Asclepias amplexicaulis
Asclepias asperula
Asclepias buchenaviana
Asclepias crispa aff
Asclepias cucullata aff
Asclepias curassavica
Asclepias curassavica Apollo Orange
Asclepias curassavica Apollo Yellow
Asclepias curassavica Red Butterfly
Asclepias curassavica Silky Deep Red
Asclepias curassavica Silky Formula Mix
Asclepias curassavica Silky Gold rs
Asclepias curassavica Silky Scarlet
Asclepias eriocarpa
Asclepias exaltata
Asclepias fruticosa (Gomphocarpus fr
Asclepias hallii
Asclepias incarnata
Asclepias incarnata Cinderella
Asclepias incarnata Ice Ballet (Ice Follies)
Asclepias incarnata Soulmate
Asclepias incarnata white
Asclepias physocarpa (Gomphocarpus phy )
Asclepias purpurascens
Asclepias rubra
Asclepias sp unident
Asclepias speciosa
Asclepias stellifera
Asclepias stellifera Bivane River area Vryheid
Asclepias sullivanti
Asclepias syriaca
Asclepias tuberosa
Asclepias tuberosa Gay Butterflies
Asclepias tuberosa Hello Yellow best golden
Asclepias verticillata
Asclepias viridis

there still more, seems over 150 different types of milkweed, I just haven't located the whole list yet. I am thinking about getting soem of the seed that nobody grows and maybe those of you who capture, feed and save the Monarchs would try some of the seed if I gave it to you, to see how the butterflies take to it and if you see a reduce in death of OE.

becky, I think humidity plays a big part. Wa s readign alot of articles where folks like yourself in the warmer climates were cutting back their plants.

Fly girl. Your right, you aren't goign to be able to kill all the spores. One scientific study said that as long as the spore rate is under, think I read, a1,000 spores the Monarchs will do fine.

Was also surprised to this article that has lot s of other diseases that it might be
http://www.butterflybreeders.com/pages/sterilizationfordiseasecontrol-jg.html

I keep looking at that pic that Texas Puddy Pritn posted of her Malachite and how beautiful it was and I think there has to be something else we can try and do to save even more butterflies.

I Have no experience with capture and release, but I do have with plant propagation and some diseases and I would be glad to grow and then pas s out plants to those who do capture and save the butterflies if I knew all what else to grow that might be even more beneficial to them.

I bought the Monarch Waystation seed kit, which includes A. speciosa, syriaca, incarnata, and pulchara. So, I'm planning on trying these with my established A. curassavica and tuberosa.

I noticed this year the cats prefer the curassavica over the tuberosa. When both plants were in the cage, they would move over to the curassavica. I think it's 'Silky Red'.

Star, can you breed some mw that is resistant to aphids and red spider mites? lol

Starlight - I am game for any kind of milkweed or butterfly weed. In fact, I recently received some native seed in a trade. So in the spring I will definitely be growing other types of milkweed. We'll see if the Monarchs lay their eggs on different milkweed. In all honesty, I can not believe how many Monarch cats I've had on my Scarlet Milkweed over the past 3-4 weeks. Seriously, I probably have about 60 in 2 cages right now. (About 20 are chyrsalis.) And there are still plenty on the plants growing in my yard. I just can't take them all in. Fortunately, the weather has been mild and warm, so I am not worried about the ones in my yard. And the wasps aren't around much lately. I think the last cold snap killed some of them off. But the Monarch cats are chewing all my yard milkweed down to nubs. So when I see one that looks hungry, I either move it to another plant in my yard or bring it in and put in one of the cages. There are so many. Out of all of those, I have probably lost 10-15 to disease or parasites. I wonder if that is better odds than nature provides?

Today, my class released another Monarch butterfly. We had our older buddies visiting and they got to touch and help us release our newest butterfly. Their teacher was just as excited as the kids. lol I was holding the Monarch and let all the students touch it's wings. The kids loved it!!!! Made my day! The other class teacher thought that if you touched a butterfly, the scales on the wings would get rubbed off. She was surprised when I told her that wasn't an issue!

Our butterfly flew off to join 3 other Monarchs around the school gardens. Mostly our garden! ;-) We did clusters of Milkweed for the Monarch and Queens and clusters of Parsley for the Black Swallowtails. You wouldn't believe how many butterflies we see from our classroom window every day. You can't walk through the breezeway without seeing butterflies! That was a rarity before we did our butterfly garden at the school. Everyone loves it!

One of the little girls in my class is a butterfly Mama. She just dotes on the cats and then gets tickled to release the butterflies. Everyday, she has to hold the cats. She told me that whenever she holds them they go poop on her hand! LOL The other day, she kept telling me I NEEDED to hold the cat she had in her hand. I couldn't figure out why, since she loves to hold them. Well, wouldn't ya know .... that cat pooped right on my hand the minute my student placed it on my hand. She laughed and laughed. Then told me that was why she wanted me to hold it. So it would poop on my hand instead of hers. She took the cat back after that. This little girl is so cute..... talks to them, worries about them, and watches everything to make sure they are okay. And she constantly reminds me what I need to do for them. lol

Anyway, educating other people is the way to go! So many people are fascinated and interested once you start telling them about cats and butterflies. We try to educated them on being environmentally aware and what they can do to help. Most people do care.

Fly girl... Ther e is a new type of soil that is gonan be coming out on the market soon. Think it only available, in Flordia and Ga right now and only at certain places. I planted almost two hundred different perennials and annuals and this product showed some resistance to aphids. The soil has natural beneficals in it . They also have a powder form to water with, but found it burned the leave s on some plants.

Aphids are easy to get rid of. Palomive antibacterial dish soap and jet spraying with water. Also does not hurt the beneficals and doesn't leave film on the leaves. Also , cover your beds with wheat straw in the winter instead of pine bark, helps quite a bit. Ther e a chemical composition in the wheat straw that suppresses them from emerging and they starve to death and it sufficates the aphids and thrips so they don't emerge.

Wonder if the one has stronger toxin properties in it or more better smelling sap or something?

What I thinks funny is I would tell my son he had to eat what was served. Yet I will go out of the way to find food for my little ecological system critters.

LOL Becky.. Gues s we was typing at the same time.

I just learned something new today. I thought too if you touched them that they would lose their scales and die. I have never purposly tried to touch the wings of one for that reason. When I get to workign in the yard and out dabbing flowers I get pollen all over me and will have them land on me, but I just let them rest a bit and fly off when they ready. Is that an old wise tale they tell us when we kids to make sure they don't get damaged ?

Only real place to se e butterflie s aroudn here is up at Callaway Gardens in their butterfly house. Don't know who has more fun, the adults or the kid s with butterflies landing all on folks.

Thats so exciting to here. When you can catch their attention when they small it teache s them lessons they can carry on into life. Sounds like you got a real ecologist in that little girl. She sound s precious. : )

I was sitting here reading thru this last night after everyone was asleep and kept hearing this crackling noise, that I recognized as caterpillar munching. I have a fish tank with a few GF cats left in it but the noise was coming from a mesh cage that only had chrysalids in it. I got down and listened for it and then saw a little cat eating a very dry leaf! Poor baby had apparently been an egg when he was put in that cage. I moved him and gave him fresh leaves.

I had one eclose today and it's in the upper 30's and going to be cold again tomorrow so it might have to live inside for a while. There aren't many blooming flowers outside right now either. I'm not sure that bringing them in did them much good because after they eclose and are released they have to hunt for nectar. If they mate then they have to hunt for a live vine, then nectar. I'm not sure I'll be able to just leave them outside to freeze tho.

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Good ideas, but y'all really should start another thread about the Monarch viruses and milkweed since the subject line on this is GF's. Not that I mind if you hijack it ;) but you'll get more input if other people read it.

I just can't take the time to worry about it and do all that to a plant to try to control a possible virus. I have more A. incarnata to try next year and hope to have a few Antelope Horns too. I would use plain dish soap rather than an antibacterial one because those do contain chemicals

Sounds like you have a great class Becky!

I haven't noticed any wasps or predator insects around either, too cold here. I have 2 Monarchs that are in the pavilion but even if I released them what nectar would they find, it's been frosty in the mornings and most everything has turned to mush.

Star, that's interesting about the soil with the beneficials, what kind? Would the beneficials eat the cats too or just aphids?
What is wheat straw? I don't use pine straw because I can't see those #%*&^ fire ants under them until they are all over my arm, so I use pine mulch.

Usually I just spray the aphids with soft mist from the hose and squish as I go, I think the spider mites are harder to get rid of.

For those of you with cold temps, no nectar flowers, and some newly emerged butterflies ...... try feeding them gatorade. Mine liked the fruit punch flavor. That's what I did last year for a month. Not only did they all live 3-4 weeks, but they mated and laid eggs on a Milkweed plant I put in the cage just for that purpose. LOL Monarchs do well in captivity. I don't know how GF or others do, but it's worth a try! They'll surely die outside in freezing temps and no nectar. Just stick with the same flavor of gatorade. (Most butterflies don't like gatorade change.)

I had 18 of them in a cage at once and it was a hoot to hear all the fluttering wings when it was their dinner time! They got in a routine of being fed a couple times a day and knew when I came near the cage that was mealtime! They also drove my kitty cat nuts! He wanted those butterflies soooooo bad! He could look but not touch! Torture for him!!!! It was a neat experience keeping them until their life ended naturally. And they seemed pretty happy! When I would stick my hand in the cage they'd start flying around and landing on my arm. They'd try to climb up my arm to sneak out of the cage. Smart, they are! And more than once I had one escape into the house. But we always got it before my cat did! LOL

Great job paige! That poor little cat..they don't usually like dry leaves at all amazing! Glad you heard that in time.
I took in some cuttings and a frit cat has emerged from an egg on one of them.. Not sure what to do about this one lonely little frit. Guess i will come up with something. sheesh!

I released my one GF today because it was a little warmer than I thought it would be. I always keep watermelon Gatorade around just in case tho.

Something else weird happened today. I was getting some stuff out of the trunk of my car, which was backed into the garage, and something caught my eye on the ground. It was a GF cat! I have no idea where it came from or how it got there, but I brought him inside.

Paige - That's so funny that you actually heard the poor GF chomping on the dried out leaves. Luckily for him, you have good ears! And finding the little fella on the ground ..... seems the winter cats know which house to come to for help! :-) Cat Mama Paige! lol